Author Topic: Hell is not eternal torment  (Read 10058 times)

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inthenow

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #70 on: Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 17:32:06 »
That's diffrent to what you said.

Quote
I think we can safely say that ' firy.hell is eternal
since it puts an end to all life

Offline Beta

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #71 on: Sat Dec 24, 2011 - 04:43:42 »
That's diffrent to what you said.

Quote
I think we can safely say that ' firy.hell is eternal
since it puts an end to all life

OK friend , I could have been more precise !

But it seemed obvious to me that the Eternal God would be excluded since HE gives life in whatever form it is to be experienced...and without HIM there is no life.

But we see 'life in man, animals, plants, angels and even the devil.
None of these have life eternal and can be 'snuffed out. God grants whatever 'time-span he deems necessary....but sooner or later could end.
Obviously the fiery hell is the end for those cast into it ? ? ?

inthenow

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #72 on: Sat Dec 24, 2011 - 16:34:42 »
That's diffrent to what you said.

Quote
I think we can safely say that ' firy.hell is eternal
since it puts an end to all life

OK friend , I could have been more precise !

But it seemed obvious to me that the Eternal God would be excluded since HE gives life in whatever form it is to be experienced...and without HIM there is no life.

But we see 'life in man, animals, plants, angels and even the devil.
None of these have life eternal and can be 'snuffed out. God grants whatever 'time-span he deems necessary....but sooner or later could end.
Obviously the fiery hell is the end for those cast into it ? ? ?
I believe so to, some believe it's suffering forever, but theres nearly always diffrent views on diffrent topics.

Offline ajb4

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #73 on: Sun Dec 25, 2011 - 00:26:08 »
Hi Stephen,

Wonderful words of hope -- thank you for your responses.

I wondered if you might explain a couple of verses that I am personally having trouble resolving with your understanding of eternal torment / punishment.

You stated:

'Christians want to believe otherwise. But let's consider another reason why eternal torment makes no sense:

God says, "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:5). God also says, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17). God also says, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).'

I notice the scripture does not say He will be rid of the lake of fire, only that He will create a new heavens and new earth, and that the former things shall not be 'remembered or come to mind'.  Who shall not remember the old things -- the forgiven, or God?  Does God forget the trespasses of the wicked as He does the saved?

Also (in addressing His church) that their pain, death, suffering shall be removed, for those things have passed away (from them). Whose pain and suffering is removed -- that of the forgiven, of the wicked, or of God?  Does not Jesus yet bear the scars of His crucifixion on His glorified body?

Rev. 20:10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev. 20:14 Death and Hades{or, Hell} were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev. 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers,{The word for "sorcerers" here also includes users of potions and drugs.} idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Rev. 21:27 There will in no way enter into it (the holy city) anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev. 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
        14:11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

I know you think that Christians are in error for believing in eternal torment and have difficulty accepting literal death.  The truth is that there are a great number of very competent bible scholars that do not hold your point of view. 

The Matthew Henry commentary on Matt. 25:41-46 states:

"if they (the condemned) must depart, and depart with a curse, may they not go into some place of ease and rest? Will it not be misery enough?  No, there is a punishment of sense as well as loss;  they must depart into fire, into torment as grievous as that of fire is to the body, and much more. this fire is the wrath of the eternal God fastening upon the guilty souls and consciences of sinners that have made themselves fuel for it.  Our God is a consuming fire, and sinners fall immediately into His hands, (Hebrews 10:31, Romans 2:8,9).  If into a fire, may it not be some light or gentle fire?  No, it is a prepared fire; it is a torment ordained of old (Isaiah 30:33) ...In the vessels of wrath He makes His power known; it is a destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power....If into fire, prepared fire, O let it be of short continuance, let them but pass through the fire; No, the fire of God's wrath will be an everlasting fire; a fire that, fastening and preying upon immortal souls, can never go out for want of fuel; and being kindled and burning by the wrath of an immortal God, can never go out,....and the streams of mercy and grace being for ever excluded, there is nothing to extinguish it....If they must be doomed to such a state of endless misery, yet may they have some good company there? No, none but the devil and his angels, their sworn enemies, that helped to bring them to this misery, and will triumph over them in it.  They served the devil while they lived and therefore are justly sentenced to be where he is, as those who served Christ, are taken to be with Him where He is....  The fire is said to be prepared, not primarily for the wicked, as the kingdom is prepared for the righteous; but it was originally prepared for the devil and his angels. If sinners make themselves associates with Satan by indulging their lusts, they may thank themselves if they become sharers in that misery prepared for him (Satan) and his associates.  Calvin notes upon this, that therefore the torment of the damned is said to be prepared for the devil and his angels, to cut off all hope of escaping it; the devil and his angels are already made prisoners in the pit, and can the worms of the earth think to escape?

Walvoord  and Zuck Bible Knowledge Commentary (same verses) states ..

"They will be removed from the earth and cast into 'eternal fire' to undergo eternal punishment.  With all wickedness removed in the Second Advent, the kingdom will begin on earth with only saved individuals in physical bodies constituting the earthly kingdom as King's subjects."

And on Rev. 14:11 says:  "The doctrine of eternal punishment, while unpopular with liberal scholars and difficult to accept, is nevertheless clearly taught in the Bible.  Jesus and the Apostle John say more on this subject than does all the rest of the Bible."

The differing viewpoints perhaps come from a different understanding of who/what is being addressed in certain verses, the spiritual nature of death, and the utter holiness and justice of God. It is my understanding that the eternal God is concerned with the eternal nature of our lives, first and foremost.  Our physical / carnal bodies are but temporary vessels, bound for corruption, yet to be remade incorruptible (for the saved) to participate in the kingdom of God.  God does not need man, nor the love of man, for He was complete without mankind and would remain so if He had allowed all to perish.  That is the wonder of His love, mercy and sacrifice.  But He is Holy, and we are not.  He is a God of wrath as well as a God of love.  We cannot fathom, nor understand, nor judge His 'feelings', as His ways and thoughts are as high above ours as the heavens above the earth. 

When Christ cried out on the cross, "Why have you forsaken me?" was it the physical death, or the separation of His spirit from communion with the Father that He lamented?  Though He did die physically, what fear or distress would He, who had raised the dead Himself and foreknew His physical resurrection, dread? In my understanding, it was that spiritual separation from the Father that led Jesus to lament.  It was THAT death which He tasted for us all, that held eternal significance.  It is THAT death which we as sinners have had in Adam. And, if we are without His grace, we will experience it again at the lake of fire. The second death -- a death that is never finished.  It is we who are concerned with the carnal, temporal and perishable things, having eyes that do not see, and ears that do not hear.

We are made in His image. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  We are soul, body and spirit. That which is eternal is our eternal; that which is mortal and remade, has provided the way for our remaking, and that which speaks to us the things of the kingdom, communes us with His life-giving presence.

Will we then, make God in our image? Do we imagination to judge His judgement, and the deny His righteous punishment of those He called earnestly to save, but who rejected Him for the beast?  If He makes them ashes under His feet, as they burn for eternity, is it not His justice that is served, by rewarding the unrepentant with that which they have chosen?  He will not allow them mercy, for they chose none.  He will not care for them below, as they cared for Satan above Him.  God will remove His redeemed from knowledge, concern and care for the wicked, for it is the eternal smoke of their torment that rises up before Him for ever and ever. He will not forget their sins, for that grace belongs to His children alone.

I admit, it is a most unpleasant consideration, but difficult to dogmatically deny by the scriptures.  It strikes fear into my soul as I study to see if it is so. Let's both pray and make our purpose more sure to share the gospel of truth as often as we are given opportunity, so that we do not see those we have known fall into any other fate than that which we claim in Christ.

My apologies for the length of the post.  God bless you brother.

 

Offline freeman4

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #74 on: Mon Jan 09, 2012 - 17:30:31 »
Greetings:

  Eze 28:18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.[/u] 


 Eze 28:19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And [shall be] no more forever." ' 

Please notice that this was Satan to whom God was talking. And God told him that he would be destroyed in fire and turned to ashes. verse 18:

verse 19: states that he, satan, would be no mre, dead forever.

freeman4:

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #75 on: Tue Jan 10, 2012 - 14:50:11 »
Greetings:

  Eze 28:18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.[/u] 


 Eze 28:19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And [shall be] no more forever." ' 

Please notice that this was Satan to whom God was talking. And God told him that he would be destroyed in fire and turned to ashes. verse 18:

verse 19: states that he, satan, would be no mre, dead forever.

freeman4:

Yes , for a long time I used to think satan being spirit would exist for ever...but once we find the right scripture we know that will not be so.

satan will cease to be...because ONLY GOD's OWN HOLY SPIRIT IS ETERNAL...
no other.  ::amen!::

Offline ajb4

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #76 on: Sun Jan 15, 2012 - 22:26:07 »
Hello again Beta and freeman4,

Wondered if one of you might explain Rev. 20:10 in light of your view of Eze.28:

Eze. 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (KJV)

Rev. 20:10 The devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. (KJV)

It seems to me that the Ezekiel passage is talking about a destruction of the physical flesh, as described in Rev. 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This would most certainly explain the (fleshly) 'ashes', but the souls/spirits of these beings would remain in eternal torment.

In keeping with the comparison of 'scripture against scripture' to discover it's meaning, this seems to resolve what seems an apparent contradiction according to your stated viewpoint. Of course, this would mean God created some part of our being to be eternal ;-)

God bless you both.


Offline Rudy2D

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #77 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 08:26:14 »
In you believe in everlasting life, then you have to believe in everlasting punishment. Its in the same sentence, and the same word, in Matthew, and Daniel. So you have a Old and New Testament supporting the idea behind eternal, or everlasting life, verses, everlasting punishment.

Annihilation is indeed everlasting punishment; and everlasting life is the gracious gift of God to the redeemed.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #78 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 09:26:59 »
Annihilation is indeed everlasting punishment;

Not really. 
The punishment is by definition over and done when the person being punished is annihilated.

Offline Rudy2D

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #79 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 10:08:50 »
Annihilation is indeed everlasting punishment;

Not really. 
The punishment is by definition over and done when the person being punished is annihilated.

Draw it with Venn diagrams; if annihilation is the punishment and annihilation is eternal--the punishment is eternal.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #80 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 10:24:46 »
Draw it with Venn diagrams; if annihilation is the punishment and annihilation is eternal--the punishment is eternal.

Venn diagrams?  Really?

This is NOT a thing to be scientifically analyzed.  That whole process is from Greek paganism (via Aristotle) and has NO PLACE in biblical theology. Stop thinking like a 21st century westerner and start thinking like a first century Jew.

Punishment existed only as long as the recipient was receiving it.  If there is no recipient, the punishment ends. 

Offline Rudy2D

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #81 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 10:53:21 »
Draw it with Venn diagrams; if annihilation is the punishment and annihilation is eternal--the punishment is eternal.

Venn diagrams?  Really?

This is NOT a thing to be scientifically analyzed.  That whole process is from Greek paganism (via Aristotle) and has NO PLACE in biblical theology. Stop thinking like a 21st century westerner and start thinking like a first century Jew.

Punishment existed only as long as the recipient was receiving it.  If there is no recipient, the punishment ends.

I used Venn diagrams because they are valid, whether you are playing semantic games or are just incredibly lacking in knowledge.  And "punishment" is only one of many various words used to translate the Greek original.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #82 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 12:07:02 »
No semantic games.  Neither would I be described as "incredibly lacking in knowledge."

I have preached in churches. Rabbis have asked me to teach in their synagogues. (I will be again this Sabbath) And I was a mechanical design engineer for 20 years.

One of the things I have learned in my 50+ years of being a New Covenant believer is that looking at scriptural text from a 20th-21st century western mindset can lead anyone to false conclusions. 

The ONLY way to understand what the original authors were trying to say is by adopting a first century Jewish (both at home and Greek diaspora) view and mindset.

Their world view was different. Even the logic system is different. (Hebrew Block Logic, aka Adductive logic) Induction and deduction are of limited use. Abstraction is absolutely out. Hebrew logic is entirely relational, and sometimes circular.  It can handle apparent contradictions as long as they are in differing blocks.

That kind of renders a Venn diagram useless.

Since this is RELATIONAL - punishment cannot happen if there is no recipient.
Punishment without a recipient is way too abstract for Hebraic thought.
So if the recipient is gone - so is the punishment.

Offline Rudy2D

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #83 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 13:18:47 »
So logic ceases to be logic--or doesn't apply--when used outside of the logicians milieu?
That is preposterous.

And I didn't ask for--nor am I impressed by--your resume.  There are plenty of pulpits occupied by those who have no business there. 

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #84 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 13:39:42 »
So logic ceases to be logic--or doesn't apply--when used outside of the logicians milieu?
That is preposterous.

Fine.  Prove to me that what you call logic (invented by someone who bowed down to zeus and hera and apollo) is something we should be using to analyze the words of the God of Abraham Isaac and Israel.

And show me how that Aristotleian logic is used to prove that Paul did not preach abandoning Moses to diaspora Jews (Acts 21.21-26)
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 13:48:00 by DaveW »

Offline Rudy2D

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #85 on: Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 16:29:17 »
So logic ceases to be logic--or doesn't apply--when used outside of the logicians milieu?
That is preposterous.

Fine.  Prove to me that what you call logic (invented by someone who bowed down to zeus and hera and apollo) is something we should be using to analyze the words of the God of Abraham Isaac and Israel.

God is the Father of logic:  "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: . .  . (Is. 1:18a)


And show me how that Aristotleian logic is used to prove that Paul did not preach abandoning Moses to diaspora Jews (Acts 21.21-26)

I have no interest in chasing your bogus straw men.  And you previously said

One of the things I have learned in my 50+ years of being a New Covenant believer is that looking at scriptural text from a 20th-21st century western mindset can lead anyone to false conclusions. 

The ONLY way to understand what the original authors were trying to say is by adopting a first century Jewish (both at home and Greek diaspora) view and mindset.

All well and good, as applies to hermeneutics, exegesis and the historicity of Jesus; but it has no application to logic per se

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #86 on: Wed Jun 26, 2013 - 08:58:46 »
Quote
All well and good, as applies to hermeneutics, exegesis and the historicity of Jesus; but it has no application to logic per se. 

Actually it does.  There are many times in scripture that there are so-called "paradoxes." Things that according to our logic cannot be possibly both true but they are.

When you start to understand their logic system you see how that can be.

Take Jesus for example.  He healed a guy and then told him to carry his bed on the sabbath.  Carrying the bed was explicitly forbidden in the OT. (a guy got killed for carrying sticks) Healing may have broken the sabbath as well.  (at least Jesus never argued that it did NOT break sabbath OR that He Himself superseded the sabbath) Telling someone to break a scriptural command was in itself a transgression of the Law.

IT is sin to heal, to carry, and to instruct someone to violate a scriptural command, HOW did He logicly still remain sinless?  Remember Paul says He was born "under the Law." That means if He broke it at any point He invalidated his claims to Messiahship and his ability to be our sinless sacrifice for sin.

It is not a mystery or a paradox or Him setting aside the Law. Hebraic logic proved He and his followers were blameless in their violations. Even to the Pharisees who opposed him.

Offline Rudy2D

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #87 on: Wed Jun 26, 2013 - 09:10:06 »
You've proven nothing.  Logic is logic--whether Greek, Jewish, Hindi or Zoroastrian.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #88 on: Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 06:47:06 »
You've proven nothing.  Logic is logic--whether Greek, Jewish, Hindi or Zoroastrian.

Do you have chapter and verse on that?

If not .....

Offline Rudy2D

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #89 on: Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 07:34:07 »
You've proven nothing.  Logic is logic--whether Greek, Jewish, Hindi or Zoroastrian.

Do you have chapter and verse on that?

If not .....

Is. 1:18: και δευτε και διελεγχθωμεν λεγει κυριος και εαν ωσιν αι αμαρτιαι υμων ως φοινικουν ως χιονα λευκανω εαν δε ωσιν ως κοκκινον ως εριον λευκανω

"So come and let us be logical, says the Lord:  although your sins are like scarlet, they shall be snow white; though they are red like crimson, they shall become white like wool."
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 07:52:04 by Rudy2D »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #90 on: Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 08:00:22 »
 WHAT? Isaiah is in HEBREW, NOT GREEK!

Isa 1:18: 
לְכוּ־נָא וְנִוָּֽכְחָה יֹאמַר יְהוָה אִם־יִֽהְיוּ חֲטָאֵיכֶם כַּשָּׁנִים כַּשֶּׁלֶג יַלְבִּינוּ אִם־יַאְדִּימוּ כַתֹּולָע כַּצֶּמֶר יִהְיֽוּ׃

yakach (Strongs H3198) means  reason together, prove, decide, judge, rebuke, reprove, correct

"Be logical" is NOT one of the definitions.

Edited to add:

Even if it did mean "be logical," it does NOT say which logic framework is to be used.  And I have already told you the logic framework of scripture is DIFFERENT than we understand.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 08:04:16 by DaveW »

Offline Rudy2D

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #91 on: Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 12:34:37 »
WHAT? Isaiah is in HEBREW, NOT GREEK!

Isa 1:18: 
לְכוּ־נָא וְנִוָּֽכְחָה יֹאמַר יְהוָה אִם־יִֽהְיוּ חֲטָאֵיכֶם כַּשָּׁנִים כַּשֶּׁלֶג יַלְבִּינוּ אִם־יַאְדִּימוּ כַתֹּולָע כַּצֶּמֶר יִהְיֽוּ׃

yakach (Strongs H3198) means  reason together, prove, decide, judge, rebuke, reprove, correct

"Be logical" is NOT one of the definitions.

Edited to add:

Even if it did mean "be logical," it does NOT say which logic framework is to be used.  And I have already told you the logic framework of scripture is DIFFERENT than we understand.

The Septuagint --written by greater scholars than you--is what I quoted--and it can be translated "be logical;" and I have already told you that I don't hold with your opinion regarding logic and scripture:

 
One of the things I have learned in my 50+ years of being a New Covenant believer is that looking at scriptural text from a 20th-21st century western mindset can lead anyone to false conclusions. 

The ONLY way to understand what the original authors were trying to say is by adopting a first century Jewish (both at home and Greek diaspora) view and mindset.

All well and good, as applies to hermeneutics, exegesis and the historicity of Jesus; but it has no application to logic per se.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #92 on: Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 13:03:16 »
Quote
The Septuagint --written by greater scholars than you--is what I quoted--and it can be translated "be logical;
A translation of a translation.  Great.  That means you have twice as much chance for error in the outcome.

Hebrew => Greek LXX => English.

Why not skip the middle step and just go with the Hebrew?

[and yes - I did understand you were using the LXX]

Offline Rudy2D

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #93 on: Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 13:27:23 »
A translation of a translation.  Great.  That means you have twice as much chance for error in the outcome.

Hebrew => Greek LXX => English.

Why not skip the middle step and just go with the Hebrew?


I'm much more proficient in Classical Greek.  The Septuagint is generally held to be as reliable as the Hebrew, and was much more widely quoted by the New Testament authors than was the Hebrew Masoretic Text:

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/in-which-passages-does-jesus-quote-the-septuagint-and-where-does-the-new-testament-al

I could dig up other references if required.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 13:32:50 by Rudy2D »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #94 on: Fri Jun 28, 2013 - 05:29:33 »
But it is still a translation of a translation. 

The reason the LXX gets quoted so much in the NT is that when EITHER the Aramaic conversations were translated the authors used the existing Greek translation (rather than re-translating) or they were quoting from a now-lost Hebrew text called the Proto-Septuagint and translating it afresh came out the same. We do have a partial of the prophets including much of Isaiah in the dead sea scrolls.   It shows that the Masoretic is pretty close.

So to do the kind of word parsing you are doing; it is always best to go to the original.

Offline Rudy2D

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #95 on: Fri Jun 28, 2013 - 15:13:06 »
But it is still a translation of a translation. 

The reason the LXX gets quoted so much in the NT is that when EITHER the Aramaic conversations were translated the authors used the existing Greek translation (rather than re-translating) or they were quoting from a now-lost Hebrew text called the Proto-Septuagint and translating it afresh came out the same. We do have a partial of the prophets including much of Isaiah in the dead sea scrolls.   It shows that the Masoretic is pretty close.

So to do the kind of word parsing you are doing; it is always best to go to the original.

If the LXX was good enough for the God-inspired writers of the NT--it's good enough for me.

Offline willieH

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #96 on: Mon Aug 26, 2013 - 17:00:55 »
Based on a few misunderstandings of scripture, the majority of Christians believe that lost souls are going to burn forever in a pit of burning sulphur without any hope of rest or peace. This teaching has even caused many Christian to live in fear in case they end up in hell fire. But is this what the Bible really teaches.

God bless


First...   Actually the teaching of HELL is a FALLACY to begin with... matter of fact... the MAJORITY of English translations does not even use this term even ONCE!


Second... The teaching of HELL (in any duration) is COMPLETELY contrary to the SUCCESSFUL ACCOMPLISHMENT -- Isaiah 55:11 -- of the stated MISSION of JESUS CHRIST... to SAVE the WORLD -- Luke 19:10 -- 1 John 4:14 -- John 1:29 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- 1 Tim 4:9-11 -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- 2 Pet 3:9


Third...  The use of the word ETERNAL (forever, or everlasting), cannot be validly used by FINITE human beings which do not have comprehension of its parameters which INCLUDE -- WITHOUT BEGINNING.   


Until someone/anyone can explain how something (including GOD), can BE - WITHOUT BEGINNING - and convey exactly "how that works",  ...then he/she is employing a term that he/she is unable to DEFINE, and thereby INVALIDATES any usage of it accordingly.   Especially when this term is falsely employed by attempting to attach that term unto another FINITE human being. 


IOW -- unto the users of this term... I challenge you to CLEARLY explain the UNBEGINNINGNESS of YHVH God.  How is it that HE has NO BEGINNING?  And in your explanation, please include what that "UNBEGINNING", entails.


Fourth...  The FALSE proposal that YHVH GOD, who CLEARLY states that He not only LOVES the WORLD (unchangingly and eternally - Mal 3:4 ) but "SO" LOVES the WORLD...  shall bring UNENDING / UNBEGINNING harm unto those whom He "SO LOVES", is a COMPLETELY  contradictory proposal... 


The MISSION of CHRIST was to SAVE the WORLD... any proposal of HELL or ANNHILATION, stands in DIRECT opposition to that MISSION and in its UNSPIRITUAL AUDACITY, ...proposes the MISSION to be a FAILURE.   ::frown::  Which is, according to SCRIPTURE not possible -- Isaiah 55:11


Unfortunately modern Christian TRADITION -- Mark 7:7-9 -- has falsely established these AWFUL teachings in the stead of the GOOD NEWS (Euaggelizo -- #G2097) which CHRIST instructed them to bring to the WORLD -- Luke 2:10 -- Mark 16:15 -- Matt 28:19-20 (that GOD SO LOVES)...  is the ultimate tragedy befalling MOST of those (of modern Christianity) who claim to be COME in the name of JESUS CHRIST -- Matt 7:22-23  ::deepsleep::


I will be happy to have a discussion with those Christians who hold to this view and show them how they have misunderstood the scriptures. I'm always open for a friendly discussion. Jesus said "Come, let us reason together."


Love that verse -- Isaiah 1:18 --  But its a shame that this post proposes fallacy, not REASON.


What REASON is found in either of the proposals of HELL or ANNHILATION?    Where is ANY attribute of GOD found in these two?  What LOVE is seen in these?  PEACE?   How can His MERCY last forever -- Psalm 136 (entire chapter) -- when He is busily tormenting men in HELL?  Or where might that MERCY be found, amidst His ANNHILATION of them?


The TRUTH is that neither of these unfortunate fallacies are actually teachings of the WORD


Not only is great misunderstanding the basis of them both, but within their proposals, they certainly propose INSULT to the MISSION of CHRIST (which YHVH God ORDAINED), pertaining to said mission's SUCCESSFUL accomplishment!


God concluded us all IN UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- to live a "vapor" of a life -- James 4:14 -- and then on an "ETERNAL" basis, He "never gets over His anger"?   That makes REASONABLE sense to you?


I see it as totally UNREASONABLE and contrary to the Scriptures which CLEARLY NOTE that EVERYTHING unto which HIS WORD is applied, shall BE ACCOMPLISHED -- Isaiah 55:11 -- and that the WRATH of GOD is momentary, not ETERNAL -- Isaiah 54:7-8 -- Isaiah 26:20


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH

Offline Helen

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #97 on: Mon Aug 26, 2013 - 17:11:02 »
Well, I guess you think Jesus didn't know what he was talking about in Matthew 25, when Jesus closes the parable of the sheep and the goats, saying, 'Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.'

Offline willieH

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #98 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 15:37:53 »
Well, I guess you think Jesus didn't know what he was talking about in Matthew 25, when Jesus closes the parable of the sheep and the goats, saying, 'Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.'


Hi Helen... I appreciate, and give thanks unto our Father YHVH God, ...for the opportunity to witness to you...  ::bowing:: ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th   ::groupprayer::


It is the WORKS or Humanity, which are tried Helen.   That "trial" is noted here:  -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- The sheep and goats are metaphors for the works of CHRIST in us (sheep hear and follow), and the works of OURS (goats do not hear, nor follow) in us -- all have "sheep" [CHRIST working] and "goats" [sin working]  within.   


ALL WORKS (good or evil) are placed upon the ONLY FOUNDATION that exists -- 1 Cor 3:11 --  In that placing, those works either ABIDE (which were done BY CHRIST in us -- Gal 2:20) or they are BURNED up (swallowed by the passing moments of the FIRE of time).


THIS life IS the Lake of Fire into which are cast, ALL who have at any moment violated ANY of these: -- Rev 21:8


This "FIRE" is illustrated in the "Burning Bush" which is AMIDST fire, but APPEARS unaffected by it -- Ex 3:2 -- in which the FIRE (of time which we are amidst, as was the "bush"),  finds destruction of the works which are according to the LAWS of HOLINESS, unacceptable within the LIVING EXPERIENCE.   


Though destruction occurs within this process to some degree in ALL (and almost totally in SOME),  ...the FIRE saves, albeit with the accompanying LOSSES of those moments in which RIGHTEOUSNESS did not appear -- 1 Cor 3:15


It appears that you haven't yet discovered that JESUS is to be BEHELD, as the "LAMB of God that TAKETH AWAY the SIN of the WORLD" -- John 1:9 -- Until YOU or any other behold HIM (in this manner) as WHO HE IS (the Lamb TAKING AWAY the sin of the WORLD), then you shall continue to have the VEIL of TRADITION -- Mark 7:7-9 -- upon your vision...  As well, ...within that VEILING shall you also fail to SEE that His MISSION was to SAVE that which was LOST -- Luke 19:10 -- ALL men/women ...are "LOST".


JESUS in Scripture, is indicated as the WORD of YHVH -- Heb 1:3 -- 13:8 -- John 1:1 -- which was SENT to SAVE the WORLD -- 1 John 4:14 -- He did just that, as Scripture indicates -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- During which He DID NOTHING -- John 5:19 -- as well as SAID NOTHING -- John 12:49 --  of Himself, rather He DID and SAID ...as DOES YHVH God


Scripture also CLEARLY attests,  ...that whatsoever YHVH God SENDS His WORD to accomplish (such as SAVING the WORLD) SHALL be ACCOMPLISHED! -- Isaiah 55:11 -- That MEN either do not or will not SEE (or "believe") this, does not preclude nor negate its TRUTH.


2 Pet 3:9 -- IS the CLEAR statement of INTENT concerning YHVH GOD's will in this matter ("not willing" = BOULEMA - #1014 = Resolve, intent)


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH 
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 31, 2013 - 22:09:45 by willieH »

Offline Helen

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #99 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 15:45:53 »
"they" is not works -- it refers to living things -- the sheep and the goats.  Nor is this the lake of fire.  You appear to have invented your own theology here.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #100 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 15:59:43 »
Well, I guess you think Jesus didn't know what he was talking about in Matthew 25, when Jesus closes the parable of the sheep and the goats, saying, 'Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.'
 

Yes, no mistake there. Jesus own words.

Offline willieH

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #101 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 21:06:13 »
"they" is not works -- it refers to living things -- the sheep and the goats.  Nor is this the lake of fire.  You appear to have invented your own theology here.

Though there is such a LARGE picture (which includes the "Lake of Fire") that can be shown you, however, ...there is not much point in going to such detail which is time consuming (I'm in chemotherapy so, I shall not waste moments which I have remaining to speak unto ears which are unavailable) as yours (at least up to now), are unreceptive to what I have to say... but I will address the smaller issue (the "Sheep & Goats")...


The first thing that really arises a big giggle in me  rofl ...is that each Christian which speaks about this passage WITHOUT EXCEPTION (for over 13 years of discussion of this passage), consider themselves of the "SHEEP"...  and in doing so, somehow DELUDE themselves into thinking that it is become their position to determine and settle eternity for NON-Christians (which they once were themselves) which are considered by them in their UNRIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT -- Matt 7:1 -- as the "GOATS"...  Such are in for a BIG BIG surprise.  Which shall come from the ONE which says that He shall come in an hour YE THINK NOT!  ::frown::


Actually, EVERY WORD of God is SPIRITUAL and must be SPIRITUALLY (not "literally") discerned -- 1 Cor 2:14 -- in order to garner SPIRITUAL TRUTH from it.  This means that the LITERAL observation of Scripture... (though at times contains LITERAL persons, and historical events which actually occurred) is always MUCH less than what is actually there.  The SPIRITUAL is a VAST OCEAN... the LITERAL is a small puddle by comparison.


That you are invested in the LITERAL, is indication of the brand of "theology" you are immersed within, and is entirely based upon the SURFACE of what is really there.  No offense intended toward you, but ...ATHEISTS (which not only do not "believe" in, but stand firmly against the very concept of DIVINE existence)... will deduce the very same things as have your "theology" presents concerning this passage of Scripture. 


The Lord JESUS is speaking in PARABLES - which are of the MOST FIGURATIVE and NON-LITERAL of Biblical language... the mention of "sheep and goats"...  is PARABOLIC.


Even though JESUS is speaking figuratively before and after the mention of SHEEP & GOATS... you shall deem these to be LITERAL human beings... going to LITERAL places (a LITERAL Kingdom of Heaven and LITERAL "everlasting fire")... Yet you accept that JESUS is using Himself metaphorically as the one fed, or the one visited in prison?  How wishy washy is  that?  Picking and choosing what part of SPIRITUAL text shall be LITERAL and what part shall be SPIRITUAL?  I think it is YOU dear Helen that is inventing THEOLOGY... while unwilling to see through this varying method of deception you use in reading the Holy WORD.   


Making the WORD subject to YOUR choosings of LITERAL and SPIRITUAL... instead of submitting unto the WORD, and its completely SPIRITUAL discernments -- 1 Cor 2:14


Shall we get REAL LITERAL and develop this a step further?  In the text following the Sheep & Goats, JESUS notes that it was HE that is LITERALLY fed, when a human being is fed?  Or it is HE which is LITERALLY visited in prison whenever a human in prison is visited? 


Have you ever served at a homeless shelter?  I have, and never ONCE did I see JESUS being fed at dinner.  I have visited one in prison, but JESUS was not the one I visited.  What I experienced in the Shelter, was what HE would do and DOES.   He would have us DO unto others as we would have them DO unto us... and when this actually is DONE... then when you give something unto me, that you would have me give unto you, ...then indeed HE is giving as you (because you are just like Him) ...and HE is receiving as I (because I am just like Him)!


You say that the sheep and goats are LITERALLY humans being separated... and yet you accept the figurative offerings that come next in the context?  And the figurative words that preceeded in context, the "sheep & goats"?  You INSERT the LITERAL amidst a SPIRITUAL story, and bring THAT to the WORLD that GOD so LOVES?


This is the double mindedness that Modern Christianity has developed...


Taking the WORD of God and applying to IT themselves as it BENEFITS THEM, while applying it to others UNBENEFICIALLY?   ::juggle:: 


A SINNER, proclaiming judgment of others, failing to drop his/her stone, UNWILLING to see what Scripture TRUTHFULLY SAYS ---  (1) - self oriented and - (2) - self centered -- holding the perception of oneself as a saved sheep while teaching condemnation of another sinner which one do not even KNOW, as a lost goat!   


Believing that ones salvation to has come to them via the BACKWARD vision which observes that salvation became valid via - ONES APPROVAL of JESUS (by "accepting" CHRIST = the SINFUL "accepting" the HOLY), rather than entering into the GRAND and MAJESTIC humility of HIS APPROVAL of you (CHRIST "accepting you" = The HOLY accepting the SINFUL), ...failing to see that neither SHEEP nor GOAT can even possibly SAVE themselves due to their own doing or choosing...


This is far short of receiving REVELATION.  I hope you reconsider your present position, and will be in prayer about it!  ::prayinghard::


You are more than welcome to dwell where you are... doesn't matter to me... the increase is His to give or not -- 1 Cor 3:7 -- according to HIS WILL... which I LOVE... and of the depths of my heart, ...I wish you the greatest measure possible of His...


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 31, 2013 - 22:16:38 by willieH »

Offline Beta

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #102 on: Thu Sep 05, 2013 - 12:45:04 »
Hi willieH
I am having some trouble understanding you....too much info in one go !
If I get you right are you saying it is the 'good or evil that we do which is being judged by God/Christ and that is what is being 'corrected in us to lead us into eternal life....because it is not God's Will that any should perish. So it is not 'people who will perish in fire everlasting but our 'bad deeds will be burned up ?
Please keep your answer simple , one step at the time !

Offline willieH

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #103 on: Thu Sep 05, 2013 - 17:11:36 »
Hi willieH
I am having some trouble understanding you....too much info in one go !
If I get you right are you saying it is the 'good or evil that we do which is being judged by God/Christ and that is what is being 'corrected in us to lead us into eternal life....because it is not God's Will that any should perish. So it is not 'people who will perish in fire everlasting but our 'bad deeds will be burned up ?
Please keep your answer simple , one step at the time !


Exactly Jeff!  The works which are EVIL, will not abide in the eternal, nor survive this realm of time...


This LIFE is the LAKE of FIRE mentioned in the book of Revelation.  Each work of EVIL, passes into eternal NON-existence. 


On the other hand, ...the WORKS of CHRIST in us -- Gal 2:20 -- will survive this realm, and thereby memorialize His GLORY forever.


JESUS (and the PERFECT and COMPLETE work of His CROSS to reconcile us - Col 1:20) -- is "taking away" -- John 1:29 -- the SIN of the WORLD,  ...moment by moment,  ...life by life...  ::clappingoverhead::


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH

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Re: Hell is not eternal torment
« Reply #104 on: Fri Sep 06, 2013 - 03:01:52 »
Hi again, Yes I can agree with what you say above...so
can we connect our human suffering to the fact of having our sins erased,forgiven, wiped out AS we get rid of it ? Are we healed of sufferings when we stop sinning ?
(by suffering I mean illness, bad things going on in our life)