Author Topic: Hell is not eternal torment  (Read 9723 times)

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Offline YesImAFreshman

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #35 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:45:13 »
Luke 10:8-11

10:8 Into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat the things that are set before you.
10:9 Heal the sick who are therein, and tell them, 'The Kingdom of God has come near to you.'
10:10 But into whatever city you enter, and they don't receive you, go out into its streets and say,
10:11 'Even the dust from your city that clings to us, we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the Kingdom of God has come near to you.'

I don't presume that God would need my wisdom to explain His.  Whatever it is that you are fighting against, my friend, may the Lord Jesus grant you His understanding and peace.

God bless you, Al
 



Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #36 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:52:51 »
Luke 10:8-11

10:8 Into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat the things that are set before you.
10:9 Heal the sick who are therein, and tell them, 'The Kingdom of God has come near to you.'
10:10 But into whatever city you enter, and they don't receive you, go out into its streets and say,
10:11 'Even the dust from your city that clings to us, we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the Kingdom of God has come near to you.'

I don't presume that God would need my wisdom to explain His.  Whatever it is that you are fighting against, my friend, may the Lord Jesus grant you His understanding and peace.

God bless you, Al
 

Al, Al, Al....

We have approx 18 people reading these posts and thus far we have you believing in dragons, and making God the creator and of demonic being and you persist with quoting passages of scripture that you cannot explain?

I could ask an infidel at work to copy and paste the same passages and you both would be none the wiser.

Go away and find what this meaneth...

These were more noble than YesImAFreshman, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

You have shown us your inablility to:

1. Recieve the Word
2. A readiness of mind
3. Searching the Scriptures

On all three counts your prayers and well wishes are meaningless until you return with this spirit...otherwise you a just another Christian who is without form and void.

I hope the hard reality will impress on you your need to respond with substance and not teachings of devils and demons.

Insight



 

inthenow

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #37 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:18:32 »

Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".

If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Matthew 10:28 has soul as seperate from body.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Man can kill the body but not the soul, God can destroy both.

 

Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.

Soul = life, mind, and yes our emotions and nature is part of that I believe.

soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


You state unashamedly Platonic doctrine with origins in Egyptian mythology.

Quote
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Out of your own mouth you teach immortal Spirit beings are able to transgress Yahweh in Heaven.

Of course this means your reward, be it eternal, is tainted by flesh lusts that lead to sin!

Good luck teaching that error.

Insight


There are many scriptures showing satan transgresses God in heaven.
Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #38 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:19:39 »

Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".

If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Matthew 10:28 has soul as seperate from body.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Man can kill the body but not the soul, God can destroy both.

 

Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.

Soul = life, mind, and yes our emotions and nature is part of that I believe.

soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


You state unashamedly Platonic doctrine with origins in Egyptian mythology.

Quote
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Out of your own mouth you teach immortal Spirit beings are able to transgress Yahweh in Heaven.

Of course this means your reward, be it eternal, is tainted by flesh lusts that lead to sin!

Good luck teaching that error.

Insight


There are many scriptures showing satan transgresses God in heaven.
Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


We are waiting for you to explain exactly what Rev 12:10 means?

Can you enter the Word or simply speak at it?


Offline Sinead

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #39 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:21:31 »
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #39 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:21:31 »



Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #40 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:23:48 »
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

Well lets say I was about to kill someone who hurt one of my family members and you stood in my way and rebuke my action.

You would be a Satan to me!

You can have a good Satan but you cannot have a good devil

Why is this so?

And provide a Bible passage to prove...



 

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #41 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:27:36 »
The meaning of satan (adversary) - the following are referred to as "satan" or "adversary":

God is a Satan in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1.
An obedient divine angel is a Satan in Num. 22:22.
Hadad the Edomite is a Satan in 1 Kings 11:14.
Peter is a Satan in Matt. 16:23.

Now you will not study these passages to see if this is so...do you know why?

Because your heart is set of error.

It’s the way you like it - its comfortable

Insight

Offline Sinead

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #42 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:28:54 »
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

Well lets say I was about to kill someone who hurt one of my family members and you stood in my way and rebuke my action.

You would be a Satan to me!

You can have a good Satan but you cannot have a good devil

Why is this so?

And provide a Bible passage to prove...



 

If this scenario happened why would I be a 'satan' to you? What do you mean? Wouldn't I actually be the 'good guy'?

Do you believe in a supernatural satan? That the cherub Lucifer who fell is now satan?

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #43 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:30:46 »
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

Well lets say I was about to kill someone who hurt one of my family members and you stood in my way and rebuke my action.

You would be a Satan to me!

You can have a good Satan but you cannot have a good devil

Why is this so?

And provide a Bible passage to prove...



 

If this scenario happened why would I be a 'satan' to you? What do you mean? Wouldn't I actually be the 'good guy'?

Do you believe in a supernatural satan? That the cherub Lucifer who fell is now satan?

It is evident you do not understand the word Satan or its application in the Bible.

READ: The meaning of satan (adversary) - the following are referred to as "satan" or "adversary":

God is a Satan in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1.
An obedient divine angel is a Satan in Num. 22:22.
Hadad the Edomite is a Satan in 1 Kings 11:14.
Peter is a Satan in Matt. 16:23.

Now you will not study these passages to see if this is so...do you know why?

Now how can you be a good Satan?

Offline Sinead

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #44 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:33:41 »
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

Well lets say I was about to kill someone who hurt one of my family members and you stood in my way and rebuke my action.

You would be a Satan to me!

You can have a good Satan but you cannot have a good devil

Why is this so?

And provide a Bible passage to prove...



 

If this scenario happened why would I be a 'satan' to you? What do you mean? Wouldn't I actually be the 'good guy'?

Do you believe in a supernatural satan? That the cherub Lucifer who fell is now satan?

It is evident you do not understand the word Satan or its application in the Bible.

READ: The meaning of satan (adversary) - the following are referred to as "satan" or "adversary":

God is a Satan in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1.
An obedient divine angel is a Satan in Num. 22:22.
Hadad the Edomite is a Satan in 1 Kings 11:14.
Peter is a Satan in Matt. 16:23.

Now you will not study these passages to see if this is so...do you know why?

Now how can you be a good Satan?

Well all names have a meaning. The name George means Farmer but many Georges are not farmers.
The word satan isn't a thing but rather just a name.

Also do you believe that that lucifer is now satan?

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #45 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:35:37 »
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

Well lets say I was about to kill someone who hurt one of my family members and you stood in my way and rebuke my action.

You would be a Satan to me!

You can have a good Satan but you cannot have a good devil

Why is this so?

And provide a Bible passage to prove...



 

If this scenario happened why would I be a 'satan' to you? What do you mean? Wouldn't I actually be the 'good guy'?

Do you believe in a supernatural satan? That the cherub Lucifer who fell is now satan?

It is evident you do not understand the word Satan or its application in the Bible.

READ: The meaning of satan (adversary) - the following are referred to as "satan" or "adversary":

God is a Satan in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1.
An obedient divine angel is a Satan in Num. 22:22.
Hadad the Edomite is a Satan in 1 Kings 11:14.
Peter is a Satan in Matt. 16:23.

Now you will not study these passages to see if this is so...do you know why?

Now how can you be a good Satan?

Well all names have a meaning. The name George means Farmer but many Georges are not farmers.
The word satan isn't a thing but rather just a name.

Also do you believe that that lucifer is now satan?

You still fail to understand...

Was Peter a good satan (or adversary) to Christ or bad? Matt. 16:23.

Answer_____________
 


Offline Sinead

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #46 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:36:09 »
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

Well lets say I was about to kill someone who hurt one of my family members and you stood in my way and rebuke my action.

You would be a Satan to me!

You can have a good Satan but you cannot have a good devil

Why is this so?

And provide a Bible passage to prove...



 

If this scenario happened why would I be a 'satan' to you? What do you mean? Wouldn't I actually be the 'good guy'?

Do you believe in a supernatural satan? That the cherub Lucifer who fell is now satan?

It is evident you do not understand the word Satan or its application in the Bible.

READ: The meaning of satan (adversary) - the following are referred to as "satan" or "adversary":

God is a Satan in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1.
An obedient divine angel is a Satan in Num. 22:22.
Hadad the Edomite is a Satan in 1 Kings 11:14.
Peter is a Satan in Matt. 16:23.

Now you will not study these passages to see if this is so...do you know why?

Now how can you be a good Satan?

Well all names have a meaning. The name George means Farmer but many Georges are not farmers.
The word satan isn't a thing but rather just a name.

Also do you believe that that lucifer is now satan?

You still fail to understand...

Was Peter a good satan (or adversary) to Christ or bad? Matt. 16:23.

Answer_____________
 



And you still fail to answer direct questions.

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #47 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:38:45 »
Was the obedient divine angel in Num. 22:22 a good Satan of bad Satan?

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary (Satan) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

Answer__________


Offline Sinead

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #48 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:39:16 »
Was the obedient divine angel in Num. 22:22 a good Satan of bad Satan?

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary (Satan) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

Answer__________



I can see it is impossible to get anywhere with you. Good day.

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #49 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:43:38 »
Was the obedient divine angel in Num. 22:22 a good Satan of bad Satan?

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary (Satan) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

Answer__________



I can see it is impossible to get anywhere with you. Good day.

I proved to those reading this you could not enter the Word of God...why is this so?

If you answered the Word with a NO Peter was not a good adversary becuase he was speaking the things of man and not of God.

Whereas the Lord standing in the way of Balaam was a good Satan (or adversary)

The problem you have created in this line of discussion is God or Yahweh is spoken here as being a Satan however you cannot reconcile this teaching because it falls outside of your preconceived understanding of the supernatural nonsense you cling onto.

Today has been an interesting day as you are the third person to walk into the night.

 ::frown::

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #50 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:46:04 »
I understand the frustration of the Master who taught daily to those who have no ears to hear.

The question Sinead wanted answered is whether I believe in a supernatural demonic being who rules in a place of eternal fire.

The answer is clearly no!

Offline chosenone

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #51 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:51:16 »
Not what the Bible says though. Whether you yourself believe it or not doesnt matter, its what God says that matters.
Not nice to think that so many will be in hell for ever, but I have never seen anywhere in the Bible that says otherwise. 

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #52 on: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:54:58 »
Not what the Bible says though. Whether you yourself believe it or not doesnt matter, its what God says that matters.
Not nice to think that so many will be in hell for ever, but I have never seen anywhere in the Bible that says otherwise. 

I will reword you post for the sake of truth and then comment.

Quote

Not what the Bible says though. Whether you yourself believe it or not doesnt matter, its what God says that matters.


True

Quote

Not nice to think that so many will be in hell (Grave) for ever, but I have never seen anywhere in the Bible that says otherwise. 


Yes hell as you endeavour to imply the fantastical imaginations of fiery images has always been the quietness of the grave.

Your imagination is working overtime if you see anything else.

Insight




inthenow

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #53 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 00:08:00 »
Insight:
We are waiting for you to explain exactly what Rev 12:10 means?

Can you enter the Word or simply speak at it?

The meaning of the part of Revelation 12:10 that is in discussion is that satan has always lied to God about the saints, and that is transgression to God who dosn't like lies, and satan is the father of lies, yes it's transgression toward God indeed.

ObeyTheGospel

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #54 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 02:12:44 »
This is suppose to be a topic on whether hell is eternal. Please don't go off topic.

Offline Beta

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #55 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 03:16:49 »
This is suppose to be a topic on whether hell is eternal. Please don't go off topic.

The problem arises when man applies 'only one meaning to hell' when in fact the bible speaks of 'different meanings'. Which 'hell' are we talking about ?

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #56 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 04:17:03 »
Insight:
We are waiting for you to explain exactly what Rev 12:10 means?

Can you enter the Word or simply speak at it?

The meaning of the part of Revelation 12:10 that is in discussion is that satan has always lied to God about the saints, and that is transgression to God who dosn't like lies, and satan is the father of lies, yes it's transgression toward God indeed.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Revelation 12:10)

Rather than providing you with an understanding of Rev 12 which clearly would be lost on you why dont you prove to us that this satan is a fallen angel, supernatural and maybe you could show us the context of the passage?

Thanks

Insight

Offline Sinead

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #57 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 05:28:15 »
Insight:
We are waiting for you to explain exactly what Rev 12:10 means?

Can you enter the Word or simply speak at it?

The meaning of the part of Revelation 12:10 that is in discussion is that satan has always lied to God about the saints, and that is transgression to God who dosn't like lies, and satan is the father of lies, yes it's transgression toward God indeed.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Revelation 12:10)

Rather than providing you with an understanding of Rev 12 which clearly would be lost on you why dont you prove to us that this satan is a fallen angel, supernatural and maybe you could show us the context of the passage?

Thanks

Insight

What I'm curious about is why you ask these questions when you are already convinced about your beliefs?
Are you trying to sway us?
It hasn't worked yet and it won't work in the future either.

Offline Insight

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #58 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 05:42:05 »
Insight:
We are waiting for you to explain exactly what Rev 12:10 means?

Can you enter the Word or simply speak at it?

The meaning of the part of Revelation 12:10 that is in discussion is that satan has always lied to God about the saints, and that is transgression to God who dosn't like lies, and satan is the father of lies, yes it's transgression toward God indeed.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Revelation 12:10)

Rather than providing you with an understanding of Rev 12 which clearly would be lost on you why dont you prove to us that this satan is a fallen angel, supernatural and maybe you could show us the context of the passage?

Thanks

Insight

What I'm curious about is why you ask these questions when you are already convinced about your beliefs?
Are you trying to sway us?
It hasn't worked yet and it won't work in the future either.

If you were teaching someone about the supernatural demonic being how would you from Rev 12:10?

Now I need not sway you in any direction only the Word, when understood, has this power. 

Let me explain what is happening here.

Over the years you have been convinced in this Satan and told to believe this or that, and so when one (like me) comes along asking you to actually explain the verse you find yourself in a state of difficulty because all of sudden it’s not as clear as you first thought.

I see this all the time with highly prophetical passages such as this chapter in Rev 12.

I will leave it here as I find no delight in making people uncomfortable only to show them the potential for a deeper meaning / understanding.

Insight
 

Offline JohnDB

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #59 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 06:20:39 »
Ok guys. The subject is about the eternity of hell. Let's stay on that topic & leave other topics for another new thread. (Even if the subjects are related).

Offline Beta

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #60 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 08:10:56 »
I think we can safely say that ' firy.hell is eternal
since it puts an end to all life Mal.4v3.

cs80918

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #61 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 13:28:27 »
This questions will help understand this subect better.

What is the first death?  What takes place during the first death?

What is the second death?  What takes place during the first death?

What are all the defintions of death in the bible?

Offline Beta

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #62 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 14:39:35 »
This questions will help understand this subect better.

What is the first death?  What takes place during the first death?

What is the second death?  What takes place during the first death?

What are all the defintions of death in the bible?

Are you helping to understand this suject by asking more questions ? ????

inthenow

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #63 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 18:48:05 »
Suffering forever verses forever gone.

A hole in the ground or a tomb or anywhere where a persons dead body is put, is hell - the grave, it may have other meanings too.

Psa_16:10  For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The psalmist here is speaking of Jesus.

The hell the OP is speaking of is the lake of fire where the unsaved go or are thrown. But is it eternal suffering there or eternal death.
I went with eternal death and gave a scripture or two showing that, but this thread has been derailed so much that I don't remember if scripture has been given implying otherwise, without reading through all the pages.

It is a good thread too. Can it continue under  sufferance, or is it gone forever.

Offline YesImAFreshman

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #64 on: Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 22:17:44 »
Hello inthenow,

My apologies for following the errant thread of the subject matter earlier.

I returned to re-read your posts concerning the use of the words eternal, and the the immortality of the soul.  I found most helpful what C. S. Lewis wrote in 'Mere Christianity' about our mortal perception of time and eternity as opposed to that of the living and eternal God who created us.  If we (mortals) limit God and the corresponding spiritual realm the to the contraints of our view/experience of time, it becomes even more difficult to understand the truth of His Word concerning things eternal and immortal.  Some here have defined the soul so as to include or be equal to the 'body'. However, the soul and body would, by implication of scripture, be separate and distinguishable (Matt 10:28) entities -- the body (flesh) now corruptible since the fall of man, and the soul (essence) as a portion of that eternal 'image of God' into which we have been made (created).  God is not under the limits of this construct of time in which we live and He has so wonderfully created. As such, He is able to see 'the beginning from the end', already knowing those who are His sheep and the goats (Matt 25:32-33) and knowing those who will " go away into eternal punishment, ....." Matt. 26:46

(eternal -- Grk 'aionios' meaning 'perpetual, everlasting' -- Strongs concordance)

In which of Jesus' other parables does he use personal names, and describe details as He does in His story of Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, speaking to the rich man in Hades?  Is He not speaking directly to the 'scoffing' Pharisees?  Could it be that they might know the actual person of whom Jesus  spoke?  Would this not provide a stinging conviction among them of His power and authority in the spiritual realm? Did Jesus not raise a 'Lazarus' from the grave, restoring his soul to a body which had 'fallen asleep'? Could it have been a prophetical look forward for someone present? God only knows.  But it does appear to be more of an account than a parable, in my observation at least.

The eternal fire of Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude v.7  ...in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire) which you have described in the physical sense, did have a physical ending on Earth.  As evidenced by Jesus' proclaimation (Luke 10:12 and following) that it will be "more tolerable in that (judgement)day for Sodom, than for that city", implies that spiritual punishment is yet to come (and apparently in varying degrees).  When Jesus spoke these things, the fires of those cities had, of course, long been extinguished.  Reason would therefore dictate, by chronology and tense, that Jesus was pointing forward to this coming punishment, which cannot be interpreted as anything other than eternal, perpetual, everlasting.

Personally, I do not revel in the thought of eternal punishment -- what a fearful thing, to fall into the hand of our Holy God.  But that it, isn't it?  We fall into His hands -- He will judge our hearts (not the bodily ones ;-))  He is a Holy God, full of all power and authority, yet He cannot do everything -- He cannot lie, He cannot contradict himself -- He is Truth.  So when He says 'eternal' I have no other recourse than to believe His Word. His Holiness demands it to be so -- not because He wants it so, but because He loves us so much that He would let us choose.  In 2Peter 3:9, we understand that God is 'not willing' (Grk - 'me boulomenos', not wanting, not wishing) does not express a decree, as if all will be saved; instead that while He longs for to be saved, but knows that many will reject him. 

C. S. Lewis agains illustrates the concept well when he describes the parent who instructs the child on how to clean up his room after himself, explaining the necessity of the task, and the penalty for not following the parental will.  When the child fails to clean the room, it is not the will (want, desire) of the parent that the room remains untidy, but a result of the choice that the child has made (free will). The penalty will be paid.  In our case, our righteous and holy God determines the punishment, and is kind enough to tell us quite clearly, whether we choose to accept it or not.

God bless, and thank you for your indulgence, Al

inthenow

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #65 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 17:26:41 »
Rev_20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Everyone dies once and is resurrected either to life or the second death, the second death for those who die twice appears to be everlasting.
This subject like so many can be seen otherwise. we will know it all, soon I hope.

1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Manna to you YesImAFreshman.

Offline ajb4

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #66 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 15:26:01 »
Rev. 20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.  This is the second death, the lake of fire.
        20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire

Perhaps another point of confusion is in our understanding of terms 'Hades' used in NT (Sheol in OT) as referring to 'Hell' and the Lake of Fire aka. 'Gehenna' (Tophet in OT).  Man's first death took place at Eden in the form of a separation from God's spirit.  But God's mercy gave a promise of redemption through the sacrifice of Jesus and return of the Holy Spirit to live within us. The second death takes place at the 'Gehenna', in the form of an eternal separation from the spirit

If we can understand the description of Hades in the events Jesus described concerning Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31, there are two spaces divided by a great gulf which cannot be crossed over.  On one side, the yet to be resurrected saints remain (evidenced by Abraham and Lazarus), and the other side, the condemned (evidenced by the rich man). It seems certain that the saints are in comfort, and the condemned are not.   Lazarus and the rich man could recognize each other, see, hear and speak, and so we surmise, were conscious in their disembodied state.  But Hades has been emptied of the saints which it held, considered to be the first fruits of the resurrection (Matt 27:53). Jesus has received the keys to death and Hades (Rev. 1:18), and brought the bodies of the saints to life by releasing their souls. The condemned remain there still -- but not eternally.

Eph. 4:8-10 Therefore he says, "When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men."Now this, "He ascended," what is it but that he also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?  He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

Hades is a temporal place, to be cast into Gehenna at the 'Great White Throne' judgement for it will have fulfilled it's purpose(Rev. 20:14).  The eternal Gehenna (Matt. 25:41) will hold the beast and the false prophet for the thousand year reign -- where Satan will join them.  (Rev. 20:10).  The first resurrection (Rev. 20:4-6) is of the saints, with their (glorified, immortal/incorruptible) bodies, reigning with Christ.  We then see that the 'dead' (condemned) are raised up from the sea, death and Hades (Rev. 20:13) suggesting the souls are returned to their bodies in some form to stand judgement -- for if their souls were in Hades, what would be given up from the sea?  (It would seem obvious, that condemned bodies will not be restored in the same manner as those of the believers.)

If death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, (Rev. 20:14), what death remains for the wicked who are cast into the lake of fire (Gehenna) following their judgement? Only the death of eternal separation from God, experienced by a soul without His Spirit. 

What soul, body or spirit has any understanding of punishment or loss if it ceases to exist?  What justice is recognized by the obliterated?

Do we readily accept eternal torment for Satan and his angels, but deny God would punish those who chose Satan over Him in like manner?

Are not men sons of Satan (John8:44) in their unregenerate state?

Are we not now those whom God gives the privilege to judge the angels? (1Cor. 6:3). 

The judgement of God is true and just, regardless of how we may want it to be.  We may find some comfort in the suggestion that punishment will having varying degrees (Luke 10:12). The truth is that we all deserve the judgement given to Satan and his angels.  But for the grace of God, through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, are we now preserved from eternal damnation.  It is and should be should be a stern warning and call to us all to proclaim the gospel at every opportunity. I will admit myself to be woefully remiss.  May you all be more diligent than I.

God bless you all -- let 'iron sharpen iron'

***To the south of Jerusalem was the 'Valley of Hinnom' where a high place called 'Tophet' once stood. It was at Tophet that parents made their children 'pass through the fire' kindled with brimstone, to honor the (false) god, 'Moloch'. This same place later became the area where the garbage from Jerusalem was taken to be burned.  The fires were kept burning continuously, while the unconsumed decaying matter bred worms that endured the perpetual heat.  This valley, originally called 'Ge-Hinnom' (later 'Gehenna') was alluded to, in nature, by Jesus (Mark 9:43-44) when He spoke of going 'to into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

(Paraphrased, The Spirit World, by Clarence Larkin)




ObeyTheGospel

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #67 on: Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 08:00:53 »
Let's have a short study to see what death really means:

I hate to say this, but Christians who say that Jesus Christ came to earth to save us from eternal torment just don't know their Bibles very well. When Adam and Eve sinned the result was death to all living creatures. Nobody went to heaven and nobody went to hell. Death is the opposite of life. Jesus Christ came to defeat death and to grant us eternal life by dying for our sins. It's a shame that most Christians can't take death literally. They can't accept that the wicked will literally die in the second death, so they are forced to say that death really means eternal life in the lake of fire. But let's see what punishment Jesus had to suffer:

The wages of sin is death. Jesus suffered the penalty for our sins by dying on the cross. If the penalty for sin is eternal, conscious torment, how could Jesus have payed for our sins? Jesus suffered on the cross and then died. The Bible says that he tasted death for everyone:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone (Hebrews 2:9).

Jesus suffered the final result of sin, which is literal death. How can Christians argue that death really means eternal life in hell when Jesus payed for our sins by dying literally? When Adam sinned he eventually died, literally:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22).

There are only two choices--life or death. A person can be spiritually dead if they are not a believer, but the final result of their sin is literal death. This is why the lake of fire is called the second death (Revelation 21:8). Jesus suffered on the cross and died. Those who are cast into the lake of fire will suffer according to their sins and will die. There will be no resurrection from the second death. It is an eternal punishment. No hope of ever seeing life:

Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death (John 8:51).

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him (John 3:36).

Seems very clear to me. The lake of fire is the ultimate death where the wicked will burn up and die without any hope of seeing life ever again. This is the punishment that Jesus suffered. The lake of fire is not eternal life in conscious torment, no matter how much Christians want to believe otherwise. But let's consider another reason why eternal torment makes no sense:

God says, "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:5). God also says, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17). God also says, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).

God will one day have a perfect universe that is fully cleansed of sin. Before Satan fell from heaven sin did not exist. However, if Satan, his demons, and the unsaved are going to burn forever in agonizing torment, how can there ever be complete peace in the universe? If evil is not annihilated then the universe will never be fully cleansed of sin. In order for the universe to be how it was when it was perfect, evil would have to be annihilated once and for all. We are going to enter a perfect universe where there is no more sin or suffering. Everything will be holy. But here is something else to think about:

How do you imagine God will feel if the unsaved burn forever? Is God able to just switch off His emotions? How would God ever find peace in His heart if the unsaved are suffering throughout eternity? The Bible says that God makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Think how much pain God is in right now due to all the suffering that is taking place around the world. Do you think God would ever enjoy paradise in the new heavens if His disobedient children were being tormented throughout eternity? Makes no sense at all.

Stephen

inthenow

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #68 on: Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 23:59:10 »
I think we can safely say that ' firy.hell is eternal
since it puts an end to all life Mal.4v3.
???

Mal 4:3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

There is never an end to life.

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #69 on: Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 00:30:06 »
I think we can safely say that ' firy.hell is eternal
since it puts an end to all life Mal.4v3.
???

Mal 4:3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

There is never an end to life.

All depends 'whose life' we are talking about !
Only God has 'eternal life and those to whom he gives it.
 The natural man only has 'temporary life that can be extinguished , so
there is an end to life for some.