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Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2011, 04:44:07 AM »
ObeyTheGospel,  "If the story Jesus told about the rich man and the poor man is not true, and just a parable, and you claim it is a parable, what moral or spiritual truth is it teaching. What exactly are you saying it symbolizes? and what is the lession it teaches if a parable?"

Also eternal means, perpetual, everlasting. Scriptures teach, that God is eternal.

Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God."  

The Holy Spirit is eternal, Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit,

Scriptures teach, Matt.19:29, Whoever gives up all they have and follows Jesus, He said, they "Shall inherit everlasting life."

For those who do as the rich man did to Lazaras, Jesus said, Matt.25:41, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Compare to,

Matt.25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal." Compare with,

Dan.12:2, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

In you believe in everlasting life, then you have to believe in everlasting punishment. Its in the same sentence, and the same word, in Matthew, and Daniel. So you have a Old and New Testament supporting the idea behind eternal, or everlasting life, verses, everlasting punishment.

Eternal: 166. Greek is, aionios. Perpetual, everlasting, eternal.
   a-1. Spoken chiefly of time future, of God, Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." 1 Tim.
6:16. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God."  
   a-2. Of the happiness of the righteous, Matt.19:29, 25:46, "Everlasting punishment." Mark 10:30, "Eternal life." John 3:15-16-36. Rom.2:7. 2 Cor.4:17. In some passages this, "May have life eternal, is equivalent to, John 3:15, coll. with ver.3-5. Matt.19:16. Acts 13:46.
   a-3. Of the punishment of the wicked, Matt.18:8, 25:41-46. Mark 3:29, "Eternal damnation." 2 Thes.1:9. Heb.6:2. Jude 7. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting," Dan.12:2.
   a-4. Genr. 2 Cor.4:18, 5:1. Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit, "Heb.13:20. 1 John 1:2. Rev.
14:6. Philem.15, as an adverb. "Forever," always. Sept. for Heb. Gen.9:16. 17:7.

Phil LaSpino











The parable of the rich man and Lazarus has a deep meaning. I have listened to different interpretations on what this parable means, but to take it as a literal event wouldn't make much sense for a variety of reasons: When were humans given immortal souls? Where did Adam and Eve go after they died? There is no mention of immortal souls anywhere in the Bible. You can't just take a single parable and interpret it as a literal real event.

When it comes to "everlasting" or "eternal" in the Bible you have to read it in its context. Sometimes the word "eternal" is to be taken literally, but many other times the word "eternal" or "everlasting" did not literally mean forever. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but they were turned to ashes. It just means that the results of the fire are eternal. Also when the Bible says "unquenchable fire," it only meant that nobody could put out the fire. The fire did not literally burn forever. The wicked will have eternal punishment i.e eternal death, not eternal life in hell.



Obeythegospel,

You have a like mind (in me) here in his thread  ::tippinghat::

The only way to truly expose the fraudulent teachings of demonic supernatural being's is to expound the passage to it’s
fullest, until there is no more room for such error.

Eventually, by doing so, you will leave the errorist's to the their mystic nonsensical ideas and you can watch them run very quickly from truth though we would not have it so. ::frown::

Here is an example of two "Christians" running from a Job study on Satan from which they still are yet to return. ::pondering::

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/non-traditional-theology/job-chastening-and-perfecting-a-son-of-god/75/?PHPSESSID=445c278993e3bf7e9ea20b7f3e375a72

I boast in these victories as Jesus Christ who is the captain of our truth can illuminate their folly and replace it with a solid foundation of Bible truth.

Let’s begin by considering a breakup of the Luke 15 & 16  

15:1-2 Parables arose because of Jesus’ associations with publicans and sinners

15:28 Churlish eldest son refuses to feast with repentant brother

16:1 Unjust steward wastes his Lord’s goods

16:4-7 Unfaithfully writes down debts owed to his Lord

16:14 Parable applied to Pharisees as “lovers of money
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 04:57:04 AM by Insight »
And now, Christians, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2011, 04:44:07 AM »

cs80918

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2011, 10:59:39 AM »
Our goal as Christians should not be to defend the gospel of a denomination, but to seek the truth of God.


1 Corinthians 3:4
For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task.


I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.

So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.




OP-  I guess your main issue is you don't believe we go from mortality to immortality.




1 Corinthians 15:54

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Daniel 12:2

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

Ecclesiastes 12:7

and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it


Matthew 25:46

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into leternal life.

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2011, 10:59:39 AM »

inthenow

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2011, 03:33:15 PM »
Eze_18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When one is saved through faith in Christ, that one is one with Him. Which one of you would have someone punished for eternity?

AN OPINION.

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2011, 04:06:35 PM »
Eze_18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When one is saved through faith in Christ, that one is one with Him. Which one of you would have someone punished for eternity?

AN OPINION.

Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".

If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.

Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.
And now, Christians, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2011, 04:06:35 PM »

inthenow

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2011, 04:54:39 PM »

Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".

If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Matthew 10:28 has soul as seperate from body.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Man can kill the body but not the soul, God can destroy both.

 

Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.
[/quote]
Soul = life, mind, and yes our emotions and nature is part of that I believe.

soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2011, 04:54:39 PM »



Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2011, 05:04:16 PM »

Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".

If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Matthew 10:28 has soul as seperate from body.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Man can kill the body but not the soul, God can destroy both.

 

Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.

Soul = life, mind, and yes our emotions and nature is part of that I believe.

soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


You state unashamedly Platonic doctrine with origins in Egyptian mythology.

Quote
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Out of your own mouth you teach immortal Spirit beings are able to transgress Yahweh in Heaven.

Of course this means your reward, be it eternal, is tainted by flesh lusts that lead to sin!

Good luck teaching that error.

Insight

And now, Christians, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2011, 05:09:12 PM »
Lets see if you can play dodge?

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The above quote is the Devine decree upon all sin...you must say yes!

If this be true your satan will die of his own accord!

Lets see how fast you can run from truth...

Shall we?

And now, Christians, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2011, 05:20:19 PM »
You can always see platonic error a mile away, as it often only takes one powerful verse to bring the whole teaching undone.

Rom 6:23 just did this to your fallen angel theology and satanic worship doctrine.

You can thank me later ::tippinghat::

Insight
And now, Christians, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2011, 05:24:02 PM »
What no response?

Are you trying to reconcile fallen angel with Rom 6:23?

I am sitting here eager to hear your explanation.

Please don’t let me down...

Waiting...
And now, Christians, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2011, 05:53:29 PM »
Shush…all is quiet

Error is laid to rest but what of the state of the dead?

Maybe you would heed the Proverb in a twofold lesson… The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead. Prov  21:16

Many will stay there held by its strong grip.

Insight
And now, Christians, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Offline YesImAFreshman

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2011, 07:15:56 PM »
Hello Insight,

I just happened across this string, and am trying to grasp your viewpoint concerning body, soul, spirit, eternal life, judgement, etc. topics.  Would you be willing to summarize your biblical understanding of these things? 

If this is an inappropriate request, please accept my apologies-- I am new to this type of forum.

Thanks, Al
Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God
Eph 6:13-17 (NKJV)
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Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2011, 07:53:42 PM »
Hello Insight,

I just happened across this string, and am trying to grasp your viewpoint concerning body, soul, spirit, eternal life, judgement, etc. topics.  Would you be willing to summarize your biblical understanding of these things?  

If this is an inappropriate request, please accept my apologies-- I am new to this type of forum.

Thanks, Al

Hi Al,

It appears you may be rescued this thread as the others have moved on left in confusion as to their fallen angel theology.  These are they who are taught error from a child and never question their beliefs they are held under their deception that God has failed to control His Heavenly Realm.  

Put simply they do not understand angels…at all!

Do you actually believe that God allowed sin to enter Heaven? I am continually amazed at how many believers have been persuaded by this teaching? But most of all it saddens me that many do not understand sin.


That’s right, if you understood sin this post would not have been written. The origin of Sin will answer one question, but you will have many more at the end of this study.


I will stress that sin comes from inside us. It is our fault we sin - we inherited a nature which is prone to sin Romans 5:12-14. It is because we have a free will to choose between good and evil that we sin. Do you honestly believe the ministering spirits (angels) which bear His name and do His work have free will to choose evil? They dwell in light unapproachable, they are glorified beings who are pure and holy as He is holy.

No, long has the human race laid blame at the feet of a supernatural make believe devil, or in their case some presumed fallen angel. The very thought contradicts all scripture concerning God’s will being done in Heaven.

How could Jesus pray these words if an Angel fell?

Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6

So they say its God’s will for angels to sin in Heaven and that Jesus would have a fallable God whose will is not obeyed in heaven to come to earth?

How so – Sin in heaven to be brought to earth?

Christians in the main are thick and that is being nice! They don’t hear the Scriptures they wrest them with human imaginations rather than asking the right questions and receiving the right answers.  

Why would you aim for immortality if you could still sin? I hear you thinking "thats not right" Why would God reward those that diligently seek Him with eternal life, when we are no different to our current state?

What this means is the Scriptures you thought you understood have now become something else! There must be more!

Do you hope of a prospect of becoming an eternal sinner?????...yes, I know it just doesn’t sound right nor does it fit.

You need to remember "the wages of sin is death" (Rom.6:23)

When you labour at work...your wages is money.

When you sin your wages is death.

Sin leads to death.

If it is not our fault that we sin, but that of the devil, then a just God ought to punish the devil rather than us.

But the fact that we are judged for our own sins shows that we are responsible for our sins. The concept of the devil being a specific person outside of us, rather than the principle of sin within us is an attempt to move the responsibility for our sins away from ourselves. This is yet another example of men refusing to come to terms with what the Bible teaches about man's nature.

Our nature is fundamentally sinful…as it leads to death and the law has the dominion in our members!  

"There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him...For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders...pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within and defile the man" (Mk.7:15-23 Jesus Speaking).

The idea that there is something sinful outside of us which enters us and causes us to sin is incompatible with the plain teaching of Jesus here.  From within, out of the heart of man, come all these evil things. This is why, at the time of the flood, God considered that

"the imagination of man's heart (mind i.e carnal, animal) is evil from his youth" (Gen.8:21).

In other words people were constantly thinking of ways to be evil.

James 1:14 tells us how we are tempted: "Every man (it is the same process for each human being) is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust ("of his own evil desire", N.I.V.) and enticed". We are tempted by our own lusts, our own evil desires; not by anything outside of us. "From whence come wars and fighting’s among you?", James asks; "Come they not hence, even of your lusts?" (James 4:1).


Each of us has specific, personal temptations. They therefore have to be generated by our own evil desires, because they are personal to us. It has been truly said that we are our own worst enemy.


Paul laments: "In me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing...for the good that I would I do not...if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" (Rom.7:18-21). Now he does not blame his sinning on an external being called the devil. He located his own evil nature as the real source of sin: "It is not I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law (within me), that, when I would do good, evil is present with (i.e. within) me". So he says that the opposition to being spiritual comes from something that he calls "sin dwelling in me".


David, another undoubtedly a righteous man commented upon the constant sinfulness of his very nature: "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:5).


The Bible is very explicit about wicked nature of man. If this is understood there is no need to invent an imaginary person outside our human natures who is responsible for our sins.


Jer.17:9 says that the heart of man is so desperately wicked and deceitful that we cannot actually appreciate the gross extent of its sinfulness.  

Finally, show me where God informs us of a fallen angel.

Chapter, Book and verse.

1.   What caused the angel to fall
2.   Why wasn’t the sentence of death passed? Rom 6:23
3.   If so explain how God is unjust for not passing the same law that binds us to death.
4.   Show an understanding from Gen 1-3 of the fallen angel; immortality of the soul
 
That should be enough to keep you all busy running off you’re many books of knowledge.

Insight




And now, Christians, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Offline YesImAFreshman

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2011, 08:38:13 PM »
Hello again Insight,

Thank you for your response, Al

Matthew, Chapter 4

4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
4:2 When he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was hungry afterward.
4:3 The tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"{Deuteronomy 8:3}
4:5 Then the devil took him into the holy city. He set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
4:6 and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, 'He will put his angels in charge of you.' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, so that you don't dash your foot against a stone.'"{Psalm 91:11-12}
4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test the Lord, your God.'"{Deuteronomy 6:16}
4:8 Again, the devil took him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory.
4:9 He said to him, "I will give you all of these things, if you will fall down and worship me."
4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Get behind me,{TR and NU read "Go away" instead of "Get behind me"} Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.'"{Deuteronomy 6:13}
4:11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and served him.

Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God
Eph 6:13-17 (NKJV)
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Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2011, 08:41:10 PM »
Hello again Insight,

Thank you for your response, Al

Matthew, Chapter 4

4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
4:2 When he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was hungry afterward.
4:3 The tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"{Deuteronomy 8:3}
4:5 Then the devil took him into the holy city. He set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
4:6 and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, 'He will put his angels in charge of you.' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, so that you don't dash your foot against a stone.'"{Psalm 91:11-12}
4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test the Lord, your God.'"{Deuteronomy 6:16}
4:8 Again, the devil took him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory.
4:9 He said to him, "I will give you all of these things, if you will fall down and worship me."
4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Get behind me,{TR and NU read "Go away" instead of "Get behind me"} Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.'"{Deuteronomy 6:13}
4:11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and served him.



So what are the possibilities of the adversary (satan)?

1. A make believe supernatural being the like you would see in a Hollywood movie?

2. The High Priest of the Sanhedrin

3. An Angel

4. His own mind

Honestly which of these can you tell me you have explored before coming to option 1?

Be honest!
And now, Christians, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Offline YesImAFreshman

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2011, 09:10:10 PM »
Revelation 12:7-17

12:7 There was war in the sky. Michael and his angels made war on the dragon. The dragon and his angels made war.
12:8 They didn't prevail, neither was a place found for him any more in heaven.
12:9 The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
12:10 I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now is come the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb's blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life, even to death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil has gone down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a short time."
12:13 When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
12:14 Two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, so that she might be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 The serpent spewed water out of his mouth after the woman like a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.
12:16 The earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon spewed out of his mouth.
12:17 The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.
 


Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God
Eph 6:13-17 (NKJV)
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