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Author Topic: Conscious Eternal Torment?  (Read 10691 times)

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Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2011, 03:13:50 PM »
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  For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that?

===============================================

 I think the way you phrase the question may be provocative. The impression is that people want to believe something terrifying or horrific.

 I want to believe what the Bible teaches without being swayed by personal preference one way or another.

============================================
 I just don't understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief.

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 The words concerning eternal punishment of torment came from the same mouth which spoke such words of compassion, mercy, pardon, patience, forgiveness, and redemption.

 For the most part the Person you would have to attribute my belief in eternal perdition to, is Jesus Christ. That same mouth, from whom such words of grace came, also produced the most stern warnings of God's judgment.

 You cannot blame my concept of eternal damnation on someone else. You would have to blame my belief in such a horrific end on Jesus.

 For such a solemn subject, God reserved its delivery mainly to His Son. No one else could be the main communicator of such a vital matter. And Christ Jesus is the main conveyor of that horrific warning.

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 I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.

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  That is an accusation against God. And since every careless word which men utter they will give an account of on the day of judgment, you may be called upon to explain your accusation.

  Jesus said He would be ashamed of the one who is ashamed of Him and His words. Are you ashamed of His words concerning eternal punishment ? Perhaps one day He will ask you why you were ashamed of His words about this.

  ===========================================
 I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  

 =============================================

   I sincerely want to believe what the Bible teaches. I do not want to see first if I like this or like that. In the process of being conformed to the image of Christ, I figure that what I do not now see through God's eyes, I will eventually see.

  When we are fully conformed to the image of Christ we will have the same feeling and opinion. I think I am on the way. I think I am in the process of having my view conformed to His.

   I tried to see it through the eyes of Universalist teachers.  I tried hard. But it didn't work because I found their teaching to have too many errors. And in some cases I found twistings.

   In spite of giving Universalism an honest chance to convince me, it did not.


 ==================================
Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?    
=================================

   I don't think that God has only one side to His attributes. You speak about eternal supreme love. But you do not seem to see that eternal supreme righteousness apparently calls for His retribution against those who follow the Devil and his angels.

  It makes sense that ultimately you have to lose if you will not be reconciled to perfect righteousness. You cannot be annihilated and win that way. You cannot defeat God. You cannot escape into nonexistence. You must lose.

 Eternal perdition is the ultimate losing against perfect righteousness. And as terrible a prospect as it is, there is no other authority beyond, above, transcendent to, or other than God to whom you can appeal.

 Eternal perdition means that the cosmic buck stops somewhere. Beyond that point there is no remedy. Now it may not be as easy to fall into that state as some think. But that there is a final absolute end of the line to the Satanic rebellion, does not surprise me.

  If there is any redemption after being thrown forever into the lake of fire for not having your name written in the book of life, such has not been revealed to me.

 ======================================
I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.  
 
===========================================

  The Bible ends with a great marriage of God and His redeemed creature man. That entity is called the Wife of the Redeeming Lamb and the Bride.

 Do you believe that Christ will marry Satan ? Do you believe that the Devil and his angels and those who will not be reconciled to God will comprise that Wife of the Redeemer ?

  What passage would you point me to to prove that Satan and his hosts will one day comprise the Bride of Christ? I mean if you believe in a universal salvation to all created beings then you must believe that Satan will one day be in the Bride of Christ.

  Eternal perdition is not for the improvement of character. It is for vengeance.
  
 " Rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength." (1 Thess 1:8,9)

  
 Did you see that ? This passage is not about rendering correction or discipline for betterment. It is about revenge. It is about divine "vengeance".

 What we have to do is preach the gospel and pray for the unbelievers to be saved from that.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 03:30:17 PM by Feedmysheep »

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2011, 03:13:50 PM »

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2011, 03:37:04 PM »
Quote
" Rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength." (1 Thess 1:8,9)

Right.  Eternal destruction or eternal conscious torment?

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2011, 03:37:04 PM »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2011, 08:36:45 PM »
  
 
Quote
Right.  Eternal destruction or eternal conscious torment?
 


Romans 3:16 says "Destruction and misery are in their ways."

  This proves that the two matters can coexist at the same time - "destruction and misery".

  So I would take "eternal destruction" in 1 Thessalonians 1:9 to indicate not temporary misery but never ending misery. In other words destruction and misery coexist forever for the one under divine vengence.

  Destruction there means not the loss of being but the loss of well being.  I think the whole post I wrote should have made it clear that I was not advocating annihilationism.

  

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2011, 05:07:17 AM »
Feedmysheep,

re: “The impression is that people want to believe something terrifying or horrific.

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2011, 05:07:17 AM »

larry2

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2011, 06:42:16 AM »

I am not aware of any pronouncements by the Messiah that have to be interpreted as  eternal torment for the unsaved.


Revelation 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2011, 06:42:16 AM »



Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2011, 08:09:11 AM »
 
larry2,

Revelation 20:10 only says that the devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

larry2

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2011, 09:52:52 AM »

larry2,

Revelation 20:10 only says that the devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Do you just want to think bad of God huh? Would a loving God do that to Satan? You don't evidently think that applies to the false prophet and the antichrist. Did you notice that those two are there; not destroyed?

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2011, 10:32:02 AM »
  =====================================
   Feedmysheep,

re: “The impression is that people want to believe something terrifying or horrific.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 11:28:38 AM by Feedmysheep »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2011, 11:12:44 AM »
 =============================
   You choose to interpret “eternal destruction
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 11:33:49 AM by Feedmysheep »

Offline saul

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2011, 12:16:29 PM »
Feedmysheep,

I Not Only like to think your interpretation is correct, But cannot find fault with it whatsoever, so I am giving your sheep Manna.


                                                       ::tippinghat::

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2011, 01:35:57 PM »
Feedmysheep,

I Not Only like to think your interpretation is correct, But cannot find fault with it whatsoever, so I am giving your sheep Manna.


                                                       ::tippinghat::

  Hi.  I do not know about the giving manna procedure. It sounds positive.

  But if anyone else feels positive about my contribution to the discussion I would recommend two books that helped me:

  Eternal Sufffering of the Wicked and Hades  by Robert Govett.

  The Last Assize    by G.H. Lang

   Surf for Schoettle Publishing Co. Inc.

   Because this subject became important to me a few years back I purposely studied these two books to get help. I simply wanted to know what I should believe as the Bible's truth.

Offline OldDad

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2011, 03:03:01 PM »
A great book that gives an alternate view is "The Fire that Consumes" by Edward Fudge.

http://www.edwardfudge.com/written/fire.html


A fine article by Dr. David Reagan covers some of the same territory:

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/reagan/dr5.html

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2011, 07:32:05 AM »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.


I agree, it makes no sense and no scripture supports this pagan-based belief. You can thank the RCC for incorporating this lie into Christianity, along with many other pagan-based lies we still believe and even celebrate today.
Sadly traditional christians have been brainwashed to believe a lie - well, not just one but many.
Most of their 'religious' observances are not based on the Word of God but human traditions.
But to answer the OP there is no eternal torment but there will be annihilation of unbelievers of Truth.

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2011, 06:44:11 AM »
Quote from: Beta


 Sadly traditional christians have been brainwashed to believe a lie - well, not just one but many.
Most of their 'religious' observances are not based on the Word of God but human traditions.
But to answer the OP there is no eternal torment but there will be annihilation of unbelievers of Truth.


 
 

 There are a number of very specific points which you didn't try to address.

  Seekers for the truth need these points answered rather than ignored with a statement of sadness, brainwashing, and religous observances.

  I'd be more impressed by your specific responses to points I raised.

  For example, what would your respond ?

 
Quote from: Feedmysheep

 And any weakening of the phrase forever and ever concerning punishment could logically be leveled at the reign of God forever and ever (See Revelation 11:15).

  If you charge that they cannot be tormented forever and ever in Revelation 20:10 you can also charge that they cannot reign forever and ever in Revelation 22:5.

 Are you willing to be consistent in that regard - that neither tormenting or reigning can be forever and ever ?

  Are you just going to ignore this and lament how I am brainwashed ?
  

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2011, 08:29:56 AM »
Feedmysheep,

re: “ And any weakening of the phrase forever and ever concerning punishment could logically be leveled at the reign of God forever and ever...