Author Topic: Conscious Eternal Torment?  (Read 13360 times)

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Offline ajb4

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #70 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 18:51:27 »
Hello again Beta,

Thank you for your response. Amen to what you said about our lack of ability to know all truth.

I just wanted to ask what you understood about 'another spirit that is added to our human spirit' to 'lift man ABOVE that state' which I assume you mean in our current state of existence, similar to the animals.  Is that spirit which we already have the same one which returns to God? Or is it the Holy Spirit that returns to God? Or is it the our spirit combined with the Holy Spirit that returns to God? And what of the soul?

You see, in Luke 16:19-31, Jesus tells the account of Lazarus and the rich man, where Abraham and the rich man both seem to be able to recognize each other and have conscious ability to speak, hear, feel, thirst -- as in 'live', all without their physical bodies -- the rich man's body is clearly stated as 'buried'.

I haven't been able to resolve this story with your explanation.  I know that some claim this account is a parable, but I would ask them to present any other parable where Jesus used personal names, descriptive details and conversational quotations in this same manner.  It seems that Jesus was directing this account at the pharisees, with the knowledge that they would know of whom he spoke.   However you may view it, the principle issue remains -- conscious, aware, affected being separate from the body (flesh).  In that light, it would seem that Matt. 10:28 has a different meaning than that you have ascribed to it. In fact, by your explanation, when a man is killed, his soul has effectively been killed as well since, for if he is unregenerate, he will only be remade to be destroyed forever at the judgement.

In agreement with you, I would offer that all souls/spirits do return to God. We return for judgement -- the saved for eternal rewards and the unsaved for eternal punishment.  What we lost in the fall was the spiritual union with God (our spirit with the Holy Spirit, as you alluded to earlier).  It is why we were spiritually 'dead' and unable to commune with God as He had made us to do.  But this 'death' was made a 'redeemable' death by the sacrifice of Christ, allowing our spirit to again be joined with THE Spirit of God, as He came to live in us, and therefore, us in Him.  Our bodies house our souls, our souls house our spirit, our spirit was quickened in communion with the Spirit of God, but it died at the fall. We were created in the image of our triune God, and in similitude to the Holy Temple of Jerusalem, with the outer, the inner, and a place for the Holy of Holies.  Our bodies were appointed only once to die, our souls to experience a second death if we do not have His Spirit for eternity.  This second death is the eternal death, like the first, but without the hope of redemption.

1Thess. 5:23  - May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

God made man for His glory.  We shall judge the angels and the world (1Cor. 6:2-3) as His own creation perfected in Christ.  If we judge, are we not raised above those we judge, even if only for that purpose? Will we not then be held at least to the level of punishment deemed for those angels which do willing defy God.  They are those He has already committed to burn in the eternal fire (Rev. 20:10). If we are not of God but belonging to the father of lies, Satan, do we not cast our lot with his fate?(John 8:44). 

What punishment is there in obliteration? What loss shall be felt if there is no existent feeling? Truthfully, we all deserve what God has appointed for Satan, the beast and false prophet already.  Why do we have any claim a lesser punishment for humanity, when it is only by God's grace that we do not receive that which we are ALL due?(Mark 10:18). Rejoice in His mercy, glorify His name and spread the gospel wherever you go -- in other words, do better than I!  ::amen!::

Thank you again for your patience with me.  I would consider it a blessing if you would return the 'sharpening'. God bless you.

 

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #70 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 18:51:27 »

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #71 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 21:12:57 »
Hello again Beta,

Thank you for your response. Amen to what you said about our lack of ability to know all truth.

I just wanted to ask what you understood about 'another spirit that is added to our human spirit' to 'lift man ABOVE that state' which I assume you mean in our current state of existence, similar to the animals.  Is that spirit which we already have the same one which returns to God? Or is it the Holy Spirit that returns to God? Or is it the our spirit combined with the Holy Spirit that returns to God? And what of the soul?

You see, in Luke 16:19-31, Jesus tells the account of Lazarus and the rich man, where Abraham and the rich man both seem to be able to recognize each other and have conscious ability to speak, hear, feel, thirst -- as in 'live', all without their physical bodies -- the rich man's body is clearly stated as 'buried'.

I haven't been able to resolve this story with your explanation.  I know that some claim this account is a parable, but I would ask them to present any other parable where Jesus used personal names, descriptive details and conversational quotations in this same manner.  It seems that Jesus was directing this account at the pharisees, with the knowledge that they would know of whom he spoke.   However you may view it, the principle issue remains -- conscious, aware, affected being separate from the body (flesh).  In that light, it would seem that Matt. 10:28 has a different meaning than that you have ascribed to it. In fact, by your explanation, when a man is killed, his soul has effectively been killed as well since, for if he is unregenerate, he will only be remade to be destroyed forever at the judgement.

In agreement with you, I would offer that all souls/spirits do return to God. We return for judgement -- the saved for eternal rewards and the unsaved for eternal punishment.  What we lost in the fall was the spiritual union with God (our spirit with the Holy Spirit, as you alluded to earlier).  It is why we were spiritually 'dead' and unable to commune with God as He had made us to do.  But this 'death' was made a 'redeemable' death by the sacrifice of Christ, allowing our spirit to again be joined with THE Spirit of God, as He came to live in us, and therefore, us in Him.  Our bodies house our souls, our souls house our spirit, our spirit was quickened in communion with the Spirit of God, but it died at the fall. We were created in the image of our triune God, and in similitude to the Holy Temple of Jerusalem, with the outer, the inner, and a place for the Holy of Holies.  Our bodies were appointed only once to die, our souls to experience a second death if we do not have His Spirit for eternity.  This second death is the eternal death, like the first, but without the hope of redemption.

1Thess. 5:23  - May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

God made man for His glory.  We shall judge the angels and the world (1Cor. 6:2-3) as His own creation perfected in Christ.  If we judge, are we not raised above those we judge, even if only for that purpose? Will we not then be held at least to the level of punishment deemed for those angels which do willing defy God.  They are those He has already committed to burn in the eternal fire (Rev. 20:10). If we are not of God but belonging to the father of lies, Satan, do we not cast our lot with his fate?(John 8:44). 

What punishment is there in obliteration? What loss shall be felt if there is no existent feeling? Truthfully, we all deserve what God has appointed for Satan, the beast and false prophet already.  Why do we have any claim a lesser punishment for humanity, when it is only by God's grace that we do not receive that which we are ALL due?(Mark 10:18). Rejoice in His mercy, glorify His name and spread the gospel wherever you go -- in other words, do better than I!  ::amen!::

Thank you again for your patience with me.  I would consider it a blessing if you would return the 'sharpening'. God bless you.

Dear friend ajb4. you raise many points most worthy of discussion....but I have a problem - poor vision !!! It is hard for me to deal with long posts as print becomes blurred.
It is our human 'spirit in man' that returns to God when we die taking with it 'breath and life' Job 34v14,15 and only the human form/flesh (dust) is buried. This spirit bears the 'human imprint' of our life on earth and by this method are we resurrected into our own Person for Judgement.We do not at that stage have an immortal body ...only after judgement has been made. That is why the wicked are not made immortal and will burn up in the fire.
i see you have a problem with 'Lazarus and the Rich man being 'conscious in hell' or the grave...for it says both were buried. No one is buried in a firy hell so the Rich man could not really have been in hell yet. No one is until the second death and then they burn upin their mortal bodies. They would not suffer that heat for as long as the Rich man apparently did. I believe that their 'discussion' is 'figurative' and is to help man to mend his ways before he gets to hell.
As I see it there was no spiritual union with God in the fall of man. It was 'on offer' in the tree of Life but never taken up by man.
We can return to these questions again if you like but please short posts so they can be thoroughly covered in more detail. There is too much for me in one go .
Thank you friend !

Offline DaveW

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #72 on: Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 07:08:28 »
Man can take scripture any way he likes my dear friend as long as one is still in the time of man...but GOD does things HIS way and HIS Word will prevail. He is not asking our opinion or our approval.
If you see Adam as living in 24 hour days you make God a liar because scripture says he would die in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit...and he did....according to God.
Of course he died - was cut off from God - within that 24 hour period. That very evening God had to call out "Adam where are you?"  Clearly the link had been broken.  Biblically, that is death.

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #73 on: Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 07:57:21 »
Let's have a short study to see what death really means:

I hate to say this, but Christians who say that Jesus Christ came to earth to save us from eternal torment just don't know their Bibles very well. When Adam and Eve sinned the result was death to all living creatures. Nobody went to heaven and nobody went to hell. Death is the opposite of life. Jesus Christ came to defeat death and to grant us eternal life by dying for our sins. It's a shame that most Christians can't take death literally. They can't accept that the wicked will literally die in the second death, so they are forced to say that death really means eternal life in the lake of fire. But let's see what punishment Jesus had to suffer:

The wages of sin is death. Jesus suffered the penalty for our sins by dying on the cross. If the penalty for sin is eternal, conscious torment, how could Jesus have payed for our sins? Jesus suffered on the cross and then died. The Bible says that he tasted death for everyone:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone (Hebrews 2:9).

Jesus suffered the final result of sin, which is literal death. How can Christians argue that death really means eternal life in hell when Jesus payed for our sins by dying literally? When Adam sinned he eventually died, literally:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22).

There are only two choices--life or death. A person can be spiritually dead if they are not a believer, but the final result of their sin is literal death. This is why the lake of fire is called the second death (Revelation 21:8). Jesus suffered on the cross and died. Those who are cast into the lake of fire will suffer according to their sins and will die. There will be no resurrection from the second death. It is an eternal punishment. No hope of ever seeing life:

Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death (John 8:51).

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him (John 3:36).

Seems very clear to me. The lake of fire is the ultimate death where the wicked will burn up and die without any hope of seeing life ever again. This is the punishment that Jesus suffered. The lake of fire is not eternal life in conscious torment, no matter how much Christians want to believe otherwise. But let's consider another reason why eternal torment makes no sense:

God says, "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:5). God also says, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17). God also says, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).

God will one day have a perfect universe that is fully cleansed of sin. Before Satan fell from heaven sin did not exist. However, if Satan, his demons, and the unsaved are going to burn forever in agonizing torment, how can there ever be complete peace in the universe? If evil is not annihilated then the universe will never be fully cleansed of sin. In order for the universe to be how it was when it was perfect, evil would have to be annihilated once and for all. We are going to enter a perfect universe where there is no more sin or suffering. Everything will be holy. But here is something else to think about:

How do you imagine God will feel if the unsaved burn forever? Is God able to just switch off His emotions? How would God ever find peace in His heart if the unsaved are suffering throughout eternity? The Bible says that God makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Think how much pain God is in right now due to all the suffering that is taking place around the world. Do you think God would ever enjoy paradise in the new heavens if His disobedient children were being tormented throughout eternity? Makes no sense at all.

Stephen

Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #74 on: Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 08:03:24 »
Man can take scripture any way he likes my dear friend as long as one is still in the time of man...but GOD does things HIS way and HIS Word will prevail. He is not asking our opinion or our approval.
If you see Adam as living in 24 hour days you make God a liar because scripture says he would die in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit...and he did....according to God.
Of course he died - was cut off from God - within that 24 hour period. That very evening God had to call out "Adam where are you?"  Clearly the link had been broken.  Biblically, that is death.

Could you give me a scripture saying man is cut off from God at death ? we might be able to take it from there.
At the moment we have Eccl.12v7 saying that the spirit of man returns to God when we die. That does not seem to me 'to be cut off.'
So when God called out to Adam asking where he was God had nothing more to do with him ??? That is what 'cut off' seems to imply ??? You can't be 'cut off' but still communicate, can you ?

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #74 on: Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 08:03:24 »



Offline Beta

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #75 on: Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 08:16:18 »

Agree with you on this Stephen....
but very many do not.   ::tippinghat::

Erronious teaching of an 'immortal soul is at the bottom of this lie.
When Christ returns all will be revealed and people will see the error of their ways !

Offline ajb4

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #76 on: Sun Dec 25, 2011 - 00:36:29 »
Hi Stephen,

Wonderful words of hope -- thank you for your responses.

I wondered if you might explain a couple of verses that I am personally having trouble resolving with your understanding of eternal torment / punishment.

You stated:

'Christians want to believe otherwise. But let's consider another reason why eternal torment makes no sense:

God says, "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:5). God also says, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17). God also says, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).'

I notice the scripture does not say He will be rid of the lake of fire, only that He will create a new heavens and new earth, and that the former things shall not be 'remembered or come to mind'.  Who shall not remember the old things -- the forgiven, or God?  Does God forget the trespasses of the wicked as He does the saved?

Also (in addressing His church) that their pain, death, suffering shall be removed, for those things have passed away (from them). Whose pain and suffering is removed -- that of the forgiven, of the wicked, or of God?  Does not Jesus yet bear the scars of His crucifixion on His glorified body?

Rev. 20:10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev. 20:14 Death and Hades{or, Hell} were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev. 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers,{The word for "sorcerers" here also includes users of potions and drugs.} idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Rev. 21:27 There will in no way enter into it (the holy city) anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev. 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
        14:11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

I know you think that Christians are in error for believing in eternal torment and have difficulty accepting literal death.  The truth is that there are a great number of very competent bible scholars that do not hold your point of view. 

The Matthew Henry commentary on Matt. 25:41-46 states:

"if they (the condemned) must depart, and depart with a curse, may they not go into some place of ease and rest? Will it not be misery enough?  No, there is a punishment of sense as well as loss;  they must depart into fire, into torment as grievous as that of fire is to the body, and much more. this fire is the wrath of the eternal God fastening upon the guilty souls and consciences of sinners that have made themselves fuel for it.  Our God is a consuming fire, and sinners fall immediately into His hands, (Hebrews 10:31, Romans 2:8,9).  If into a fire, may it not be some light or gentle fire?  No, it is a prepared fire; it is a torment ordained of old (Isaiah 30:33) ...In the vessels of wrath He makes His power known; it is a destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power....If into fire, prepared fire, O let it be of short continuance, let them but pass through the fire; No, the fire of God's wrath will be an everlasting fire; a fire that, fastening and preying upon immortal souls, can never go out for want of fuel; and being kindled and burning by the wrath of an immortal God, can never go out,....and the streams of mercy and grace being for ever excluded, there is nothing to extinguish it....If they must be doomed to such a state of endless misery, yet may they have some good company there? No, none but the devil and his angels, their sworn enemies, that helped to bring them to this misery, and will triumph over them in it.  They served the devil while they lived and therefore are justly sentenced to be where he is, as those who served Christ, are taken to be with Him where He is....  The fire is said to be prepared, not primarily for the wicked, as the kingdom is prepared for the righteous; but it was originally prepared for the devil and his angels. If sinners make themselves associates with Satan by indulging their lusts, they may thank themselves if they become sharers in that misery prepared for him (Satan) and his associates.  Calvin notes upon this, that therefore the torment of the damned is said to be prepared for the devil and his angels, to cut off all hope of escaping it; the devil and his angels are already made prisoners in the pit, and can the worms of the earth think to escape?

Walvoord  and Zuck Bible Knowledge Commentary (same verses) states ..

"They will be removed from the earth and cast into 'eternal fire' to undergo eternal punishment.  With all wickedness removed in the Second Advent, the kingdom will begin on earth with only saved individuals in physical bodies constituting the earthly kingdom as King's subjects."

And on Rev. 14:11 says:  "The doctrine of eternal punishment, while unpopular with liberal scholars and difficult to accept, is nevertheless clearly taught in the Bible.  Jesus and the Apostle John say more on this subject than does all the rest of the Bible."

The differing viewpoints perhaps come from a different understanding of who/what is being addressed in certain verses, the spiritual nature of death, and the utter holiness and justice of God. It is my understanding that the eternal God is concerned with the eternal nature of our lives, first and foremost.  Our physical / carnal bodies are but temporary vessels, bound for corruption, yet to be remade incorruptible (for the saved) to participate in the kingdom of God.  God does not need man, nor the love of man, for He was complete without mankind and would remain so if He had allowed all to perish.  That is the wonder of His love, mercy and sacrifice.  But He is Holy, and we are not.  He is a God of wrath as well as a God of love.  We cannot fathom, nor understand, nor judge His 'feelings', as His ways and thoughts are as high above ours as the heavens above the earth. 

When Christ cried out on the cross, "Why have you forsaken me?" was it the physical death, or the separation of His spirit from communion with the Father that He lamented?  Though He did die physically, what fear or distress would He, who had raised the dead Himself and foreknew His physical resurrection, dread? In my understanding, it was that spiritual separation from the Father that led Jesus to lament.  It was THAT death which He tasted for us all, that held eternal significance.  It is THAT death which we as sinners have had in Adam. And, if we are without His grace, we will experience it again at the lake of fire. The second death -- a death that is never finished.  It is we who are concerned with the carnal, temporal and perishable things, having eyes that do not see, and ears that do not hear.

We are made in His image. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  We are soul, body and spirit. That which is eternal is our eternal; that which is mortal and remade, has provided the way for our remaking, and that which speaks to us the things of the kingdom, communes us with His life-giving presence.

Will we then, make God in our image? Do we imagination to judge His judgement, and the deny His righteous punishment of those He called earnestly to save, but who rejected Him for the beast?  If He makes them ashes under His feet, as they burn for eternity, is it not His justice that is served, by rewarding the unrepentant with that which they have chosen?  He will not allow them mercy, for they chose none.  He will not care for them below, as they cared for Satan above Him.  God will remove His redeemed from knowledge, concern and care for the wicked, for it is the eternal smoke of their torment that rises up before Him for ever and ever. He will not forget their sins, for that grace belongs to His children alone.

I admit, it is a most unpleasant consideration, but difficult to dogmatically deny by the scriptures.  It strikes fear into my soul as I study to see if it is so. Let's both pray and make our purpose more sure to share the gospel of truth as often as we are given opportunity, so that we do not see those we have known fall into any other fate than that which we claim in Christ.

My apologies for the length of the post.  God bless you brother.

 
 

Offline makahiya

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #77 on: Sat Apr 21, 2012 - 20:01:30 »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.



#1.  I don't want to, but I do because I think God said so.


#2.  "scripture", what inspired scripture do you have ?

1. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe only the original manuscripts were inspired. There are no original manuscripts. KJV All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:                                                  

2. You cannot honestly say “the bible
« Last Edit: Sat Apr 21, 2012 - 20:20:15 by makahiya »

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #78 on: Sun Apr 22, 2012 - 06:47:09 »
makahiya,

First you say that you believe in eternal torment because you think God said so, but then you seem to question the authenticity of the various translations and versions.   So where do you think “God said so

Offline makahiya

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #79 on: Sun Apr 22, 2012 - 15:15:41 »
While the entire line of scripture are records, the outstanding record of scripture, and the scripture of final authority is the published text and form of the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bibles.

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #80 on: Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 20:11:57 »
Small | Large

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #81 on: Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 20:46:25 »
makahiya.

re: ...“the scripture of final authority is the published text and form of the AV 1611 KJV...

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Delta12

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #83 on: Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 21:11:05 »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.


To be very blunt. Your pet demons really don't like the idea that they are going to burn forever in the lake of fire and to be very honest if you wanted to know their names you could start with a few like this. Denial, Liar, Deceit, Delusion, Self-Delusion, Deception, Rebellion, and so on. The word of God teaches hell is forever and whoever does not abide in the doctrine of Christ doesn't have Him.

Offline Kindle

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #84 on: Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 06:36:19 »
 ::frown::

And if people differ with you as to what the Scripture is really saying, what then? They all have demons?

Offline rstrats

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #85 on: Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 07:31:06 »
Delta12,

re: “The word of God teaches hell is forever...

Offline John 8:32

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #86 on: Tue Mar 05, 2013 - 09:08:48 »

The elements shall indeed, be destroyed and the whole Earth as we know it shall perish. But the soul shall not perish.

Yet Jesus says...

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

perish:

G622
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apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Quote
It rather, shall be saved or lost. The soul contained within the resurrected body of the damned shall be punished eternally as per Matt. 25:46 and Rev. 20:10,14,15. The lost find their way into eternal torment alongside the devil and his minions. That's what Scripture teaches. Do I like it? No way... but it is written...

canuck

Mal 4:1  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2  But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The first recorded lie...

Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

But what did God say?

Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: -  X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

And it is reinforced in the New Testament...

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

death:

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Unrepentant sinners, the incorrigibly wicked do not roast forever in an ever burning hell, they are burned completely up with no hope of life ever again.

Offline TruthScientist

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #87 on: Sat May 25, 2013 - 09:38:02 »
Catholica,

re:  "God is simply just."


So you want to believe that justice is being served by torturing a person forever because during the person’s short lifetime they didn’t meet the requirements for salvation.  I simply do not understand why you want to believe that.  If the supreme being can annihilate a person, why not do it?  Who benefits from everlasting suffering? What does it accomplish?

When I was a teen and in my 20s I did not consider God in any of my life's works.  I was raised a baptist but did not know Jesus or any of the teachings except to "be good"...  I knew nothing of anihilism but found later that this was what my life was based on.  I did think that the God that I had heard of would 'save' or bring the good people back to life and leave the bad people to rot in the grave. 

I was so inthwralled with the pleasures of the flesh and making myself into something that people would relish that I felt that enjoying myself now in the present and taking a chance on what might happen later was not in my best interest.  Imagine if the world believed that you can chose to do as you please to people because you eventually will be squished out of existance... 

Offline willieH

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #88 on: Tue Sep 03, 2013 - 17:06:50 »
The time for mercy is now, and later the judgment.  At the judgment, justice.

NOW is a good position to name The MERCY of YHVH, which endures FOREVER -- Psalm 136 (whole chapter) -- which means that His MERCY extends in ALL, and in ALL DIRECTIONS ...ALL the time. 


JUDGMENT however, ....according to WORDS of the Savior:  ...JESUS said the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD, is NOW -- John 12:31 -- not "later".


Also, the Scriptures report that when the JUDGMENT of YHVH is in the Earth... the INHABITANTS therein will ...LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS -- Isaiah 26:9


JUDGMENT is not a "threat"!   ....it is indeed a pathway set unto RIGHTEOUSNESS... as it is how YHVH leads us to repentance -- Rom 2:4


PEACE...   ::reading::   ...willieH

Offline BWST

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #89 on: Thu Sep 05, 2013 - 11:46:44 »
Willie, I was looking at Rom 2:4 again and the verses around it.  It looks to me in this passage that its not judgement that leads us to repentance, but His kindness/forebearence/patience - a delay of judgement. 

I agree with you on the other passages you cited, but this one seems to have a different focus, on corrective judgement at the last day.  See verse 5.

Jeff


Offline willieH

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #90 on: Thu Sep 05, 2013 - 16:57:42 »
Willie, I was looking at Rom 2:4 again and the verses around it.  It looks to me in this passage that its not judgement that leads us to repentance, but His kindness/forebearence/patience - a delay of judgement. 

I agree with you on the other passages you cited, but this one seems to have a different focus, on corrective judgement at the last day.  See verse 5.

Jeff

Hi Jeff...   ::wave::


Thanks for your reply!   ::thumbup::


Well...  Isaiah 26:9 -- clearly notes that JUDGMENT brings about the LEARNING of RIGHTEOUSNESS.   Is it not VIA the conviction (becoming aware of ourselves) of the Holy Spirit (which contains a "righteous" JUDGMENT of sinful works done BY US), which accordingly,  ...brings us (repentantly) to the foot of the cross?  ::shrug::


As far as "the DAY" of the WRATH, ...it is dependent upon the individuals observation of -- "when" the "day of God's Wrath" actually "IS"!


Rom 1:18 -- Notes that the WRATH of God ...IS... come against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of man... "IS", is a word which describes "NOW"!   And, ...NOW is well, ...NOW!


YHVH God is a "NOW" kind of God... He even describes Himself to be the "I AM" -- Ex 3:14 -- and when it comes down to it, there truly "IS" no other time except - "NOW".   


When one steps back and analyzes what "TIME" actually is, ...All that the "past" amounts to is "NOW" which has occurred... and all that the "future" amounts to is "NOW" which is yet to occur.   So the only TIME that truly EVER exists is NOW.


Psalm 90:9 -- notes of the WRATH of GOD, that we spend the entirety of our LIVES amidst the WRATH:


Psalm 90:9 -- For ALL OUR DAYS are passed ALWAYS IN thy WRATH; ...we spend our YEARS as a TALE that is told.


JESUS clearly noted that the "JUDGMENT" of THIS WORLD... is ...NOW! (not later) -- John 12:31


And the statements made by the Apostle PAUL note that ALL works ...ARE... placed on the ONLY foundation that exists - which IS laid, and ...IS,  JESUS CHRIST -- 1 Cor 3:11 -- in the placing of these works (as each occur NOW), ...upon that foundation... are they JUDGED, as JESUS noted.


Hope that at least helps you understand the state of my observation of the JUDGMENT and the WRATH.  Both of which are ...NOW (as I see it).


PEACE...   ::reading::  ...willieH

Offline chosenone

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #91 on: Thu Sep 05, 2013 - 17:07:16 »
Its nice to think that hell or whatever you like to call it, doesn't exist, but it does. The Bible speaks about it many many times.

Offline willieH

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #92 on: Thu Sep 05, 2013 - 17:18:09 »
Its nice to think that hell or whatever you like to call it, doesn't exist, but it does. The Bible speaks about it many many times.

The "BIBLE" is not just ONE ENTITY, ...it is a varying entity, with MANY translations available in the English language.  Dependent upon the version, there are MANY differences between those translations.


The King James version (KJV) "of the Bible" is filled with "HELL" and was FORCEFULLY and THREATENINGLY directed by the TYRANT known as King James (a little study on who King James was will reveal much),  ...but the term HELL is NOT mentioned even ONCE, in the MAJORITY of other ENGLISH translations of the very same Hebrew and Greek WORDS.


PEACE...  ::reading:: ...willieH

Offline BWST

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #93 on: Fri Sep 06, 2013 - 12:56:29 »
Thanks Willie, that helps.  The time reference is what I missed.  It's always helpful to stand back and get the right perspective on time.

Jeff

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #94 on: Thu Nov 10, 2016 - 11:36:47 »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

I believe in conscious eternal torment or eternal punishment because God says so.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

These scriptures speaks of eternal punishment, that is, being cast into everlasting fire, for the unsaved and the evil ones. Now, if you refuse to believe what these scriptures say,  because in your judgement, if this is true, you judge God to be a heartless monster, may I ask you the following:

1. Can anyone judge God?
2. Are you more just, loving, merciful than God?
3. If that is the punishment for sin that God has decreed, would you question your creator, why not rather wipe the person mercifully out of existence? Are you wiser than God?
4. If that is the justice of God, are you saying that such is unjust?

(No offense meant. Such questions were asked to drive my point.)

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #95 on: Wed Jul 10, 2019 - 04:12:15 »
For those of you who believe in eternal torment for the unsaved, why do you want to do that? I just don’t understand why people  want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster.  I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to.  Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements?  I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

"Time" does not exist after death.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #96 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 06:53:56 »
I believe in conscious eternal torment or eternal punishment because God says so.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

These scriptures speaks of eternal punishment, that is, being cast into everlasting fire, for the unsaved and the evil ones. Now, if you refuse to believe what these scriptures say,  because in your judgement, if this is true, you judge God to be a heartless monster, may I ask you the following:

1. Can anyone judge God?
2. Are you more just, loving, merciful than God?
3. If that is the punishment for sin that God has decreed, would you question your creator, why not rather wipe the person mercifully out of existence? Are you wiser than God?
4. If that is the justice of God, are you saying that such is unjust?

(No offense meant. Such questions were asked to drive my point.)


Those phrases only mean that time does not exist, begin, or end.
They do not mean that a dead person become an immortal soul who is tortured with never ending time.
Time does not exist after death.  No point in dragging human experience into hell along with you.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #97 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 07:02:02 »
Those phrases only mean that time does not exist, begin, or end.
They do not mean that a dead person become an immortal soul who is tortured with never ending time.
Time does not exist after death.  No point in dragging human experience into hell along with you.
So then, what do you think is the end result of those who do not believe in God and the gospel?

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #98 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 07:09:28 »
So then, what do you think is the end result of those who do not believe in God and the gospel?

It's infinitely bad in comparison to being everything you were created to be.

Death is like if you take a goldfish out of it's bowl.  Being in the bowl is best for the Spirit.   
Being out of the bowl is like Hell. Its not where you were meant to be.

That's taking my usual fish and water illustration upside down, but it works.
Normally I say that "People are born into sin, just like a fish is born into water. We are all of us, wet."

Offline 4WD

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #99 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 07:28:57 »
It's infinitely bad in comparison to being everything you were created to be.

Death is like if you take a goldfish out of it's bowl.  Being in the bowl is best for the Spirit.   
Being out of the bowl is like Hell. Its not where you were meant to be.

That's taking my usual fish and water illustration upside down, but it works.
Normally I say that "People are born into sin, just like a fish is born into water. We are all of us, wet."

But of course as you have pointed out a couple of times here, there is no time after death.  But in the exact same way, there is no "place", i.e., space, after death.  Both time and space are creations within this physical universe. So your analogy of the fish bowl simply doesn't work; it is a "place" and neither heaven nor hell are "places".

Besides that, you didn't really answer the question.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #100 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 07:35:22 »
But of course as you have pointed out a couple of times here, there is no time after death.  But in the exact same way, there is no "place", i.e., space, after death.  Both time and space are creations within this physical universe. So your analogy of the fish bowl simply doesn't work; it is a "place" and neither heaven nor hell are "places".

Besides that, you didn't really answer the question.

The analogy works fine.  The thing about analogies is they are not the identical thing.  Duh.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #101 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 07:49:03 »
The analogy works fine.  The thing about analogies is they are not the identical thing.  Duh.
Fish bowl.   DUH.   rofl   rofl   rofl

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #102 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 21:03:18 »
So then, what do you think is the end result of those who do not believe in God and the gospel?

Those who do not trust in God, do not commune with God in the next life.
This is a miserable torment and it is called hell.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Conscious Eternal Torment?
« Reply #103 on: Sun Jul 21, 2019 - 00:33:24 »
Luke 16:24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 21, 2019 - 00:41:12 by Michael2012 »

 

     
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