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Christian Interests => Non-Traditional Theology => Theology Forum => Annihilationism => Topic started by: rstrats on Thu Jul 29, 2010 - 11:39:23

Title: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Thu Jul 29, 2010 - 11:39:23
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: larry2 on Tue Aug 03, 2010 - 00:22:47

Thinking as you do, why would God indeed show any emotion or produce correction to any Jesus died for. Isn't God LOVE? Wouldn't you rather think of Him in that way?
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rarejewel on Tue Aug 17, 2010 - 15:25:20
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.


I agree, it makes no sense and no scripture supports this pagan-based belief. You can thank the RCC for incorporating this lie into Christianity, along with many other pagan-based lies we still believe and even celebrate today.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Aug 27, 2010 - 18:59:45
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that?
Perhaps they don't want to.  But they think it's right anyway.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: OUmillenium on Mon Aug 30, 2010 - 09:15:42
So what do these SCRIPTURES (NIV) refer to?...

Matt 3:10  The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matt 3:12  His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Matt 5:20  For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 5:22  But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matt 5:29  If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matt 6: 1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

Matt 6:4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Matt 7:1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Matt 7: 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matt 7: 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

These are just a few scriptures from 1 book of 66 that speak of God enacting justice = reward for the righteous and punishment for the unrighteous/disbelivers.

How can a "Christian" denounce that the almighty God doesn't have a place called Heaven reserved for the righteous and a place called Hell reserved for the unrighteous/unbelievers?

Not saying that works will get you to Heaven, they are simply the result of true faith.  But that is a different discussion.



modify - not sure what happened with all the bolding
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Catholica on Tue Aug 31, 2010 - 13:57:35
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that?
I believe in it for the only reason there is to believe in anything, and that is, because its true.

I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief.
I think that there is clear scripture.

I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?
He is not a heartless monster.  God is simply just.  In order to gain God in heaven, we receive God himself who is an infinite reward.  If we reject God on Earth, we reject God, and so lose him, which is infinite loss.  The physical torments of hell will actually help a person not focus upon the worst torment possible, which is living completely absent of God.


I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.
The time for mercy is now, and later the judgment.  At the judgment, justice.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Tue Aug 31, 2010 - 15:36:29
Catholica,

re:  "God is simply just."


So you want to believe that justice is being served by torturing a person forever because during the person’s short lifetime they didn’t meet the requirements for salvation.  I simply do not understand why you want to believe that.  If the supreme being can annihilate a person, why not do it?  Who benefits from everlasting suffering? What does it accomplish?
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Catholica on Tue Aug 31, 2010 - 16:07:13
So you want to believe that justice is being served by torturing a person forever because during the person’s short lifetime they didn’t meet the requirements for salvation.  I simply do not understand why you want to believe that.
Well, I only want to believe the truth, no matter what it is.  I can believe whatever I choose, I suppose, but it makes little difference in the end when we see the real situation.

A person ends up damned not because God did not give them sufficient grace to be saved, but rather because they rejected that grace.  No one will be able to stand up at the general judgment and blame God for his final state.  It would be unjust for God to send someone to hell if He did not also give them the means to attain heaven.  So anyone who is in hell decided to go there, decided to separate themselves from God for eternity.  The torment is God's mercy that will keep them from realizing the much worse evil, which is eternal loss of God.

If the supreme being can annihilate a person, why not do it?  Who benefits from everlasting suffering? What does it accomplish?
Maybe to indirectly answer your question, I can first turn it around.  I think that we can agree that the scriptures are clear, that some people go on to some (at least) temporal torment.  If the supreme being can annihilate a person, why not do it immediately upon death?  Who benefits from that suffering torment?  What does it accomplish?

Since God is infinite good, sinning against God is an infinite offense.  Thus hell being eternal is the just judgment for an infinite offense for a person who refused to accept God's mercy.

The reason that Hell is eternal is because God is just.  Because there is heaven, there is also hell.  Heaven being an infinite good for a person, hell becomes the infinite bad.  Since God is just, then if he were to annihilate those in hell, he would also have to annihilate those in heaven.  To have an imbalance would not be just, and so God would not be just.  Thus we gain the infinite good, eternal union with God, if we are saved, and we lose the infinite good unto eternal separation from God if we are not.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Amo on Tue Aug 31, 2010 - 18:11:04

per•ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per•ished, per•ish•ing, per•ish•es. --intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate. --tr. To bring to destruction; destroy. --idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.


John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gommorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, they are no more, they perished.





Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: canuck on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 13:18:20

per•ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per•ished, per•ish•ing, per•ish•es. --intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate. --tr. To bring to destruction; destroy. --idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.


John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gommorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, they are no more, they perished.


The elements shall indeed, be destroyed and the whole Earth as we know it shall perish. But the soul shall not perish. It rather, shall be saved or lost. The soul contained within the resurrected body of the damned shall be punished eternally as per Matt. 25:46 and Rev. 20:10,14,15. The lost find their way into eternal torment alongside the devil and his minions. That's what Scripture teaches. Do I like it? No way... but it is written...

canuck
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rezar on Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 11:41:55

If Jesus was speaking about endless torment or annihilation on "judgment day" in scripture- then how can there be "levels" or "degrees" of punishment? Isn't annihilation or endless torment a fact FOR ALL across the unbelieving board on judgment day? How can these verses, for example be applied or true, if Jesus is referring to the afterlife on "judgment day" that you believe He's referring to?

Matt.11:21-24,
21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: SAO77 on Sat Sep 11, 2010 - 12:23:41
Here's something to ponder. God will put into the Lake of Fire those who have sinned, and their punishment will be according to their deeds (length of punishment) then it will burn them up (Malachi 4:1).
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: John D on Fri Oct 15, 2010 - 14:49:20
The gospel of Jesus Christ is not about Hell, it is about the Kingdom of God. If man willingly ignore God's saving Grace while dangling over the edge of a cliff, than I guess he made the choice to fall. The question can be asked: Why only portray the one side of God. He is perfect in Grace, perfect in Love, perfect in Holiness, Perfect in Judgment, Perfect in all He do.
Man was created as an eternal being, so the argument of "a few earthly years" is not valid. You choose your eternity NOW. Why don't people just obey and get it over with? Why challenge God? He will stay God, no matter what man say, do or believe.
Hell is man's natural destination - he bought the ticket!
God is the one saying: Repent - don't go there!
So I guess it is: "Turn or Burn"
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: OUmillenium on Mon Oct 18, 2010 - 08:20:44
I agree.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: n2thelight on Fri Dec 24, 2010 - 14:26:17
The gospel of Jesus Christ is not about Hell, it is about the Kingdom of God. If man willingly ignore God's saving Grace while dangling over the edge of a cliff, than I guess he made the choice to fall. The question can be asked: Why only portray the one side of God. He is perfect in Grace, perfect in Love, perfect in Holiness, Perfect in Judgment, Perfect in all He do.
Man was created as an eternal being, so the argument of "a few earthly years" is not valid. You choose your eternity NOW. Why don't people just obey and get it over with? Why challenge God? He will stay God, no matter what man say, do or believe.
Hell is man's natural destination - he bought the ticket!
God is the one saying: Repent - don't go there!
So I guess it is: "Turn or Burn"


[“The Wages of Sin is Death
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Feedmysheep on Mon Mar 14, 2011 - 16:13:50
===============================================
  For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that?

===============================================

 I think the way you phrase the question may be provocative. The impression is that people want to believe something terrifying or horrific.

 I want to believe what the Bible teaches without being swayed by personal preference one way or another.

============================================
 I just don't understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief.

===========================================

 The words concerning eternal punishment of torment came from the same mouth which spoke such words of compassion, mercy, pardon, patience, forgiveness, and redemption.

 For the most part the Person you would have to attribute my belief in eternal perdition to, is Jesus Christ. That same mouth, from whom such words of grace came, also produced the most stern warnings of God's judgment.

 You cannot blame my concept of eternal damnation on someone else. You would have to blame my belief in such a horrific end on Jesus.

 For such a solemn subject, God reserved its delivery mainly to His Son. No one else could be the main communicator of such a vital matter. And Christ Jesus is the main conveyor of that horrific warning.

==========================================
 I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.

==========================================

  That is an accusation against God. And since every careless word which men utter they will give an account of on the day of judgment, you may be called upon to explain your accusation.

  Jesus said He would be ashamed of the one who is ashamed of Him and His words. Are you ashamed of His words concerning eternal punishment ? Perhaps one day He will ask you why you were ashamed of His words about this.

  ===========================================
 I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  

 =============================================

   I sincerely want to believe what the Bible teaches. I do not want to see first if I like this or like that. In the process of being conformed to the image of Christ, I figure that what I do not now see through God's eyes, I will eventually see.

  When we are fully conformed to the image of Christ we will have the same feeling and opinion. I think I am on the way. I think I am in the process of having my view conformed to His.

   I tried to see it through the eyes of Universalist teachers.  I tried hard. But it didn't work because I found their teaching to have too many errors. And in some cases I found twistings.

   In spite of giving Universalism an honest chance to convince me, it did not.


 ==================================
Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?    
=================================

   I don't think that God has only one side to His attributes. You speak about eternal supreme love. But you do not seem to see that eternal supreme righteousness apparently calls for His retribution against those who follow the Devil and his angels.

  It makes sense that ultimately you have to lose if you will not be reconciled to perfect righteousness. You cannot be annihilated and win that way. You cannot defeat God. You cannot escape into nonexistence. You must lose.

 Eternal perdition is the ultimate losing against perfect righteousness. And as terrible a prospect as it is, there is no other authority beyond, above, transcendent to, or other than God to whom you can appeal.

 Eternal perdition means that the cosmic buck stops somewhere. Beyond that point there is no remedy. Now it may not be as easy to fall into that state as some think. But that there is a final absolute end of the line to the Satanic rebellion, does not surprise me.

  If there is any redemption after being thrown forever into the lake of fire for not having your name written in the book of life, such has not been revealed to me.

 ======================================
I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.  
 
===========================================

  The Bible ends with a great marriage of God and His redeemed creature man. That entity is called the Wife of the Redeeming Lamb and the Bride.

 Do you believe that Christ will marry Satan ? Do you believe that the Devil and his angels and those who will not be reconciled to God will comprise that Wife of the Redeemer ?

  What passage would you point me to to prove that Satan and his hosts will one day comprise the Bride of Christ? I mean if you believe in a universal salvation to all created beings then you must believe that Satan will one day be in the Bride of Christ.

  Eternal perdition is not for the improvement of character. It is for vengeance.
  
 " Rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength." (1 Thess 1:8,9)

  
 Did you see that ? This passage is not about rendering correction or discipline for betterment. It is about revenge. It is about divine "vengeance".

 What we have to do is preach the gospel and pray for the unbelievers to be saved from that.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Mere Nick on Mon Mar 14, 2011 - 16:37:04
Quote
" Rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength." (1 Thess 1:8,9)

Right.  Eternal destruction or eternal conscious torment?
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Feedmysheep on Mon Mar 14, 2011 - 21:36:45
  
 
Quote
Right.  Eternal destruction or eternal conscious torment?
 


Romans 3:16 says "Destruction and misery are in their ways."

  This proves that the two matters can coexist at the same time - "destruction and misery".

  So I would take "eternal destruction" in 1 Thessalonians 1:9 to indicate not temporary misery but never ending misery. In other words destruction and misery coexist forever for the one under divine vengence.

  Destruction there means not the loss of being but the loss of well being.  I think the whole post I wrote should have made it clear that I was not advocating annihilationism.

  
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 06:07:17
Feedmysheep,

re: “The impression is that people want to believe something terrifying or horrific.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: larry2 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 07:42:16

I am not aware of any pronouncements by the Messiah that have to be interpreted as  eternal torment for the unsaved.


Revelation 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 09:09:11
 
larry2,

Revelation 20:10 only says that the devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: larry2 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 10:52:52

larry2,

Revelation 20:10 only says that the devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Do you just want to think bad of God huh? Would a loving God do that to Satan? You don't evidently think that applies to the false prophet and the antichrist. Did you notice that those two are there; not destroyed?
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Feedmysheep on Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 11:32:02
  =====================================
   Feedmysheep,

re: “The impression is that people want to believe something terrifying or horrific.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Feedmysheep on Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 12:12:44
 =============================
   You choose to interpret “eternal destruction
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: saul on Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 13:16:29
Feedmysheep,

I Not Only like to think your interpretation is correct, But cannot find fault with it whatsoever, so I am giving your sheep Manna.


                                                       ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Feedmysheep on Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 14:35:57
Feedmysheep,

I Not Only like to think your interpretation is correct, But cannot find fault with it whatsoever, so I am giving your sheep Manna.


                                                       ::tippinghat::

  Hi.  I do not know about the giving manna procedure. It sounds positive.

  But if anyone else feels positive about my contribution to the discussion I would recommend two books that helped me:

  Eternal Sufffering of the Wicked and Hades  by Robert Govett.

  The Last Assize    by G.H. Lang

   Surf for Schoettle Publishing Co. Inc.

   Because this subject became important to me a few years back I purposely studied these two books to get help. I simply wanted to know what I should believe as the Bible's truth.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: OldDad on Tue Mar 15, 2011 - 16:03:01
A great book that gives an alternate view is "The Fire that Consumes" by Edward Fudge.

http://www.edwardfudge.com/written/fire.html


A fine article by Dr. David Reagan covers some of the same territory:

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/reagan/dr5.html
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Fri May 27, 2011 - 08:32:05
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.


I agree, it makes no sense and no scripture supports this pagan-based belief. You can thank the RCC for incorporating this lie into Christianity, along with many other pagan-based lies we still believe and even celebrate today.
Sadly traditional christians have been brainwashed to believe a lie - well, not just one but many.
Most of their 'religious' observances are not based on the Word of God but human traditions.
But to answer the OP there is no eternal torment but there will be annihilation of unbelievers of Truth.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Feedmysheep on Mon Jun 06, 2011 - 07:44:11
Quote from: Beta


 Sadly traditional christians have been brainwashed to believe a lie - well, not just one but many.
Most of their 'religious' observances are not based on the Word of God but human traditions.
But to answer the OP there is no eternal torment but there will be annihilation of unbelievers of Truth.


 
 

 There are a number of very specific points which you didn't try to address.

  Seekers for the truth need these points answered rather than ignored with a statement of sadness, brainwashing, and religous observances.

  I'd be more impressed by your specific responses to points I raised.

  For example, what would your respond ?

 
Quote from: Feedmysheep

 And any weakening of the phrase forever and ever concerning punishment could logically be leveled at the reign of God forever and ever (See Revelation 11:15).

  If you charge that they cannot be tormented forever and ever in Revelation 20:10 you can also charge that they cannot reign forever and ever in Revelation 22:5.

 Are you willing to be consistent in that regard - that neither tormenting or reigning can be forever and ever ?

  Are you just going to ignore this and lament how I am brainwashed ?
  
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Mon Jun 06, 2011 - 09:29:56
Feedmysheep,

re: “ And any weakening of the phrase forever and ever concerning punishment could logically be leveled at the reign of God forever and ever...
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Feedmysheep on Mon Jun 06, 2011 - 10:24:56
Quote from: rstrats


     Actually the issue shouldn’t be over the words “forever and ever“or “everlasting
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Jun 06, 2011 - 10:58:27
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?



Revelation 14:11
The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 02:38:48
Quote from: Beta


 Sadly traditional christians have been brainwashed to believe a lie - well, not just one but many.
Most of their 'religious' observances are not based on the Word of God but human traditions.
But to answer the OP there is no eternal torment but there will be annihilation of unbelievers of Truth.


 
 

 There are a number of very specific points which you didn't try to address.

  Seekers for the truth need these points answered rather than ignored with a statement of sadness, brainwashing, and religous observances.

  I'd be more impressed by your specific responses to points I raised.

  For example, what would your respond ?

 
Quote from: Feedmysheep

 And any weakening of the phrase forever and ever concerning punishment could logically be leveled at the reign of God forever and ever (See Revelation 11:15).

  If you charge that they cannot be tormented forever and ever in Revelation 20:10 you can also charge that they cannot reign forever and ever in Revelation 22:5.

 Are you willing to be consistent in that regard - that neither tormenting or reigning can be forever and ever ?

  Are you just going to ignore this and lament how I am brainwashed ?
  
'Tormenting' and 'Reigning' is not speaking of the same class of people therefore it affects them differently.
Those in torment are the wicked who rejected Christ and are condemned to die for all eternity
and those chosen to reign with Christ are those who have His Spirit which lives for all eternity.
So there are two eternal states - one is for ever dead and the other for ever alive.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 15:53:42

Those in torment are the wicked who rejected Christ and are condemned to die for all eternity
and those chosen to reign with Christ are those who have His Spirit which lives for all eternity.
So there are two eternal states - one is for ever dead and the other for ever alive.


Two states: forever living, and forever dying.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 16:15:21

Those in torment are the wicked who rejected Christ and are condemned to die for all eternity
and those chosen to reign with Christ are those who have His Spirit which lives for all eternity.
So there are two eternal states - one is for ever dead and the other for ever alive.


Two states: forever living, and forever dying.

No - for ever alive - in Christ shall all be made alive 1Cor.15v22
and for ever dead - and shall be ashes under the feet of the saints Mal.4v3

that my friend is scriptural !
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 17:00:33

Those in torment are the wicked who rejected Christ and are condemned to die for all eternity
and those chosen to reign with Christ are those who have His Spirit which lives for all eternity.
So there are two eternal states - one is for ever dead and the other for ever alive.


Two states: forever living, and forever dying.

No - for ever alive - in Christ shall all be made alive 1Cor.15v22
and for ever dead - and shall be ashes under the feet of the saints Mal.4v3

that my friend is scriptural !

Yes, it's scriptural, but it isn't referring to Hellfire.

People will be alive in hell. Dead people don't weep and gnash teeth.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 17:35:28
Lively Stone,

re:  "Dead people don't weep and gnash teeth."


Please provide the scripture that says how long the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will last. 
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 18:26:17
Lively Stone,

re:  "Dead people don't weep and gnash teeth."


Please provide the scripture that says how long the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will last. 

Do you have biblical authority to teach that the torment of the Lake of Fire damnation is TEMPORARY?

Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark 9:47-48
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where


      ‘ Their worm does not die
       And the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 20:10
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


everlasting fire - Matthew18:8, 25:41
everlasting punishment - Matthew 25:46
everlasting chains - Jude 1:6
everlasting destruction - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
eternal damnation - Mark 3:29
eternal judgment - Hebrews 6:2
eternal fire - Jude 1:7
unquenchable fire - Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched - Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable - Luke 3:17
shame and everlasting contempt - Daniel 12:2
mist of darkness is reserved for ever - 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever - Jude 1:13
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: larry2 on Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 19:04:05


Lively Stone,

re:  "Dead people don't weep and gnash teeth."

Please provide the scripture that says how long the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will last. 




Do you have biblical authority to teach that the torment of the Lake of Fire damnation is TEMPORARY?

Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark 9:47-48
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where

      ‘ Their worm does not die
       And the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 20:10
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

everlasting fire - Matthew18:8, 25:41
everlasting punishment - Matthew 25:46
everlasting chains - Jude 1:6
everlasting destruction - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
eternal damnation - Mark 3:29
eternal judgment - Hebrews 6:2
eternal fire - Jude 1:7
unquenchable fire - Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched - Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable - Luke 3:17
shame and everlasting contempt - Daniel 12:2
mist of darkness is reserved for ever - 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever - Jude 1:13



Good post; a keeper. ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 06:03:00

People will be alive in hell. Dead people don't weep and gnash teeth.

They will do before they die and while dying. Death does not always come in an instant.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 08:46:53
Lively Stone,

re: “Do you have biblical authority to teach that the torment of the Lake of Fire damnation is TEMPORARY?
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Lively Stone on Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 13:57:17

They will do before they die and while dying. Death does not always come in an instant.

You have it all figured out, eh?

I don't think so.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Lively Stone on Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 14:00:13
Lively Stone,

re: “Do you have biblical authority to teach that the torment of the Lake of Fire damnation is TEMPORARY?
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Fri Jun 17, 2011 - 10:27:06
Lively Stone,

re: “Anyone who believes in annihilation is choosing the scenario that least troubles them.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Lively Stone on Fri Jun 17, 2011 - 10:33:24
Lively Stone,

re: “Anyone who believes in annihilation is choosing the scenario that least troubles them.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Sat Jun 18, 2011 - 03:50:08
Lively Stone,

re: “Anyone who believes in annihilation is choosing the scenario that least troubles them.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: gospel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 - 12:38:50
Lively Stone,

re: “Anyone who believes in annihilation is choosing the scenario that least troubles them.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: cs80918 on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 16:01:04
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.


I know this post is old.


It is not my duty to understand everything, but it is my duty to believe what the bible says.  To the best of my understanding the bible speaks on eternal punishment, so therefore I believe that is what God wants and if God wants that then it is the best plan.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: ObeyTheGospel on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 06:20:25
The lost do indeed get eternal punishment, which is eternal death, but not eternal, conscious torment. The wicked shall perish, be consumed, be devoured, die.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Sinead on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 06:24:08
Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 14:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever Revelation 20:10

A dead person isn't able to feel any torment. These people are being tormented and are alive.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 07:56:12
The lost do indeed get eternal punishment, which is eternal death, but not eternal, conscious torment. The wicked shall perish, be consumed, be devoured, die.
I am with you on that my friend.
Even though the wicked are cast into 'everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels' they do burn up and are not tormented for ever since they are not spirit Mat.25v41....for they will be ashes under the feet of the Saints Mal.4v3.

It is sad to think how perfectly lovely Christians have been led to believe this torturing cruelty for all eternity by a loving Creator.

So when are they wailing and gnashing their teeth ? They do it in 'onbelief of the truth while they are alive.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 08:04:26

Sinead,

re: “Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 08:16:12

Sinead,

re: “Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 08:31:23
Beta,

re: “It is the false teaching of 'man's immortal soul' that gives people a wrong understanding.


Absolutely.  Although occurring hundreds of times in the Old and New Testaments, in no case is “soul" ever associated with the words "immortal", “immortality", "eternal", "undying", “incorruptible", and like terms implying life without end. 1 Corinthians 15:53 says that a person is not inherently immortal, but rather has to put on immortality. 
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: cs80918 on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 13:24:49
Lively Stone,

re: “Anyone who believes in annihilation is choosing the scenario that least troubles them.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: cs80918 on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 13:25:48
Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 14:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever Revelation 20:10

A dead person isn't able to feel any torment. These people are being tormented and are alive.

Again we must clarify what this death that the bible speaks of is.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 14:50:36
Lively Stone,

re: “Anyone who believes in annihilation is choosing the scenario that least troubles them.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: FireSword on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 15:17:29
Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 14:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever Revelation 20:10

A dead person isn't able to feel any torment. These people are being tormented and are alive.

The devil feeds on dust, or mans carnality/sins. Without food he would wither and die, for only God has immortality.
The devil has a large belly, so would live for a long time. He may repent in his dying moments and confess that Jesus is Lord.

Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: ajb4 on Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 20:28:21
Hello to All,

What a blessing that so many are searching the scriptures for answers to these questions.  May God give us all discernment concerning these matters.

It would seem that Matt. 10:28 gives a reasonable distinction between body and soul.  As I am new to this forum, and unfamiliar with this argument against the immortality of the soul, would someone who maintains that position please be kind enough to explain the following;

Since the soul departs the body at (physical, mortal) death, which part of the soul is mortal?

When God made man is His image, what image was it, the mortal or immortal?

Please forgive me if these questions seem curt -- they are not meant that way. I'm really just trying to grasp the nature of the differences at play here.  It seems at first glance that the definition of mortality and eternity, as well as, the nature of the body, soul and spirit may be partly at issue.

Thank you for your indulgence.  God Bless
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Sinead on Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:24:45

Sinead,

re: “Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 05:09:23

Sinead,

re: “Dead people can't weep and gnash their teeth which is what is going to happen for all eternity in hell.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Sinead on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 05:22:03
That would be true in our mortal bodies but after the judgement we will all be given resurrected bodies that will never die.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 05:34:53
Biblically one of the definitions of "death" is seperation from God.

In Genesis when God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die.

Gen 2.17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 05:38:38
Hello to All,

What a blessing that so many are searching the scriptures for answers to these questions.  May God give us all discernment concerning these matters.

It would seem that Matt. 10:28 gives a reasonable distinction between body and soul.  As I am new to this forum, and unfamiliar with this argument against the immortality of the soul, would someone who maintains that position please be kind enough to explain the following;

Since the soul departs the body at (physical, mortal) death, which part of the soul is mortal?

When God made man is His image, what image was it, the mortal or immortal?

Please forgive me if these questions seem curt -- they are not meant that way. I'm really just trying to grasp the nature of the differences at play here.  It seems at first glance that the definition of mortality and eternity, as well as, the nature of the body, soul and spirit may be partly at issue.

Thank you for your indulgence.  God Bless

Hello new friend,
Do you have a scripture saying that the soul departs the body at death ?
I'll give you a scripture that says : then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and 'the spirit shall return unto God who gave it Eccl.12v7. You will notice it does not mention 'soul. It is important to stick to scripture or we become confused.
Defining Body ,Soul and spirit IS the issue ...you are right. But there is even moire to it not obviously noticed and that is the difference between the spirits.
But let's take it step by step.
Gen.2v7; God formed man of the dust of the ground (the same dust mentioned in Eccl.12v7 and returns to the ground) and God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (which returns unto God at death Eccl.12v7) and this body of dust while it has life and breath IS a living soul. Without life in it the body is a dead soul.
Are you with me so far ? Please state scriptures for difference of opinion.  ::smile::
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 05:50:10
That would be true in our mortal bodies but after the judgement we will all be given resurrected bodies that will never die.

In the 'Judgement the wicked will NOT be given 'immortal bodies ..
only the ' Righteous .
The wicked (incorrigable unrepentant sinners) will die in their 'mortal bodies and become 'ashes under the feet of the Saints Mal.4v3.
We have a loving merciful God who has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. It is necessary because there is no future for 'flesh and blood' people.
We are destined to become 'spirit  or die. There will be no 'life apart from God.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: ajb4 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 09:08:32
Thank you for your reply, Beta.

I am trying to follow your thoughts and references, so I beg your patience please.

The scripture I originally referenced was Matt 10:28:

"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.{or, Hell.}"

I had hoped you might explain your understanding of this verse.  If a man is killed, and his fleshly body returns to dust, what is this 'soul' that is not killed (by man), where does it go, and why might it be destroyed in Hell?

Then, would you please explain why the distinction is made between spirit and breath in Job 34:14-15:

"If He set His heart on Himself, If he gathered to Himself His spirit and His breath,
all flesh would perish together, and man would turn again to dust. "

And also, Eccl. 3:18-21, if you please:

"I said in my heart, "As for the sons of men, God tests them, so that they may see that they themselves are like animals.
For that which happens to the sons of men happens to animals. Even one thing happens to them. As the one dies, so the other dies. Yes, they have all one breath; and man has no advantage over the animals: for all is vanity.
All go to one place. All are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, whether it goes downward to the earth?"

Please know, I am not looking for argument here, just understanding the truth and wisdom of our Lord.  I consider it a blessing to be 'searching the scripture to see if it is so' -- I hope you do as well. To be dogmatic on this particular subject seems especially difficult to me.

Thank you again, and God bless
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 13:21:20
Biblically one of the definitions of "death" is seperation from God.

In Genesis when God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die.

Gen 2.17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 13:33:43
Quote
Gen.2v17, Adam certainly died within the day he was created.....but of course it was not a 24 hour day. It was a ' biblical day of 1000 years 2Pet.3v8.
That is over-spiritualizing it.  Take the plain meaning - a 24 hour day.

Peter uses that bit of hyperbole to explain that God exists outside our time limitations.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 14:03:28
Thank you for your reply, Beta.

I am trying to follow your thoughts and references, so I beg your patience please.

The scripture I originally referenced was Matt 10:28:

"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.{or, Hell.}"

I had hoped you might explain your understanding of this verse.  If a man is killed, and his fleshly body returns to dust, what is this 'soul' that is not killed (by man), where does it go, and why might it be destroyed in Hell?

Then, would you please explain why the distinction is made between spirit and breath in Job 34:14-15:

"If He set His heart on Himself, If he gathered to Himself His spirit and His breath,
all flesh would perish together, and man would turn again to dust. "

And also, Eccl. 3:18-21, if you please:

"I said in my heart, "As for the sons of men, God tests them, so that they may see that they themselves are like animals.
For that which happens to the sons of men happens to animals. Even one thing happens to them. As the one dies, so the other dies. Yes, they have all one breath; and man has no advantage over the animals: for all is vanity.
All go to one place. All are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, whether it goes downward to the earth?"

Please know, I am not looking for argument here, just understanding the truth and wisdom of our Lord.  I consider it a blessing to be 'searching the scripture to see if it is so' -- I hope you do as well. To be dogmatic on this particular subject seems especially difficult to me.

Thank you again, and God bless

Hello again,
I do not claim to know all truth , nobody can, but I'll give you what I understand.
Mat.10v28 is talking about the body and conscious life I believe is the 'spirit in man Job 32v8; Zech.12v1.But this is NOT the Holy Spirit.Every man (person) has a human spirit giving us conscious awareness and the ability to lead a human life.
In the Bible our conscious awareness is referred to as soul which also points to 'life dependant on the function of the body Gen.2v7. We can not have concious life without the body (breathing air, circulating blood etc)
No one can take that life but God. People may kill us but God can bring us back to life until such a time as the second death in the lake of fire.

Job35v14,15; if God takes back our breath and spirit...if he takes back our life Eccl.12v7; we return to dust (we are dead).

Eccl.3v18-21 it just means that basically man is not much better than an animal.

To lift man ABOVE that state we need another spirit added to our human spirit and that other is ' THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD.'
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 14:13:56
Quote
Gen.2v17, Adam certainly died within the day he was created.....but of course it was not a 24 hour day. It was a ' biblical day of 1000 years 2Pet.3v8.
That is over-spiritualizing it.  Take the plain meaning - a 24 hour day.

Peter uses that bit of hyperbole to explain that God exists outside our time limitations.

Man can take scripture any way he likes my dear friend as long as one is still in the time of man...but GOD does things HIS way and HIS Word will prevail. He is not asking our opinion or our approval.
If you see Adam as living in 24 hour days you make God a liar because scripture says he would die in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit...and he did....according to God.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: ajb4 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 18:51:27
Hello again Beta,

Thank you for your response. Amen to what you said about our lack of ability to know all truth.

I just wanted to ask what you understood about 'another spirit that is added to our human spirit' to 'lift man ABOVE that state' which I assume you mean in our current state of existence, similar to the animals.  Is that spirit which we already have the same one which returns to God? Or is it the Holy Spirit that returns to God? Or is it the our spirit combined with the Holy Spirit that returns to God? And what of the soul?

You see, in Luke 16:19-31, Jesus tells the account of Lazarus and the rich man, where Abraham and the rich man both seem to be able to recognize each other and have conscious ability to speak, hear, feel, thirst -- as in 'live', all without their physical bodies -- the rich man's body is clearly stated as 'buried'.

I haven't been able to resolve this story with your explanation.  I know that some claim this account is a parable, but I would ask them to present any other parable where Jesus used personal names, descriptive details and conversational quotations in this same manner.  It seems that Jesus was directing this account at the pharisees, with the knowledge that they would know of whom he spoke.   However you may view it, the principle issue remains -- conscious, aware, affected being separate from the body (flesh).  In that light, it would seem that Matt. 10:28 has a different meaning than that you have ascribed to it. In fact, by your explanation, when a man is killed, his soul has effectively been killed as well since, for if he is unregenerate, he will only be remade to be destroyed forever at the judgement.

In agreement with you, I would offer that all souls/spirits do return to God. We return for judgement -- the saved for eternal rewards and the unsaved for eternal punishment.  What we lost in the fall was the spiritual union with God (our spirit with the Holy Spirit, as you alluded to earlier).  It is why we were spiritually 'dead' and unable to commune with God as He had made us to do.  But this 'death' was made a 'redeemable' death by the sacrifice of Christ, allowing our spirit to again be joined with THE Spirit of God, as He came to live in us, and therefore, us in Him.  Our bodies house our souls, our souls house our spirit, our spirit was quickened in communion with the Spirit of God, but it died at the fall. We were created in the image of our triune God, and in similitude to the Holy Temple of Jerusalem, with the outer, the inner, and a place for the Holy of Holies.  Our bodies were appointed only once to die, our souls to experience a second death if we do not have His Spirit for eternity.  This second death is the eternal death, like the first, but without the hope of redemption.

1Thess. 5:23  - May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

God made man for His glory.  We shall judge the angels and the world (1Cor. 6:2-3) as His own creation perfected in Christ.  If we judge, are we not raised above those we judge, even if only for that purpose? Will we not then be held at least to the level of punishment deemed for those angels which do willing defy God.  They are those He has already committed to burn in the eternal fire (Rev. 20:10). If we are not of God but belonging to the father of lies, Satan, do we not cast our lot with his fate?(John 8:44). 

What punishment is there in obliteration? What loss shall be felt if there is no existent feeling? Truthfully, we all deserve what God has appointed for Satan, the beast and false prophet already.  Why do we have any claim a lesser punishment for humanity, when it is only by God's grace that we do not receive that which we are ALL due?(Mark 10:18). Rejoice in His mercy, glorify His name and spread the gospel wherever you go -- in other words, do better than I!  ::amen!::

Thank you again for your patience with me.  I would consider it a blessing if you would return the 'sharpening'. God bless you.

 
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 21:12:57
Hello again Beta,

Thank you for your response. Amen to what you said about our lack of ability to know all truth.

I just wanted to ask what you understood about 'another spirit that is added to our human spirit' to 'lift man ABOVE that state' which I assume you mean in our current state of existence, similar to the animals.  Is that spirit which we already have the same one which returns to God? Or is it the Holy Spirit that returns to God? Or is it the our spirit combined with the Holy Spirit that returns to God? And what of the soul?

You see, in Luke 16:19-31, Jesus tells the account of Lazarus and the rich man, where Abraham and the rich man both seem to be able to recognize each other and have conscious ability to speak, hear, feel, thirst -- as in 'live', all without their physical bodies -- the rich man's body is clearly stated as 'buried'.

I haven't been able to resolve this story with your explanation.  I know that some claim this account is a parable, but I would ask them to present any other parable where Jesus used personal names, descriptive details and conversational quotations in this same manner.  It seems that Jesus was directing this account at the pharisees, with the knowledge that they would know of whom he spoke.   However you may view it, the principle issue remains -- conscious, aware, affected being separate from the body (flesh).  In that light, it would seem that Matt. 10:28 has a different meaning than that you have ascribed to it. In fact, by your explanation, when a man is killed, his soul has effectively been killed as well since, for if he is unregenerate, he will only be remade to be destroyed forever at the judgement.

In agreement with you, I would offer that all souls/spirits do return to God. We return for judgement -- the saved for eternal rewards and the unsaved for eternal punishment.  What we lost in the fall was the spiritual union with God (our spirit with the Holy Spirit, as you alluded to earlier).  It is why we were spiritually 'dead' and unable to commune with God as He had made us to do.  But this 'death' was made a 'redeemable' death by the sacrifice of Christ, allowing our spirit to again be joined with THE Spirit of God, as He came to live in us, and therefore, us in Him.  Our bodies house our souls, our souls house our spirit, our spirit was quickened in communion with the Spirit of God, but it died at the fall. We were created in the image of our triune God, and in similitude to the Holy Temple of Jerusalem, with the outer, the inner, and a place for the Holy of Holies.  Our bodies were appointed only once to die, our souls to experience a second death if we do not have His Spirit for eternity.  This second death is the eternal death, like the first, but without the hope of redemption.

1Thess. 5:23  - May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

God made man for His glory.  We shall judge the angels and the world (1Cor. 6:2-3) as His own creation perfected in Christ.  If we judge, are we not raised above those we judge, even if only for that purpose? Will we not then be held at least to the level of punishment deemed for those angels which do willing defy God.  They are those He has already committed to burn in the eternal fire (Rev. 20:10). If we are not of God but belonging to the father of lies, Satan, do we not cast our lot with his fate?(John 8:44). 

What punishment is there in obliteration? What loss shall be felt if there is no existent feeling? Truthfully, we all deserve what God has appointed for Satan, the beast and false prophet already.  Why do we have any claim a lesser punishment for humanity, when it is only by God's grace that we do not receive that which we are ALL due?(Mark 10:18). Rejoice in His mercy, glorify His name and spread the gospel wherever you go -- in other words, do better than I!  ::amen!::

Thank you again for your patience with me.  I would consider it a blessing if you would return the 'sharpening'. God bless you.

Dear friend ajb4. you raise many points most worthy of discussion....but I have a problem - poor vision !!! It is hard for me to deal with long posts as print becomes blurred.
It is our human 'spirit in man' that returns to God when we die taking with it 'breath and life' Job 34v14,15 and only the human form/flesh (dust) is buried. This spirit bears the 'human imprint' of our life on earth and by this method are we resurrected into our own Person for Judgement.We do not at that stage have an immortal body ...only after judgement has been made. That is why the wicked are not made immortal and will burn up in the fire.
i see you have a problem with 'Lazarus and the Rich man being 'conscious in hell' or the grave...for it says both were buried. No one is buried in a firy hell so the Rich man could not really have been in hell yet. No one is until the second death and then they burn upin their mortal bodies. They would not suffer that heat for as long as the Rich man apparently did. I believe that their 'discussion' is 'figurative' and is to help man to mend his ways before he gets to hell.
As I see it there was no spiritual union with God in the fall of man. It was 'on offer' in the tree of Life but never taken up by man.
We can return to these questions again if you like but please short posts so they can be thoroughly covered in more detail. There is too much for me in one go .
Thank you friend !
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: DaveW on Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 07:08:28
Man can take scripture any way he likes my dear friend as long as one is still in the time of man...but GOD does things HIS way and HIS Word will prevail. He is not asking our opinion or our approval.
If you see Adam as living in 24 hour days you make God a liar because scripture says he would die in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit...and he did....according to God.
Of course he died - was cut off from God - within that 24 hour period. That very evening God had to call out "Adam where are you?"  Clearly the link had been broken.  Biblically, that is death.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: ObeyTheGospel on Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 07:57:21
Let's have a short study to see what death really means:

I hate to say this, but Christians who say that Jesus Christ came to earth to save us from eternal torment just don't know their Bibles very well. When Adam and Eve sinned the result was death to all living creatures. Nobody went to heaven and nobody went to hell. Death is the opposite of life. Jesus Christ came to defeat death and to grant us eternal life by dying for our sins. It's a shame that most Christians can't take death literally. They can't accept that the wicked will literally die in the second death, so they are forced to say that death really means eternal life in the lake of fire. But let's see what punishment Jesus had to suffer:

The wages of sin is death. Jesus suffered the penalty for our sins by dying on the cross. If the penalty for sin is eternal, conscious torment, how could Jesus have payed for our sins? Jesus suffered on the cross and then died. The Bible says that he tasted death for everyone:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone (Hebrews 2:9).

Jesus suffered the final result of sin, which is literal death. How can Christians argue that death really means eternal life in hell when Jesus payed for our sins by dying literally? When Adam sinned he eventually died, literally:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22).

There are only two choices--life or death. A person can be spiritually dead if they are not a believer, but the final result of their sin is literal death. This is why the lake of fire is called the second death (Revelation 21:8). Jesus suffered on the cross and died. Those who are cast into the lake of fire will suffer according to their sins and will die. There will be no resurrection from the second death. It is an eternal punishment. No hope of ever seeing life:

Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death (John 8:51).

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him (John 3:36).

Seems very clear to me. The lake of fire is the ultimate death where the wicked will burn up and die without any hope of seeing life ever again. This is the punishment that Jesus suffered. The lake of fire is not eternal life in conscious torment, no matter how much Christians want to believe otherwise. But let's consider another reason why eternal torment makes no sense:

God says, "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:5). God also says, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17). God also says, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).

God will one day have a perfect universe that is fully cleansed of sin. Before Satan fell from heaven sin did not exist. However, if Satan, his demons, and the unsaved are going to burn forever in agonizing torment, how can there ever be complete peace in the universe? If evil is not annihilated then the universe will never be fully cleansed of sin. In order for the universe to be how it was when it was perfect, evil would have to be annihilated once and for all. We are going to enter a perfect universe where there is no more sin or suffering. Everything will be holy. But here is something else to think about:

How do you imagine God will feel if the unsaved burn forever? Is God able to just switch off His emotions? How would God ever find peace in His heart if the unsaved are suffering throughout eternity? The Bible says that God makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Think how much pain God is in right now due to all the suffering that is taking place around the world. Do you think God would ever enjoy paradise in the new heavens if His disobedient children were being tormented throughout eternity? Makes no sense at all.

Stephen
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 08:03:24
Man can take scripture any way he likes my dear friend as long as one is still in the time of man...but GOD does things HIS way and HIS Word will prevail. He is not asking our opinion or our approval.
If you see Adam as living in 24 hour days you make God a liar because scripture says he would die in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit...and he did....according to God.
Of course he died - was cut off from God - within that 24 hour period. That very evening God had to call out "Adam where are you?"  Clearly the link had been broken.  Biblically, that is death.

Could you give me a scripture saying man is cut off from God at death ? we might be able to take it from there.
At the moment we have Eccl.12v7 saying that the spirit of man returns to God when we die. That does not seem to me 'to be cut off.'
So when God called out to Adam asking where he was God had nothing more to do with him ??? That is what 'cut off' seems to imply ??? You can't be 'cut off' but still communicate, can you ?
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Beta on Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 08:16:18

Agree with you on this Stephen....
but very many do not.   ::tippinghat::

Erronious teaching of an 'immortal soul is at the bottom of this lie.
When Christ returns all will be revealed and people will see the error of their ways !
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: ajb4 on Sun Dec 25, 2011 - 00:36:29
Hi Stephen,

Wonderful words of hope -- thank you for your responses.

I wondered if you might explain a couple of verses that I am personally having trouble resolving with your understanding of eternal torment / punishment.

You stated:

'Christians want to believe otherwise. But let's consider another reason why eternal torment makes no sense:

God says, "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:5). God also says, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17). God also says, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).'

I notice the scripture does not say He will be rid of the lake of fire, only that He will create a new heavens and new earth, and that the former things shall not be 'remembered or come to mind'.  Who shall not remember the old things -- the forgiven, or God?  Does God forget the trespasses of the wicked as He does the saved?

Also (in addressing His church) that their pain, death, suffering shall be removed, for those things have passed away (from them). Whose pain and suffering is removed -- that of the forgiven, of the wicked, or of God?  Does not Jesus yet bear the scars of His crucifixion on His glorified body?

Rev. 20:10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev. 20:14 Death and Hades{or, Hell} were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev. 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers,{The word for "sorcerers" here also includes users of potions and drugs.} idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Rev. 21:27 There will in no way enter into it (the holy city) anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev. 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
        14:11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

I know you think that Christians are in error for believing in eternal torment and have difficulty accepting literal death.  The truth is that there are a great number of very competent bible scholars that do not hold your point of view. 

The Matthew Henry commentary on Matt. 25:41-46 states:

"if they (the condemned) must depart, and depart with a curse, may they not go into some place of ease and rest? Will it not be misery enough?  No, there is a punishment of sense as well as loss;  they must depart into fire, into torment as grievous as that of fire is to the body, and much more. this fire is the wrath of the eternal God fastening upon the guilty souls and consciences of sinners that have made themselves fuel for it.  Our God is a consuming fire, and sinners fall immediately into His hands, (Hebrews 10:31, Romans 2:8,9).  If into a fire, may it not be some light or gentle fire?  No, it is a prepared fire; it is a torment ordained of old (Isaiah 30:33) ...In the vessels of wrath He makes His power known; it is a destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power....If into fire, prepared fire, O let it be of short continuance, let them but pass through the fire; No, the fire of God's wrath will be an everlasting fire; a fire that, fastening and preying upon immortal souls, can never go out for want of fuel; and being kindled and burning by the wrath of an immortal God, can never go out,....and the streams of mercy and grace being for ever excluded, there is nothing to extinguish it....If they must be doomed to such a state of endless misery, yet may they have some good company there? No, none but the devil and his angels, their sworn enemies, that helped to bring them to this misery, and will triumph over them in it.  They served the devil while they lived and therefore are justly sentenced to be where he is, as those who served Christ, are taken to be with Him where He is....  The fire is said to be prepared, not primarily for the wicked, as the kingdom is prepared for the righteous; but it was originally prepared for the devil and his angels. If sinners make themselves associates with Satan by indulging their lusts, they may thank themselves if they become sharers in that misery prepared for him (Satan) and his associates.  Calvin notes upon this, that therefore the torment of the damned is said to be prepared for the devil and his angels, to cut off all hope of escaping it; the devil and his angels are already made prisoners in the pit, and can the worms of the earth think to escape?

Walvoord  and Zuck Bible Knowledge Commentary (same verses) states ..

"They will be removed from the earth and cast into 'eternal fire' to undergo eternal punishment.  With all wickedness removed in the Second Advent, the kingdom will begin on earth with only saved individuals in physical bodies constituting the earthly kingdom as King's subjects."

And on Rev. 14:11 says:  "The doctrine of eternal punishment, while unpopular with liberal scholars and difficult to accept, is nevertheless clearly taught in the Bible.  Jesus and the Apostle John say more on this subject than does all the rest of the Bible."

The differing viewpoints perhaps come from a different understanding of who/what is being addressed in certain verses, the spiritual nature of death, and the utter holiness and justice of God. It is my understanding that the eternal God is concerned with the eternal nature of our lives, first and foremost.  Our physical / carnal bodies are but temporary vessels, bound for corruption, yet to be remade incorruptible (for the saved) to participate in the kingdom of God.  God does not need man, nor the love of man, for He was complete without mankind and would remain so if He had allowed all to perish.  That is the wonder of His love, mercy and sacrifice.  But He is Holy, and we are not.  He is a God of wrath as well as a God of love.  We cannot fathom, nor understand, nor judge His 'feelings', as His ways and thoughts are as high above ours as the heavens above the earth. 

When Christ cried out on the cross, "Why have you forsaken me?" was it the physical death, or the separation of His spirit from communion with the Father that He lamented?  Though He did die physically, what fear or distress would He, who had raised the dead Himself and foreknew His physical resurrection, dread? In my understanding, it was that spiritual separation from the Father that led Jesus to lament.  It was THAT death which He tasted for us all, that held eternal significance.  It is THAT death which we as sinners have had in Adam. And, if we are without His grace, we will experience it again at the lake of fire. The second death -- a death that is never finished.  It is we who are concerned with the carnal, temporal and perishable things, having eyes that do not see, and ears that do not hear.

We are made in His image. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  We are soul, body and spirit. That which is eternal is our eternal; that which is mortal and remade, has provided the way for our remaking, and that which speaks to us the things of the kingdom, communes us with His life-giving presence.

Will we then, make God in our image? Do we imagination to judge His judgement, and the deny His righteous punishment of those He called earnestly to save, but who rejected Him for the beast?  If He makes them ashes under His feet, as they burn for eternity, is it not His justice that is served, by rewarding the unrepentant with that which they have chosen?  He will not allow them mercy, for they chose none.  He will not care for them below, as they cared for Satan above Him.  God will remove His redeemed from knowledge, concern and care for the wicked, for it is the eternal smoke of their torment that rises up before Him for ever and ever. He will not forget their sins, for that grace belongs to His children alone.

I admit, it is a most unpleasant consideration, but difficult to dogmatically deny by the scriptures.  It strikes fear into my soul as I study to see if it is so. Let's both pray and make our purpose more sure to share the gospel of truth as often as we are given opportunity, so that we do not see those we have known fall into any other fate than that which we claim in Christ.

My apologies for the length of the post.  God bless you brother.

 
 
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: makahiya on Sat Apr 21, 2012 - 20:01:30
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.



#1.  I don't want to, but I do because I think God said so.


#2.  "scripture", what inspired scripture do you have ?

1. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe only the original manuscripts were inspired. There are no original manuscripts. KJV All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:                                                  

2. You cannot honestly say “the bible
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Sun Apr 22, 2012 - 06:47:09
makahiya,

First you say that you believe in eternal torment because you think God said so, but then you seem to question the authenticity of the various translations and versions.   So where do you think “God said so
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: makahiya on Sun Apr 22, 2012 - 15:15:41
While the entire line of scripture are records, the outstanding record of scripture, and the scripture of final authority is the published text and form of the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bibles.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Delta12 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 20:11:57
http://youtu.be/vv8pLUMDVRc
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 20:46:25
makahiya.

re: ...“the scripture of final authority is the published text and form of the AV 1611 KJV...
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 20:50:05
[url]http://youtu.be/vv8pLUMDVRc[/url]


 ::thumbup::
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Delta12 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 21:11:05
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.


To be very blunt. Your pet demons really don't like the idea that they are going to burn forever in the lake of fire and to be very honest if you wanted to know their names you could start with a few like this. Denial, Liar, Deceit, Delusion, Self-Delusion, Deception, Rebellion, and so on. The word of God teaches hell is forever and whoever does not abide in the doctrine of Christ doesn't have Him.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Kindle on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 06:36:19
 ::frown::

And if people differ with you as to what the Scripture is really saying, what then? They all have demons?
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: rstrats on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 07:31:06
Delta12,

re: “The word of God teaches hell is forever...
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: John 8:32 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 - 09:08:48

The elements shall indeed, be destroyed and the whole Earth as we know it shall perish. But the soul shall not perish.

Yet Jesus says...

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

perish:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Quote
It rather, shall be saved or lost. The soul contained within the resurrected body of the damned shall be punished eternally as per Matt. 25:46 and Rev. 20:10,14,15. The lost find their way into eternal torment alongside the devil and his minions. That's what Scripture teaches. Do I like it? No way... but it is written...

canuck

Mal 4:1  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2  But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The first recorded lie...

Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

But what did God say?

Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: -  X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

And it is reinforced in the New Testament...

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

death:

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Unrepentant sinners, the incorrigibly wicked do not roast forever in an ever burning hell, they are burned completely up with no hope of life ever again.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: TruthScientist on Sat May 25, 2013 - 09:38:02
Catholica,

re:  "God is simply just."


So you want to believe that justice is being served by torturing a person forever because during the person’s short lifetime they didn’t meet the requirements for salvation.  I simply do not understand why you want to believe that.  If the supreme being can annihilate a person, why not do it?  Who benefits from everlasting suffering? What does it accomplish?

When I was a teen and in my 20s I did not consider God in any of my life's works.  I was raised a baptist but did not know Jesus or any of the teachings except to "be good"...  I knew nothing of anihilism but found later that this was what my life was based on.  I did think that the God that I had heard of would 'save' or bring the good people back to life and leave the bad people to rot in the grave. 

I was so inthwralled with the pleasures of the flesh and making myself into something that people would relish that I felt that enjoying myself now in the present and taking a chance on what might happen later was not in my best interest.  Imagine if the world believed that you can chose to do as you please to people because you eventually will be squished out of existance... 
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: willieH on Tue Sep 03, 2013 - 17:06:50
The time for mercy is now, and later the judgment.  At the judgment, justice.

NOW is a good position to name The MERCY of YHVH, which endures FOREVER -- Psalm 136 (whole chapter) -- which means that His MERCY extends in ALL, and in ALL DIRECTIONS ...ALL the time. 


JUDGMENT however, ....according to WORDS of the Savior:  ...JESUS said the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD, is NOW -- John 12:31 -- not "later".


Also, the Scriptures report that when the JUDGMENT of YHVH is in the Earth... the INHABITANTS therein will ...LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS -- Isaiah 26:9


JUDGMENT is not a "threat"!   ....it is indeed a pathway set unto RIGHTEOUSNESS... as it is how YHVH leads us to repentance -- Rom 2:4


PEACE...   ::reading::   ...willieH
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: BWST on Thu Sep 05, 2013 - 11:46:44
Willie, I was looking at Rom 2:4 again and the verses around it.  It looks to me in this passage that its not judgement that leads us to repentance, but His kindness/forebearence/patience - a delay of judgement. 

I agree with you on the other passages you cited, but this one seems to have a different focus, on corrective judgement at the last day.  See verse 5.

Jeff

Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: willieH on Thu Sep 05, 2013 - 16:57:42
Willie, I was looking at Rom 2:4 again and the verses around it.  It looks to me in this passage that its not judgement that leads us to repentance, but His kindness/forebearence/patience - a delay of judgement. 

I agree with you on the other passages you cited, but this one seems to have a different focus, on corrective judgement at the last day.  See verse 5.

Jeff

Hi Jeff...   ::wave::


Thanks for your reply!   ::thumbup::


Well...  Isaiah 26:9 -- clearly notes that JUDGMENT brings about the LEARNING of RIGHTEOUSNESS.   Is it not VIA the conviction (becoming aware of ourselves) of the Holy Spirit (which contains a "righteous" JUDGMENT of sinful works done BY US), which accordingly,  ...brings us (repentantly) to the foot of the cross?  ::shrug::


As far as "the DAY" of the WRATH, ...it is dependent upon the individuals observation of -- "when" the "day of God's Wrath" actually "IS"!


Rom 1:18 -- Notes that the WRATH of God ...IS... come against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of man... "IS", is a word which describes "NOW"!   And, ...NOW is well, ...NOW!


YHVH God is a "NOW" kind of God... He even describes Himself to be the "I AM" -- Ex 3:14 -- and when it comes down to it, there truly "IS" no other time except - "NOW".   


When one steps back and analyzes what "TIME" actually is, ...All that the "past" amounts to is "NOW" which has occurred... and all that the "future" amounts to is "NOW" which is yet to occur.   So the only TIME that truly EVER exists is NOW.


Psalm 90:9 -- notes of the WRATH of GOD, that we spend the entirety of our LIVES amidst the WRATH:


Psalm 90:9 -- For ALL OUR DAYS are passed ALWAYS IN thy WRATH; ...we spend our YEARS as a TALE that is told.


JESUS clearly noted that the "JUDGMENT" of THIS WORLD... is ...NOW! (not later) -- John 12:31


And the statements made by the Apostle PAUL note that ALL works ...ARE... placed on the ONLY foundation that exists - which IS laid, and ...IS,  JESUS CHRIST -- 1 Cor 3:11 -- in the placing of these works (as each occur NOW), ...upon that foundation... are they JUDGED, as JESUS noted.


Hope that at least helps you understand the state of my observation of the JUDGMENT and the WRATH.  Both of which are ...NOW (as I see it).


PEACE...   ::reading::  ...willieH
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: chosenone on Thu Sep 05, 2013 - 17:07:16
Its nice to think that hell or whatever you like to call it, doesn't exist, but it does. The Bible speaks about it many many times.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: willieH on Thu Sep 05, 2013 - 17:18:09
Its nice to think that hell or whatever you like to call it, doesn't exist, but it does. The Bible speaks about it many many times.

The "BIBLE" is not just ONE ENTITY, ...it is a varying entity, with MANY translations available in the English language.  Dependent upon the version, there are MANY differences between those translations.


The King James version (KJV) "of the Bible" is filled with "HELL" and was FORCEFULLY and THREATENINGLY directed by the TYRANT known as King James (a little study on who King James was will reveal much),  ...but the term HELL is NOT mentioned even ONCE, in the MAJORITY of other ENGLISH translations of the very same Hebrew and Greek WORDS.


PEACE...  ::reading:: ...willieH
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: BWST on Fri Sep 06, 2013 - 12:56:29
Thanks Willie, that helps.  The time reference is what I missed.  It's always helpful to stand back and get the right perspective on time.

Jeff
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Nov 10, 2016 - 11:36:47
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

I believe in conscious eternal torment or eternal punishment because God says so.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

These scriptures speaks of eternal punishment, that is, being cast into everlasting fire, for the unsaved and the evil ones. Now, if you refuse to believe what these scriptures say,  because in your judgement, if this is true, you judge God to be a heartless monster, may I ask you the following:

1. Can anyone judge God?
2. Are you more just, loving, merciful than God?
3. If that is the punishment for sin that God has decreed, would you question your creator, why not rather wipe the person mercifully out of existence? Are you wiser than God?
4. If that is the justice of God, are you saying that such is unjust?

(No offense meant. Such questions were asked to drive my point.)
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: SkyWriting on Wed Jul 10, 2019 - 04:12:15
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

"Time" does not exist after death.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: SkyWriting on Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 06:53:56
I believe in conscious eternal torment or eternal punishment because God says so.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

These scriptures speaks of eternal punishment, that is, being cast into everlasting fire, for the unsaved and the evil ones. Now, if you refuse to believe what these scriptures say,  because in your judgement, if this is true, you judge God to be a heartless monster, may I ask you the following:

1. Can anyone judge God?
2. Are you more just, loving, merciful than God?
3. If that is the punishment for sin that God has decreed, would you question your creator, why not rather wipe the person mercifully out of existence? Are you wiser than God?
4. If that is the justice of God, are you saying that such is unjust?

(No offense meant. Such questions were asked to drive my point.)


Those phrases only mean that time does not exist, begin, or end.
They do not mean that a dead person become an immortal soul who is tortured with never ending time.
Time does not exist after death.  No point in dragging human experience into hell along with you.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 07:02:02
Those phrases only mean that time does not exist, begin, or end.
They do not mean that a dead person become an immortal soul who is tortured with never ending time.
Time does not exist after death.  No point in dragging human experience into hell along with you.
So then, what do you think is the end result of those who do not believe in God and the gospel?
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: SkyWriting on Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 07:09:28
So then, what do you think is the end result of those who do not believe in God and the gospel?

It's infinitely bad in comparison to being everything you were created to be.

Death is like if you take a goldfish out of it's bowl.  Being in the bowl is best for the Spirit.   
Being out of the bowl is like Hell. Its not where you were meant to be.

That's taking my usual fish and water illustration upside down, but it works.
Normally I say that "People are born into sin, just like a fish is born into water. We are all of us, wet."
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 07:28:57
It's infinitely bad in comparison to being everything you were created to be.

Death is like if you take a goldfish out of it's bowl.  Being in the bowl is best for the Spirit.   
Being out of the bowl is like Hell. Its not where you were meant to be.

That's taking my usual fish and water illustration upside down, but it works.
Normally I say that "People are born into sin, just like a fish is born into water. We are all of us, wet."

But of course as you have pointed out a couple of times here, there is no time after death.  But in the exact same way, there is no "place", i.e., space, after death.  Both time and space are creations within this physical universe. So your analogy of the fish bowl simply doesn't work; it is a "place" and neither heaven nor hell are "places".

Besides that, you didn't really answer the question.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: SkyWriting on Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 07:35:22
But of course as you have pointed out a couple of times here, there is no time after death.  But in the exact same way, there is no "place", i.e., space, after death.  Both time and space are creations within this physical universe. So your analogy of the fish bowl simply doesn't work; it is a "place" and neither heaven nor hell are "places".

Besides that, you didn't really answer the question.

The analogy works fine.  The thing about analogies is they are not the identical thing.  Duh.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 07:49:03
The analogy works fine.  The thing about analogies is they are not the identical thing.  Duh.
Fish bowl.   DUH.   rofl   rofl   rofl
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: SkyWriting on Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 21:03:18
So then, what do you think is the end result of those who do not believe in God and the gospel?

Those who do not trust in God, do not commune with God in the next life.
This is a miserable torment and it is called hell.
Title: Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Jul 21, 2019 - 00:33:24
Luke 16:24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.