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Author Topic: Conscious Eternal Torment?  (Read 10817 times)

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Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2011, 07:16:18 AM »

Agree with you on this Stephen....
but very many do not.   ::tippinghat::

Erronious teaching of an 'immortal soul is at the bottom of this lie.
When Christ returns all will be revealed and people will see the error of their ways !

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2011, 07:16:18 AM »

Offline ajb4

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #76 on: December 24, 2011, 11:36:29 PM »
Hi Stephen,

Wonderful words of hope -- thank you for your responses.

I wondered if you might explain a couple of verses that I am personally having trouble resolving with your understanding of eternal torment / punishment.

You stated:

'Christians want to believe otherwise. But let's consider another reason why eternal torment makes no sense:

God says, "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:5). God also says, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17). God also says, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).'

I notice the scripture does not say He will be rid of the lake of fire, only that He will create a new heavens and new earth, and that the former things shall not be 'remembered or come to mind'.  Who shall not remember the old things -- the forgiven, or God?  Does God forget the trespasses of the wicked as He does the saved?

Also (in addressing His church) that their pain, death, suffering shall be removed, for those things have passed away (from them). Whose pain and suffering is removed -- that of the forgiven, of the wicked, or of God?  Does not Jesus yet bear the scars of His crucifixion on His glorified body?

Rev. 20:10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev. 20:14 Death and Hades{or, Hell} were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev. 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers,{The word for "sorcerers" here also includes users of potions and drugs.} idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Rev. 21:27 There will in no way enter into it (the holy city) anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev. 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
        14:11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

I know you think that Christians are in error for believing in eternal torment and have difficulty accepting literal death.  The truth is that there are a great number of very competent bible scholars that do not hold your point of view. 

The Matthew Henry commentary on Matt. 25:41-46 states:

"if they (the condemned) must depart, and depart with a curse, may they not go into some place of ease and rest? Will it not be misery enough?  No, there is a punishment of sense as well as loss;  they must depart into fire, into torment as grievous as that of fire is to the body, and much more. this fire is the wrath of the eternal God fastening upon the guilty souls and consciences of sinners that have made themselves fuel for it.  Our God is a consuming fire, and sinners fall immediately into His hands, (Hebrews 10:31, Romans 2:8,9).  If into a fire, may it not be some light or gentle fire?  No, it is a prepared fire; it is a torment ordained of old (Isaiah 30:33) ...In the vessels of wrath He makes His power known; it is a destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power....If into fire, prepared fire, O let it be of short continuance, let them but pass through the fire; No, the fire of God's wrath will be an everlasting fire; a fire that, fastening and preying upon immortal souls, can never go out for want of fuel; and being kindled and burning by the wrath of an immortal God, can never go out,....and the streams of mercy and grace being for ever excluded, there is nothing to extinguish it....If they must be doomed to such a state of endless misery, yet may they have some good company there? No, none but the devil and his angels, their sworn enemies, that helped to bring them to this misery, and will triumph over them in it.  They served the devil while they lived and therefore are justly sentenced to be where he is, as those who served Christ, are taken to be with Him where He is....  The fire is said to be prepared, not primarily for the wicked, as the kingdom is prepared for the righteous; but it was originally prepared for the devil and his angels. If sinners make themselves associates with Satan by indulging their lusts, they may thank themselves if they become sharers in that misery prepared for him (Satan) and his associates.  Calvin notes upon this, that therefore the torment of the damned is said to be prepared for the devil and his angels, to cut off all hope of escaping it; the devil and his angels are already made prisoners in the pit, and can the worms of the earth think to escape?

Walvoord  and Zuck Bible Knowledge Commentary (same verses) states ..

"They will be removed from the earth and cast into 'eternal fire' to undergo eternal punishment.  With all wickedness removed in the Second Advent, the kingdom will begin on earth with only saved individuals in physical bodies constituting the earthly kingdom as King's subjects."

And on Rev. 14:11 says:  "The doctrine of eternal punishment, while unpopular with liberal scholars and difficult to accept, is nevertheless clearly taught in the Bible.  Jesus and the Apostle John say more on this subject than does all the rest of the Bible."

The differing viewpoints perhaps come from a different understanding of who/what is being addressed in certain verses, the spiritual nature of death, and the utter holiness and justice of God. It is my understanding that the eternal God is concerned with the eternal nature of our lives, first and foremost.  Our physical / carnal bodies are but temporary vessels, bound for corruption, yet to be remade incorruptible (for the saved) to participate in the kingdom of God.  God does not need man, nor the love of man, for He was complete without mankind and would remain so if He had allowed all to perish.  That is the wonder of His love, mercy and sacrifice.  But He is Holy, and we are not.  He is a God of wrath as well as a God of love.  We cannot fathom, nor understand, nor judge His 'feelings', as His ways and thoughts are as high above ours as the heavens above the earth. 

When Christ cried out on the cross, "Why have you forsaken me?" was it the physical death, or the separation of His spirit from communion with the Father that He lamented?  Though He did die physically, what fear or distress would He, who had raised the dead Himself and foreknew His physical resurrection, dread? In my understanding, it was that spiritual separation from the Father that led Jesus to lament.  It was THAT death which He tasted for us all, that held eternal significance.  It is THAT death which we as sinners have had in Adam. And, if we are without His grace, we will experience it again at the lake of fire. The second death -- a death that is never finished.  It is we who are concerned with the carnal, temporal and perishable things, having eyes that do not see, and ears that do not hear.

We are made in His image. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  We are soul, body and spirit. That which is eternal is our eternal; that which is mortal and remade, has provided the way for our remaking, and that which speaks to us the things of the kingdom, communes us with His life-giving presence.

Will we then, make God in our image? Do we imagination to judge His judgement, and the deny His righteous punishment of those He called earnestly to save, but who rejected Him for the beast?  If He makes them ashes under His feet, as they burn for eternity, is it not His justice that is served, by rewarding the unrepentant with that which they have chosen?  He will not allow them mercy, for they chose none.  He will not care for them below, as they cared for Satan above Him.  God will remove His redeemed from knowledge, concern and care for the wicked, for it is the eternal smoke of their torment that rises up before Him for ever and ever. He will not forget their sins, for that grace belongs to His children alone.

I admit, it is a most unpleasant consideration, but difficult to dogmatically deny by the scriptures.  It strikes fear into my soul as I study to see if it is so. Let's both pray and make our purpose more sure to share the gospel of truth as often as we are given opportunity, so that we do not see those we have known fall into any other fate than that which we claim in Christ.

My apologies for the length of the post.  God bless you brother.

 
 

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #76 on: December 24, 2011, 11:36:29 PM »

Offline makahiya

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2012, 07:01:30 PM »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.



#1.  I don't want to, but I do because I think God said so.


#2.  "scripture", what inspired scripture do you have ?

1. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe only the original manuscripts were inspired. There are no original manuscripts. KJV All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:                                                  

2. You cannot honestly say “the bible
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 07:20:15 PM by makahiya »

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2012, 05:47:09 AM »
makahiya,

First you say that you believe in eternal torment because you think God said so, but then you seem to question the authenticity of the various translations and versions.   So where do you think “God said so

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2012, 05:47:09 AM »

Offline makahiya

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2012, 02:15:41 PM »
While the entire line of scripture are records, the outstanding record of scripture, and the scripture of final authority is the published text and form of the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bibles.

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2012, 02:15:41 PM »



Delta12

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #80 on: June 02, 2012, 07:11:57 PM »

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #81 on: June 02, 2012, 07:46:25 PM »
makahiya.

re: ...“the scripture of final authority is the published text and form of the AV 1611 KJV...

Offline Lively Stone

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Delta12

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2012, 08:11:05 PM »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.


To be very blunt. Your pet demons really don't like the idea that they are going to burn forever in the lake of fire and to be very honest if you wanted to know their names you could start with a few like this. Denial, Liar, Deceit, Delusion, Self-Delusion, Deception, Rebellion, and so on. The word of God teaches hell is forever and whoever does not abide in the doctrine of Christ doesn't have Him.

Offline Kindle

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2012, 05:36:19 AM »
 ::frown::

And if people differ with you as to what the Scripture is really saying, what then? They all have demons?

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2012, 06:31:06 AM »
Delta12,

re: “The word of God teaches hell is forever...

Offline John 8:32

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #86 on: March 05, 2013, 08:08:48 AM »

The elements shall indeed, be destroyed and the whole Earth as we know it shall perish. But the soul shall not perish.

Yet Jesus says...

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

perish:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Quote
It rather, shall be saved or lost. The soul contained within the resurrected body of the damned shall be punished eternally as per Matt. 25:46 and Rev. 20:10,14,15. The lost find their way into eternal torment alongside the devil and his minions. That's what Scripture teaches. Do I like it? No way... but it is written...

canuck

Mal 4:1  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2  But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The first recorded lie...

Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

But what did God say?

Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: -  X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

And it is reinforced in the New Testament...

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

death:

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Unrepentant sinners, the incorrigibly wicked do not roast forever in an ever burning hell, they are burned completely up with no hope of life ever again.

Offline TruthScientist

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2013, 08:38:02 AM »
Catholica,

re:  "God is simply just."


So you want to believe that justice is being served by torturing a person forever because during the person’s short lifetime they didn’t meet the requirements for salvation.  I simply do not understand why you want to believe that.  If the supreme being can annihilate a person, why not do it?  Who benefits from everlasting suffering? What does it accomplish?

When I was a teen and in my 20s I did not consider God in any of my life's works.  I was raised a baptist but did not know Jesus or any of the teachings except to "be good"...  I knew nothing of anihilism but found later that this was what my life was based on.  I did think that the God that I had heard of would 'save' or bring the good people back to life and leave the bad people to rot in the grave. 

I was so inthwralled with the pleasures of the flesh and making myself into something that people would relish that I felt that enjoying myself now in the present and taking a chance on what might happen later was not in my best interest.  Imagine if the world believed that you can chose to do as you please to people because you eventually will be squished out of existance... 

Offline willieH

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #88 on: September 03, 2013, 04:06:50 PM »
The time for mercy is now, and later the judgment.  At the judgment, justice.

NOW is a good position to name The MERCY of YHVH, which endures FOREVER -- Psalm 136 (whole chapter) -- which means that His MERCY extends in ALL, and in ALL DIRECTIONS ...ALL the time. 


JUDGMENT however, ....according to WORDS of the Savior:  ...JESUS said the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD, is NOW -- John 12:31 -- not "later".


Also, the Scriptures report that when the JUDGMENT of YHVH is in the Earth... the INHABITANTS therein will ...LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS -- Isaiah 26:9


JUDGMENT is not a "threat"!   ....it is indeed a pathway set unto RIGHTEOUSNESS... as it is how YHVH leads us to repentance -- Rom 2:4


PEACE...   ::reading::   ...willieH

Offline BWST

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #89 on: September 05, 2013, 10:46:44 AM »
Willie, I was looking at Rom 2:4 again and the verses around it.  It looks to me in this passage that its not judgement that leads us to repentance, but His kindness/forebearence/patience - a delay of judgement. 

I agree with you on the other passages you cited, but this one seems to have a different focus, on corrective judgement at the last day.  See verse 5.

Jeff