Author Topic: Conscious Eternal Torment?  (Read 13844 times)

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Lively Stone

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #35 on: Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 17:00:33 »

Those in torment are the wicked who rejected Christ and are condemned to die for all eternity
and those chosen to reign with Christ are those who have His Spirit which lives for all eternity.
So there are two eternal states - one is for ever dead and the other for ever alive.


Two states: forever living, and forever dying.

No - for ever alive - in Christ shall all be made alive 1Cor.15v22
and for ever dead - and shall be ashes under the feet of the saints Mal.4v3

that my friend is scriptural !

Yes, it's scriptural, but it isn't referring to Hellfire.

People will be alive in hell. Dead people don't weep and gnash teeth.

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 17:35:28 »
Lively Stone,

re:  "Dead people don't weep and gnash teeth."


Please provide the scripture that says how long the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will last. 

Lively Stone

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #37 on: Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 18:26:17 »
Lively Stone,

re:  "Dead people don't weep and gnash teeth."


Please provide the scripture that says how long the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will last. 

Do you have biblical authority to teach that the torment of the Lake of Fire damnation is TEMPORARY?

Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark 9:47-48
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where


      ‘ Their worm does not die
       And the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 20:10
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


everlasting fire - Matthew18:8, 25:41
everlasting punishment - Matthew 25:46
everlasting chains - Jude 1:6
everlasting destruction - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
eternal damnation - Mark 3:29
eternal judgment - Hebrews 6:2
eternal fire - Jude 1:7
unquenchable fire - Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched - Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable - Luke 3:17
shame and everlasting contempt - Daniel 12:2
mist of darkness is reserved for ever - 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever - Jude 1:13

larry2

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 19:04:05 »


Lively Stone,

re:  "Dead people don't weep and gnash teeth."

Please provide the scripture that says how long the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will last. 




Do you have biblical authority to teach that the torment of the Lake of Fire damnation is TEMPORARY?

Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark 9:47-48
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where

      ‘ Their worm does not die
       And the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 20:10
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

everlasting fire - Matthew18:8, 25:41
everlasting punishment - Matthew 25:46
everlasting chains - Jude 1:6
everlasting destruction - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
eternal damnation - Mark 3:29
eternal judgment - Hebrews 6:2
eternal fire - Jude 1:7
unquenchable fire - Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched - Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable - Luke 3:17
shame and everlasting contempt - Daniel 12:2
mist of darkness is reserved for ever - 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever - Jude 1:13



Good post; a keeper. ::tippinghat::

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #39 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 06:03:00 »

People will be alive in hell. Dead people don't weep and gnash teeth.

They will do before they die and while dying. Death does not always come in an instant.

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #39 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 06:03:00 »



Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #40 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 08:46:53 »
Lively Stone,

re: “Do you have biblical authority to teach that the torment of the Lake of Fire damnation is TEMPORARY?

Lively Stone

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #41 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 13:57:17 »

They will do before they die and while dying. Death does not always come in an instant.

You have it all figured out, eh?

I don't think so.

Lively Stone

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #42 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 14:00:13 »
Lively Stone,

re: “Do you have biblical authority to teach that the torment of the Lake of Fire damnation is TEMPORARY?

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #43 on: Fri Jun 17, 2011 - 10:27:06 »
Lively Stone,

re: “Anyone who believes in annihilation is choosing the scenario that least troubles them.

Lively Stone

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #44 on: Fri Jun 17, 2011 - 10:33:24 »
Lively Stone,

re: “Anyone who believes in annihilation is choosing the scenario that least troubles them.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:32:23 by Lively Stone »

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #45 on: Sat Jun 18, 2011 - 03:50:08 »
Lively Stone,

re: “Anyone who believes in annihilation is choosing the scenario that least troubles them.

Offline gospel

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #46 on: Tue Aug 02, 2011 - 12:38:50 »
Lively Stone,

re: “Anyone who believes in annihilation is choosing the scenario that least troubles them.

cs80918

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #47 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 16:01:04 »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.


I know this post is old.


It is not my duty to understand everything, but it is my duty to believe what the bible says.  To the best of my understanding the bible speaks on eternal punishment, so therefore I believe that is what God wants and if God wants that then it is the best plan.

ObeyTheGospel

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #48 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 06:20:25 »
The lost do indeed get eternal punishment, which is eternal death, but not eternal, conscious torment. The wicked shall perish, be consumed, be devoured, die.

Offline Sinead

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #49 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 06:24:08 »
Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 14:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever Revelation 20:10

A dead person isn't able to feel any torment. These people are being tormented and are alive.

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #50 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 07:56:12 »
The lost do indeed get eternal punishment, which is eternal death, but not eternal, conscious torment. The wicked shall perish, be consumed, be devoured, die.
I am with you on that my friend.
Even though the wicked are cast into 'everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels' they do burn up and are not tormented for ever since they are not spirit Mat.25v41....for they will be ashes under the feet of the Saints Mal.4v3.

It is sad to think how perfectly lovely Christians have been led to believe this torturing cruelty for all eternity by a loving Creator.

So when are they wailing and gnashing their teeth ? They do it in 'onbelief of the truth while they are alive.

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #51 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 08:04:26 »

Sinead,

re: “Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #52 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 08:16:12 »

Sinead,

re: “Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #53 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 08:31:23 »
Beta,

re: “It is the false teaching of 'man's immortal soul' that gives people a wrong understanding.


Absolutely.  Although occurring hundreds of times in the Old and New Testaments, in no case is “soul" ever associated with the words "immortal", “immortality", "eternal", "undying", “incorruptible", and like terms implying life without end. 1 Corinthians 15:53 says that a person is not inherently immortal, but rather has to put on immortality. 

cs80918

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #54 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 13:24:49 »
Lively Stone,

re: “Anyone who believes in annihilation is choosing the scenario that least troubles them.

cs80918

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #55 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 13:25:48 »
Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 14:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever Revelation 20:10

A dead person isn't able to feel any torment. These people are being tormented and are alive.

Again we must clarify what this death that the bible speaks of is.

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #56 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 14:50:36 »
Lively Stone,

re: “Anyone who believes in annihilation is choosing the scenario that least troubles them.

Offline FireSword

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #57 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 15:17:29 »
Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 14:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever Revelation 20:10

A dead person isn't able to feel any torment. These people are being tormented and are alive.

The devil feeds on dust, or mans carnality/sins. Without food he would wither and die, for only God has immortality.
The devil has a large belly, so would live for a long time. He may repent in his dying moments and confess that Jesus is Lord.


Offline ajb4

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #58 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 20:28:21 »
Hello to All,

What a blessing that so many are searching the scriptures for answers to these questions.  May God give us all discernment concerning these matters.

It would seem that Matt. 10:28 gives a reasonable distinction between body and soul.  As I am new to this forum, and unfamiliar with this argument against the immortality of the soul, would someone who maintains that position please be kind enough to explain the following;

Since the soul departs the body at (physical, mortal) death, which part of the soul is mortal?

When God made man is His image, what image was it, the mortal or immortal?

Please forgive me if these questions seem curt -- they are not meant that way. I'm really just trying to grasp the nature of the differences at play here.  It seems at first glance that the definition of mortality and eternity, as well as, the nature of the body, soul and spirit may be partly at issue.

Thank you for your indulgence.  God Bless

Offline Sinead

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #59 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:24:45 »

Sinead,

re: “Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #60 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 05:09:23 »

Sinead,

re: “Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.

Offline Sinead

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #61 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 05:22:03 »
That would be true in our mortal bodies but after the judgement we will all be given resurrected bodies that will never die.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #62 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 05:34:53 »
Biblically one of the definitions of "death" is seperation from God.

In Genesis when God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die.

Gen 2.17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #63 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 05:38:38 »
Hello to All,

What a blessing that so many are searching the scriptures for answers to these questions.  May God give us all discernment concerning these matters.

It would seem that Matt. 10:28 gives a reasonable distinction between body and soul.  As I am new to this forum, and unfamiliar with this argument against the immortality of the soul, would someone who maintains that position please be kind enough to explain the following;

Since the soul departs the body at (physical, mortal) death, which part of the soul is mortal?

When God made man is His image, what image was it, the mortal or immortal?

Please forgive me if these questions seem curt -- they are not meant that way. I'm really just trying to grasp the nature of the differences at play here.  It seems at first glance that the definition of mortality and eternity, as well as, the nature of the body, soul and spirit may be partly at issue.

Thank you for your indulgence.  God Bless

Hello new friend,
Do you have a scripture saying that the soul departs the body at death ?
I'll give you a scripture that says : then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and 'the spirit shall return unto God who gave it Eccl.12v7. You will notice it does not mention 'soul. It is important to stick to scripture or we become confused.
Defining Body ,Soul and spirit IS the issue ...you are right. But there is even moire to it not obviously noticed and that is the difference between the spirits.
But let's take it step by step.
Gen.2v7; God formed man of the dust of the ground (the same dust mentioned in Eccl.12v7 and returns to the ground) and God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (which returns unto God at death Eccl.12v7) and this body of dust while it has life and breath IS a living soul. Without life in it the body is a dead soul.
Are you with me so far ? Please state scriptures for difference of opinion.  ::smile::

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #64 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 05:50:10 »
That would be true in our mortal bodies but after the judgement we will all be given resurrected bodies that will never die.

In the 'Judgement the wicked will NOT be given 'immortal bodies ..
only the ' Righteous .
The wicked (incorrigable unrepentant sinners) will die in their 'mortal bodies and become 'ashes under the feet of the Saints Mal.4v3.
We have a loving merciful God who has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. It is necessary because there is no future for 'flesh and blood' people.
We are destined to become 'spirit  or die. There will be no 'life apart from God.

Offline ajb4

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #65 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 09:08:32 »
Thank you for your reply, Beta.

I am trying to follow your thoughts and references, so I beg your patience please.

The scripture I originally referenced was Matt 10:28:

"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.{or, Hell.}"

I had hoped you might explain your understanding of this verse.  If a man is killed, and his fleshly body returns to dust, what is this 'soul' that is not killed (by man), where does it go, and why might it be destroyed in Hell?

Then, would you please explain why the distinction is made between spirit and breath in Job 34:14-15:

"If He set His heart on Himself, If he gathered to Himself His spirit and His breath,
all flesh would perish together, and man would turn again to dust. "

And also, Eccl. 3:18-21, if you please:

"I said in my heart, "As for the sons of men, God tests them, so that they may see that they themselves are like animals.
For that which happens to the sons of men happens to animals. Even one thing happens to them. As the one dies, so the other dies. Yes, they have all one breath; and man has no advantage over the animals: for all is vanity.
All go to one place. All are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, whether it goes downward to the earth?"

Please know, I am not looking for argument here, just understanding the truth and wisdom of our Lord.  I consider it a blessing to be 'searching the scripture to see if it is so' -- I hope you do as well. To be dogmatic on this particular subject seems especially difficult to me.

Thank you again, and God bless

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #66 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 13:21:20 »
Biblically one of the definitions of "death" is seperation from God.

In Genesis when God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die.

Gen 2.17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #67 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 13:33:43 »
Quote
Gen.2v17, Adam certainly died within the day he was created.....but of course it was not a 24 hour day. It was a ' biblical day of 1000 years 2Pet.3v8.
That is over-spiritualizing it.  Take the plain meaning - a 24 hour day.

Peter uses that bit of hyperbole to explain that God exists outside our time limitations.

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #68 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 14:03:28 »
Thank you for your reply, Beta.

I am trying to follow your thoughts and references, so I beg your patience please.

The scripture I originally referenced was Matt 10:28:

"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.{or, Hell.}"

I had hoped you might explain your understanding of this verse.  If a man is killed, and his fleshly body returns to dust, what is this 'soul' that is not killed (by man), where does it go, and why might it be destroyed in Hell?

Then, would you please explain why the distinction is made between spirit and breath in Job 34:14-15:

"If He set His heart on Himself, If he gathered to Himself His spirit and His breath,
all flesh would perish together, and man would turn again to dust. "

And also, Eccl. 3:18-21, if you please:

"I said in my heart, "As for the sons of men, God tests them, so that they may see that they themselves are like animals.
For that which happens to the sons of men happens to animals. Even one thing happens to them. As the one dies, so the other dies. Yes, they have all one breath; and man has no advantage over the animals: for all is vanity.
All go to one place. All are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, whether it goes downward to the earth?"

Please know, I am not looking for argument here, just understanding the truth and wisdom of our Lord.  I consider it a blessing to be 'searching the scripture to see if it is so' -- I hope you do as well. To be dogmatic on this particular subject seems especially difficult to me.

Thank you again, and God bless

Hello again,
I do not claim to know all truth , nobody can, but I'll give you what I understand.
Mat.10v28 is talking about the body and conscious life I believe is the 'spirit in man Job 32v8; Zech.12v1.But this is NOT the Holy Spirit.Every man (person) has a human spirit giving us conscious awareness and the ability to lead a human life.
In the Bible our conscious awareness is referred to as soul which also points to 'life dependant on the function of the body Gen.2v7. We can not have concious life without the body (breathing air, circulating blood etc)
No one can take that life but God. People may kill us but God can bring us back to life until such a time as the second death in the lake of fire.

Job35v14,15; if God takes back our breath and spirit...if he takes back our life Eccl.12v7; we return to dust (we are dead).

Eccl.3v18-21 it just means that basically man is not much better than an animal.

To lift man ABOVE that state we need another spirit added to our human spirit and that other is ' THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD.'

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #69 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 14:13:56 »
Quote
Gen.2v17, Adam certainly died within the day he was created.....but of course it was not a 24 hour day. It was a ' biblical day of 1000 years 2Pet.3v8.
That is over-spiritualizing it.  Take the plain meaning - a 24 hour day.

Peter uses that bit of hyperbole to explain that God exists outside our time limitations.

Man can take scripture any way he likes my dear friend as long as one is still in the time of man...but GOD does things HIS way and HIS Word will prevail. He is not asking our opinion or our approval.
If you see Adam as living in 24 hour days you make God a liar because scripture says he would die in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit...and he did....according to God.