Author Topic: Conscious Eternal Torment?  (Read 14253 times)

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Offline rstrats

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Conscious Eternal Torment?
« on: Thu Jul 29, 2010 - 11:39:23 »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #1 on: Tue Aug 03, 2010 - 00:22:47 »

Thinking as you do, why would God indeed show any emotion or produce correction to any Jesus died for. Isn't God LOVE? Wouldn't you rather think of Him in that way?

Offline rarejewel

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #2 on: Tue Aug 17, 2010 - 15:25:20 »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.


I agree, it makes no sense and no scripture supports this pagan-based belief. You can thank the RCC for incorporating this lie into Christianity, along with many other pagan-based lies we still believe and even celebrate today.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Aug 27, 2010 - 18:59:45 »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that?
Perhaps they don't want to.  But they think it's right anyway.

Offline OUmillenium

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Aug 30, 2010 - 09:15:42 »
So what do these SCRIPTURES (NIV) refer to?...

Matt 3:10  The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matt 3:12  His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Matt 5:20  For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 5:22  But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matt 5:29  If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matt 6: 1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

Matt 6:4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Matt 7:1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Matt 7: 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matt 7: 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

These are just a few scriptures from 1 book of 66 that speak of God enacting justice = reward for the righteous and punishment for the unrighteous/disbelivers.

How can a "Christian" denounce that the almighty God doesn't have a place called Heaven reserved for the righteous and a place called Hell reserved for the unrighteous/unbelievers?

Not saying that works will get you to Heaven, they are simply the result of true faith.  But that is a different discussion.



modify - not sure what happened with all the bolding

Offline Catholica

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #5 on: Tue Aug 31, 2010 - 13:57:35 »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that?
I believe in it for the only reason there is to believe in anything, and that is, because its true.

I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief.
I think that there is clear scripture.

I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?
He is not a heartless monster.  God is simply just.  In order to gain God in heaven, we receive God himself who is an infinite reward.  If we reject God on Earth, we reject God, and so lose him, which is infinite loss.  The physical torments of hell will actually help a person not focus upon the worst torment possible, which is living completely absent of God.


I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.
The time for mercy is now, and later the judgment.  At the judgment, justice.

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #6 on: Tue Aug 31, 2010 - 15:36:29 »
Catholica,

re:  "God is simply just."


So you want to believe that justice is being served by torturing a person forever because during the person’s short lifetime they didn’t meet the requirements for salvation.  I simply do not understand why you want to believe that.  If the supreme being can annihilate a person, why not do it?  Who benefits from everlasting suffering? What does it accomplish?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #7 on: Tue Aug 31, 2010 - 16:07:13 »
So you want to believe that justice is being served by torturing a person forever because during the person’s short lifetime they didn’t meet the requirements for salvation.  I simply do not understand why you want to believe that.
Well, I only want to believe the truth, no matter what it is.  I can believe whatever I choose, I suppose, but it makes little difference in the end when we see the real situation.

A person ends up damned not because God did not give them sufficient grace to be saved, but rather because they rejected that grace.  No one will be able to stand up at the general judgment and blame God for his final state.  It would be unjust for God to send someone to hell if He did not also give them the means to attain heaven.  So anyone who is in hell decided to go there, decided to separate themselves from God for eternity.  The torment is God's mercy that will keep them from realizing the much worse evil, which is eternal loss of God.

If the supreme being can annihilate a person, why not do it?  Who benefits from everlasting suffering? What does it accomplish?
Maybe to indirectly answer your question, I can first turn it around.  I think that we can agree that the scriptures are clear, that some people go on to some (at least) temporal torment.  If the supreme being can annihilate a person, why not do it immediately upon death?  Who benefits from that suffering torment?  What does it accomplish?

Since God is infinite good, sinning against God is an infinite offense.  Thus hell being eternal is the just judgment for an infinite offense for a person who refused to accept God's mercy.

The reason that Hell is eternal is because God is just.  Because there is heaven, there is also hell.  Heaven being an infinite good for a person, hell becomes the infinite bad.  Since God is just, then if he were to annihilate those in hell, he would also have to annihilate those in heaven.  To have an imbalance would not be just, and so God would not be just.  Thus we gain the infinite good, eternal union with God, if we are saved, and we lose the infinite good unto eternal separation from God if we are not.

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #8 on: Tue Aug 31, 2010 - 18:11:04 »

per•ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per•ished, per•ish•ing, per•ish•es. --intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate. --tr. To bring to destruction; destroy. --idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.


John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Sodom and Gommorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, they are no more, they perished.






Offline canuck

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #9 on: Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 13:18:20 »

per•ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per•ished, per•ish•ing, per•ish•es. --intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate. --tr. To bring to destruction; destroy. --idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.


John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Sodom and Gommorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, they are no more, they perished.


The elements shall indeed, be destroyed and the whole Earth as we know it shall perish. But the soul shall not perish. It rather, shall be saved or lost. The soul contained within the resurrected body of the damned shall be punished eternally as per Matt. 25:46 and Rev. 20:10,14,15. The lost find their way into eternal torment alongside the devil and his minions. That's what Scripture teaches. Do I like it? No way... but it is written...

canuck

Offline rezar

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #10 on: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 11:41:55 »

If Jesus was speaking about endless torment or annihilation on "judgment day" in scripture- then how can there be "levels" or "degrees" of punishment? Isn't annihilation or endless torment a fact FOR ALL across the unbelieving board on judgment day? How can these verses, for example be applied or true, if Jesus is referring to the afterlife on "judgment day" that you believe He's referring to?

Matt.11:21-24,
21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.

Offline SAO77

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #11 on: Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 12:23:41 »
Here's something to ponder. God will put into the Lake of Fire those who have sinned, and their punishment will be according to their deeds (length of punishment) then it will burn them up (Malachi 4:1).

Offline John D

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #12 on: Fri Oct 15, 2010 - 14:49:20 »
The gospel of Jesus Christ is not about Hell, it is about the Kingdom of God. If man willingly ignore God's saving Grace while dangling over the edge of a cliff, than I guess he made the choice to fall. The question can be asked: Why only portray the one side of God. He is perfect in Grace, perfect in Love, perfect in Holiness, Perfect in Judgment, Perfect in all He do.
Man was created as an eternal being, so the argument of "a few earthly years" is not valid. You choose your eternity NOW. Why don't people just obey and get it over with? Why challenge God? He will stay God, no matter what man say, do or believe.
Hell is man's natural destination - he bought the ticket!
God is the one saying: Repent - don't go there!
So I guess it is: "Turn or Burn"

Offline OUmillenium

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #13 on: Mon Oct 18, 2010 - 08:20:44 »
I agree.

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #14 on: Fri Dec 24, 2010 - 14:26:17 »
The gospel of Jesus Christ is not about Hell, it is about the Kingdom of God. If man willingly ignore God's saving Grace while dangling over the edge of a cliff, than I guess he made the choice to fall. The question can be asked: Why only portray the one side of God. He is perfect in Grace, perfect in Love, perfect in Holiness, Perfect in Judgment, Perfect in all He do.
Man was created as an eternal being, so the argument of "a few earthly years" is not valid. You choose your eternity NOW. Why don't people just obey and get it over with? Why challenge God? He will stay God, no matter what man say, do or believe.
Hell is man's natural destination - he bought the ticket!
God is the one saying: Repent - don't go there!
So I guess it is: "Turn or Burn"


[“The Wages of Sin is Death

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #15 on: Mon Mar 14, 2011 - 16:13:50 »
===============================================
  For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that?

===============================================

 I think the way you phrase the question may be provocative. The impression is that people want to believe something terrifying or horrific.

 I want to believe what the Bible teaches without being swayed by personal preference one way or another.

============================================
 I just don't understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief.

===========================================

 The words concerning eternal punishment of torment came from the same mouth which spoke such words of compassion, mercy, pardon, patience, forgiveness, and redemption.

 For the most part the Person you would have to attribute my belief in eternal perdition to, is Jesus Christ. That same mouth, from whom such words of grace came, also produced the most stern warnings of God's judgment.

 You cannot blame my concept of eternal damnation on someone else. You would have to blame my belief in such a horrific end on Jesus.

 For such a solemn subject, God reserved its delivery mainly to His Son. No one else could be the main communicator of such a vital matter. And Christ Jesus is the main conveyor of that horrific warning.

==========================================
 I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.

==========================================

  That is an accusation against God. And since every careless word which men utter they will give an account of on the day of judgment, you may be called upon to explain your accusation.

  Jesus said He would be ashamed of the one who is ashamed of Him and His words. Are you ashamed of His words concerning eternal punishment ? Perhaps one day He will ask you why you were ashamed of His words about this.

  ===========================================
 I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  

 =============================================

   I sincerely want to believe what the Bible teaches. I do not want to see first if I like this or like that. In the process of being conformed to the image of Christ, I figure that what I do not now see through God's eyes, I will eventually see.

  When we are fully conformed to the image of Christ we will have the same feeling and opinion. I think I am on the way. I think I am in the process of having my view conformed to His.

   I tried to see it through the eyes of Universalist teachers.  I tried hard. But it didn't work because I found their teaching to have too many errors. And in some cases I found twistings.

   In spite of giving Universalism an honest chance to convince me, it did not.


 ==================================
Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?    
=================================

   I don't think that God has only one side to His attributes. You speak about eternal supreme love. But you do not seem to see that eternal supreme righteousness apparently calls for His retribution against those who follow the Devil and his angels.

  It makes sense that ultimately you have to lose if you will not be reconciled to perfect righteousness. You cannot be annihilated and win that way. You cannot defeat God. You cannot escape into nonexistence. You must lose.

 Eternal perdition is the ultimate losing against perfect righteousness. And as terrible a prospect as it is, there is no other authority beyond, above, transcendent to, or other than God to whom you can appeal.

 Eternal perdition means that the cosmic buck stops somewhere. Beyond that point there is no remedy. Now it may not be as easy to fall into that state as some think. But that there is a final absolute end of the line to the Satanic rebellion, does not surprise me.

  If there is any redemption after being thrown forever into the lake of fire for not having your name written in the book of life, such has not been revealed to me.

 ======================================
I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.  
 
===========================================

  The Bible ends with a great marriage of God and His redeemed creature man. That entity is called the Wife of the Redeeming Lamb and the Bride.

 Do you believe that Christ will marry Satan ? Do you believe that the Devil and his angels and those who will not be reconciled to God will comprise that Wife of the Redeemer ?

  What passage would you point me to to prove that Satan and his hosts will one day comprise the Bride of Christ? I mean if you believe in a universal salvation to all created beings then you must believe that Satan will one day be in the Bride of Christ.

  Eternal perdition is not for the improvement of character. It is for vengeance.
  
 " Rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength." (1 Thess 1:8,9)

  
 Did you see that ? This passage is not about rendering correction or discipline for betterment. It is about revenge. It is about divine "vengeance".

 What we have to do is preach the gospel and pray for the unbelievers to be saved from that.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 14, 2011 - 16:30:17 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #16 on: Mon Mar 14, 2011 - 16:37:04 »
Quote
" Rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength." (1 Thess 1:8,9)

Right.  Eternal destruction or eternal conscious torment?

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #17 on: Mon Mar 14, 2011 - 21:36:45 »
  
 
Quote
Right.  Eternal destruction or eternal conscious torment?
 


Romans 3:16 says "Destruction and misery are in their ways."

  This proves that the two matters can coexist at the same time - "destruction and misery".

  So I would take "eternal destruction" in 1 Thessalonians 1:9 to indicate not temporary misery but never ending misery. In other words destruction and misery coexist forever for the one under divine vengence.

  Destruction there means not the loss of being but the loss of well being.  I think the whole post I wrote should have made it clear that I was not advocating annihilationism.

  

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #18 on: Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 06:07:17 »
Feedmysheep,

re: “The impression is that people want to believe something terrifying or horrific.

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #19 on: Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 07:42:16 »

I am not aware of any pronouncements by the Messiah that have to be interpreted as  eternal torment for the unsaved.


Revelation 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #20 on: Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 09:09:11 »
 
larry2,

Revelation 20:10 only says that the devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

larry2

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #21 on: Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 10:52:52 »

larry2,

Revelation 20:10 only says that the devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Do you just want to think bad of God huh? Would a loving God do that to Satan? You don't evidently think that applies to the false prophet and the antichrist. Did you notice that those two are there; not destroyed?

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #22 on: Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 11:32:02 »
  =====================================
   Feedmysheep,

re: “The impression is that people want to believe something terrifying or horrific.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 12:28:38 by Feedmysheep »

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #23 on: Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 12:12:44 »
 =============================
   You choose to interpret “eternal destruction
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 12:33:49 by Feedmysheep »

Offline saul

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #24 on: Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 13:16:29 »
Feedmysheep,

I Not Only like to think your interpretation is correct, But cannot find fault with it whatsoever, so I am giving your sheep Manna.


                                                       ::tippinghat::

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #25 on: Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 14:35:57 »
Feedmysheep,

I Not Only like to think your interpretation is correct, But cannot find fault with it whatsoever, so I am giving your sheep Manna.


                                                       ::tippinghat::

  Hi.  I do not know about the giving manna procedure. It sounds positive.

  But if anyone else feels positive about my contribution to the discussion I would recommend two books that helped me:

  Eternal Sufffering of the Wicked and Hades  by Robert Govett.

  The Last Assize    by G.H. Lang

   Surf for Schoettle Publishing Co. Inc.

   Because this subject became important to me a few years back I purposely studied these two books to get help. I simply wanted to know what I should believe as the Bible's truth.

Offline OldDad

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #26 on: Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 16:03:01 »
A great book that gives an alternate view is "The Fire that Consumes" by Edward Fudge.

http://www.edwardfudge.com/written/fire.html


A fine article by Dr. David Reagan covers some of the same territory:

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/reagan/dr5.html

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #27 on: Fri May 27, 2011 - 08:32:05 »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.


I agree, it makes no sense and no scripture supports this pagan-based belief. You can thank the RCC for incorporating this lie into Christianity, along with many other pagan-based lies we still believe and even celebrate today.
Sadly traditional christians have been brainwashed to believe a lie - well, not just one but many.
Most of their 'religious' observances are not based on the Word of God but human traditions.
But to answer the OP there is no eternal torment but there will be annihilation of unbelievers of Truth.

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #28 on: Mon Jun 06, 2011 - 07:44:11 »
Quote from: Beta


 Sadly traditional christians have been brainwashed to believe a lie - well, not just one but many.
Most of their 'religious' observances are not based on the Word of God but human traditions.
But to answer the OP there is no eternal torment but there will be annihilation of unbelievers of Truth.


 
 

 There are a number of very specific points which you didn't try to address.

  Seekers for the truth need these points answered rather than ignored with a statement of sadness, brainwashing, and religous observances.

  I'd be more impressed by your specific responses to points I raised.

  For example, what would your respond ?

 
Quote from: Feedmysheep

 And any weakening of the phrase forever and ever concerning punishment could logically be leveled at the reign of God forever and ever (See Revelation 11:15).

  If you charge that they cannot be tormented forever and ever in Revelation 20:10 you can also charge that they cannot reign forever and ever in Revelation 22:5.

 Are you willing to be consistent in that regard - that neither tormenting or reigning can be forever and ever ?

  Are you just going to ignore this and lament how I am brainwashed ?
  

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #29 on: Mon Jun 06, 2011 - 09:29:56 »
Feedmysheep,

re: “ And any weakening of the phrase forever and ever concerning punishment could logically be leveled at the reign of God forever and ever...

Offline Feedmysheep

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #30 on: Mon Jun 06, 2011 - 10:24:56 »
Quote from: rstrats


     Actually the issue shouldn’t be over the words “forever and ever“or “everlasting
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 06, 2011 - 11:30:17 by Feedmysheep »

Lively Stone

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #31 on: Mon Jun 06, 2011 - 10:58:27 »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?



Revelation 14:11
The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #32 on: Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 02:38:48 »
Quote from: Beta


 Sadly traditional christians have been brainwashed to believe a lie - well, not just one but many.
Most of their 'religious' observances are not based on the Word of God but human traditions.
But to answer the OP there is no eternal torment but there will be annihilation of unbelievers of Truth.


 
 

 There are a number of very specific points which you didn't try to address.

  Seekers for the truth need these points answered rather than ignored with a statement of sadness, brainwashing, and religous observances.

  I'd be more impressed by your specific responses to points I raised.

  For example, what would your respond ?

 
Quote from: Feedmysheep

 And any weakening of the phrase forever and ever concerning punishment could logically be leveled at the reign of God forever and ever (See Revelation 11:15).

  If you charge that they cannot be tormented forever and ever in Revelation 20:10 you can also charge that they cannot reign forever and ever in Revelation 22:5.

 Are you willing to be consistent in that regard - that neither tormenting or reigning can be forever and ever ?

  Are you just going to ignore this and lament how I am brainwashed ?
  
'Tormenting' and 'Reigning' is not speaking of the same class of people therefore it affects them differently.
Those in torment are the wicked who rejected Christ and are condemned to die for all eternity
and those chosen to reign with Christ are those who have His Spirit which lives for all eternity.
So there are two eternal states - one is for ever dead and the other for ever alive.

Lively Stone

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #33 on: Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 15:53:42 »

Those in torment are the wicked who rejected Christ and are condemned to die for all eternity
and those chosen to reign with Christ are those who have His Spirit which lives for all eternity.
So there are two eternal states - one is for ever dead and the other for ever alive.


Two states: forever living, and forever dying.

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #34 on: Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 16:15:21 »

Those in torment are the wicked who rejected Christ and are condemned to die for all eternity
and those chosen to reign with Christ are those who have His Spirit which lives for all eternity.
So there are two eternal states - one is for ever dead and the other for ever alive.


Two states: forever living, and forever dying.

No - for ever alive - in Christ shall all be made alive 1Cor.15v22
and for ever dead - and shall be ashes under the feet of the saints Mal.4v3

that my friend is scriptural !

 

     
anything