Christian Forums and Message Board

Christian Interests => Non-Traditional Theology => Theology Forum => Annihilationism => Topic started by: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:01:28

Title: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:01:28
Based on a few misunderstandings of scripture, the majority of Christians believe that lost souls are going to burn forever in a pit of burning sulphur without any hope of rest or peace. This teaching has even caused many Christian to live in fear in case they end up in hell fire. But is this what the Bible really teaches. I will be happy to have a discussion with those Christians who hold to this view and show them how they have misunderstood the scriptures. I'm always open for a friendly discussion. Jesus said "Come, let us reason together."

God bless
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Supplanter on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:57:45
Hi,

Welcome to the forum, but this is not the theology. I am on my phone and will not be able to move the post to the appropriate place until later, but please try to post topics in their most appropriate forums. Very good topic though. Thanks!
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: TJW on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 12:09:26
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends.  I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.

I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Debbie_55 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 12:18:09
Many scriptures depict hell as fire and brimstone burning for eternity, but none of us actually knows what it will look like or feel to be cast there. In my own minds eye I see hell as a place where those who have rejected God, whether they be good or bad people, burning in a torment (fire and brimstone could be a metaphor for torment) of having to see those who have heard the call of God and have accepted Him and now live in a place of paradise with all the fullness of God in all His glory. No more tears, no more hurts, pain sickness, etc, etc. Those in hell are outside the realm of God continuing in all their sin, sickness, hurts, pain tears, etc. etc., but can see those who are in the glory of the Lord like looking through a window and wanting what others have, but will never have it and this is their torment for eternity as they are constantly consumed with the fire that burns in their souls for what they have rejected and now to late to receive.

God said that he would that none should perish, but those who have rejected God and His word are those who will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity by their own choice, even if they do not believe in Heaven or Hell, we believe because we know that Gods word is truth and does not come back void in our lives.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7 as they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 and I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 and I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 and he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 and he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 but the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 12:51:33
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends.  I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.

I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.


The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.

The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were  annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.

The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.

Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Ladonia on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 13:03:22
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends.  I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.

I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.


The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.

The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were  annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.

The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.



So it is you who now has the  correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures.  Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 13:39:50
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends.  I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.

I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.


The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.

The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were  annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.

The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.



So it is you who now has the  correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures.  Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!

I'm sorry if this offends you. I thought as Christians we should be able to disagree in a friendly manner. It seems a lot of Christians get angry these days, especially when someone doesn't believe that a lost soul will be tortured for eternity. All I am doing is giving the other side of the story. I am showing that scripture can be distorted by people who do not dig below the surface. I don't know why you had to get sarcastic. Did I touch a nerve or something?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Ladonia on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 15:30:36
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends.  I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.

I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.


The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.

The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were  annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.

The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.



So it is you who now has the  correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures.  Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!

I'm sorry if this offends you. I thought as Christians we should be able to disagree in a friendly manner. It seems a lot of Christians get angry these days, especially when someone doesn't believe that a lost soul will be tortured for eternity. All I am doing is giving the other side of the story. I am showing that scripture can be distorted by people who do not dig below the surface. I don't know why you had to get sarcastic. Did I touch a nerve or something?

Well, when you started out with "the problem with Christians today is they take a verse....".  So, you are the only one who does? Accusing others from the outset that they don't? Maybe they do and perhaps don't see the particular verses in quite the same light as you do. I am all for friendly discussion, quote a verse, tell your opinion, but accusations right from the start?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 15:41:08
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends.  I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.

I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.


The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.

The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were  annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.

The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.



So it is you who now has the  correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures.  Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!

I'm sorry if this offends you. I thought as Christians we should be able to disagree in a friendly manner. It seems a lot of Christians get angry these days, especially when someone doesn't believe that a lost soul will be tortured for eternity. All I am doing is giving the other side of the story. I am showing that scripture can be distorted by people who do not dig below the surface. I don't know why you had to get sarcastic. Did I touch a nerve or something?

Well, when you started out with "the problem with Christians today is they take a verse....".  So, you are the only one who does? Accusing others from the outset that they don't? Maybe they do and perhaps don't see the particular verses in quite the same light as you do. I am all for friendly discussion, quote a verse, tell your opinion, but accusations right from the start?

In all fairness a lot of Christians do take verses out of context without digging below the surface. And even if I come across as a little offensive, shouldn't you have prayed for me instead of replying with sarcasm? I thought Christians are suppose to love each other?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Ladonia on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 16:02:53
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends.  I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.

I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.


The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.

The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were  annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.

The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.



So it is you who now has the  correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures.  Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!

I'm sorry if this offends you. I thought as Christians we should be able to disagree in a friendly manner. It seems a lot of Christians get angry these days, especially when someone doesn't believe that a lost soul will be tortured for eternity. All I am doing is giving the other side of the story. I am showing that scripture can be distorted by people who do not dig below the surface. I don't know why you had to get sarcastic. Did I touch a nerve or something?

Well, when you started out with "the problem with Christians today is they take a verse....".  So, you are the only one who does? Accusing others from the outset that they don't? Maybe they do and perhaps don't see the particular verses in quite the same light as you do. I am all for friendly discussion, quote a verse, tell your opinion, but accusations right from the start?

In all fairness a lot of Christians do take verses out of context without digging below the surface. And even if I come across as a little offensive, shouldn't you have prayed for me instead of replying with sarcasm? I thought Christians are suppose to love each other?

You are correct, prayer would have been better (after a gentle admonition without  the sarcasm). I apologize for my poor response. And if you would pray for me it would be appreciated. Thanks, and may God bless you always!
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: LaSpino3 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 18:51:21
ObeyTheGospel,  "If the story Jesus told about the rich man and the poor man is not true, and just a parable, and you claim it is a parable, what moral or spiritual truth is it teaching. What exactly are you saying it symbolizes? and what is the lession it teaches if a parable?"

Also eternal means, perpetual, everlasting. Scriptures teach, that God is eternal.

Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God." 

The Holy Spirit is eternal, Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit,

Scriptures teach, Matt.19:29, Whoever gives up all they have and follows Jesus, He said, they "Shall inherit everlasting life."

For those who do as the rich man did to Lazaras, Jesus said, Matt.25:41, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Compare to,

Matt.25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal." Compare with,

Dan.12:2, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

In you believe in everlasting life, then you have to believe in everlasting punishment. Its in the same sentence, and the same word, in Matthew, and Daniel. So you have a Old and New Testament supporting the idea behind eternal, or everlasting life, verses, everlasting punishment.

Eternal: 166. Greek is, aionios. Perpetual, everlasting, eternal.
   a-1. Spoken chiefly of time future, of God, Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." 1 Tim.
6:16. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God." 
   a-2. Of the happiness of the righteous, Matt.19:29, 25:46, "Everlasting punishment." Mark 10:30, "Eternal life." John 3:15-16-36. Rom.2:7. 2 Cor.4:17. In some passages this, "May have life eternal, is equivalent to, John 3:15, coll. with ver.3-5. Matt.19:16. Acts 13:46.
   a-3. Of the punishment of the wicked, Matt.18:8, 25:41-46. Mark 3:29, "Eternal damnation." 2 Thes.1:9. Heb.6:2. Jude 7. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting," Dan.12:2.
   a-4. Genr. 2 Cor.4:18, 5:1. Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit, "Heb.13:20. 1 John 1:2. Rev.
14:6. Philem.15, as an adverb. "Forever," always. Sept. for Heb. Gen.9:16. 17:7.

Phil LaSpino








Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: inthenow on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 19:16:19
Rev 21:8 but the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

After the Great White Throne Judgment the unsaved are thrown into the lake of fire, this is the second death, not punishment forever.
Eternal punishment is not punishment forever but punishment from the Eternal - who is God, as I see it.

Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

But it looks as though satan's punishment is forever. I wonder if the fate of the fallen angels are mentioned somewhere?

I realise this is very short to affirm what I have said, but further info. may be coming from some.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Beta on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 01:50:37

Ezek.18v4; ....the soul that sins it shall die - and again
          v20; ...the soul that sins it shall die.

It would not be possible for a soul to live in eternal torment since it is ' mortal ' !!!
'immortal soul' is not a biblical concept.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: ObeyTheGospel on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 02:28:16
ObeyTheGospel,  "If the story Jesus told about the rich man and the poor man is not true, and just a parable, and you claim it is a parable, what moral or spiritual truth is it teaching. What exactly are you saying it symbolizes? and what is the lession it teaches if a parable?"

Also eternal means, perpetual, everlasting. Scriptures teach, that God is eternal.

Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God." 

The Holy Spirit is eternal, Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit,

Scriptures teach, Matt.19:29, Whoever gives up all they have and follows Jesus, He said, they "Shall inherit everlasting life."

For those who do as the rich man did to Lazaras, Jesus said, Matt.25:41, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Compare to,

Matt.25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal." Compare with,

Dan.12:2, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

In you believe in everlasting life, then you have to believe in everlasting punishment. Its in the same sentence, and the same word, in Matthew, and Daniel. So you have a Old and New Testament supporting the idea behind eternal, or everlasting life, verses, everlasting punishment.

Eternal: 166. Greek is, aionios. Perpetual, everlasting, eternal.
   a-1. Spoken chiefly of time future, of God, Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." 1 Tim.
6:16. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God." 
   a-2. Of the happiness of the righteous, Matt.19:29, 25:46, "Everlasting punishment." Mark 10:30, "Eternal life." John 3:15-16-36. Rom.2:7. 2 Cor.4:17. In some passages this, "May have life eternal, is equivalent to, John 3:15, coll. with ver.3-5. Matt.19:16. Acts 13:46.
   a-3. Of the punishment of the wicked, Matt.18:8, 25:41-46. Mark 3:29, "Eternal damnation." 2 Thes.1:9. Heb.6:2. Jude 7. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting," Dan.12:2.
   a-4. Genr. 2 Cor.4:18, 5:1. Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit, "Heb.13:20. 1 John 1:2. Rev.
14:6. Philem.15, as an adverb. "Forever," always. Sept. for Heb. Gen.9:16. 17:7.

Phil LaSpino










The parable of the rich man and Lazarus has a deep meaning. I have listened to different interpretations on what this parable means, but to take it as a literal event wouldn't make much sense for a variety of reasons: When were humans given immortal souls? Where did Adam and Eve go after they died? There is no mention of immortal souls anywhere in the Bible. You can't just take a single parable and interpret it as a literal real event.

When it comes to "everlasting" or "eternal" in the Bible you have to read it in its context. Sometimes the word "eternal" is to be taken literally, but many other times the word "eternal" or "everlasting" did not literally mean forever. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but they were turned to ashes. It just means that the results of the fire are eternal. Also when the Bible says "unquenchable fire," it only meant that nobody could put out the fire. The fire did not literally burn forever. The wicked will have eternal punishment i.e eternal death, not eternal life in hell.







Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: ObeyTheGospel on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 02:30:39
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends.  I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.

I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.


The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.

The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were  annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.

The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.



So it is you who now has the  correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures.  Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!

I'm sorry if this offends you. I thought as Christians we should be able to disagree in a friendly manner. It seems a lot of Christians get angry these days, especially when someone doesn't believe that a lost soul will be tortured for eternity. All I am doing is giving the other side of the story. I am showing that scripture can be distorted by people who do not dig below the surface. I don't know why you had to get sarcastic. Did I touch a nerve or something?

Well, when you started out with "the problem with Christians today is they take a verse....".  So, you are the only one who does? Accusing others from the outset that they don't? Maybe they do and perhaps don't see the particular verses in quite the same light as you do. I am all for friendly discussion, quote a verse, tell your opinion, but accusations right from the start?

In all fairness a lot of Christians do take verses out of context without digging below the surface. And even if I come across as a little offensive, shouldn't you have prayed for me instead of replying with sarcasm? I thought Christians are suppose to love each other?

You are correct, prayer would have been better (after a gentle admonition without  the sarcasm). I apologize for my poor response. And if you would pray for me it would be appreciated. Thanks, and may God bless you always!

I also apologize for being a little judgemental. May God bless you too.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 05:44:07
ObeyTheGospel,  "If the story Jesus told about the rich man and the poor man is not true, and just a parable, and you claim it is a parable, what moral or spiritual truth is it teaching. What exactly are you saying it symbolizes? and what is the lession it teaches if a parable?"

Also eternal means, perpetual, everlasting. Scriptures teach, that God is eternal.

Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God."  

The Holy Spirit is eternal, Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit,

Scriptures teach, Matt.19:29, Whoever gives up all they have and follows Jesus, He said, they "Shall inherit everlasting life."

For those who do as the rich man did to Lazaras, Jesus said, Matt.25:41, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Compare to,

Matt.25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal." Compare with,

Dan.12:2, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

In you believe in everlasting life, then you have to believe in everlasting punishment. Its in the same sentence, and the same word, in Matthew, and Daniel. So you have a Old and New Testament supporting the idea behind eternal, or everlasting life, verses, everlasting punishment.

Eternal: 166. Greek is, aionios. Perpetual, everlasting, eternal.
   a-1. Spoken chiefly of time future, of God, Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." 1 Tim.
6:16. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God."  
   a-2. Of the happiness of the righteous, Matt.19:29, 25:46, "Everlasting punishment." Mark 10:30, "Eternal life." John 3:15-16-36. Rom.2:7. 2 Cor.4:17. In some passages this, "May have life eternal, is equivalent to, John 3:15, coll. with ver.3-5. Matt.19:16. Acts 13:46.
   a-3. Of the punishment of the wicked, Matt.18:8, 25:41-46. Mark 3:29, "Eternal damnation." 2 Thes.1:9. Heb.6:2. Jude 7. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting," Dan.12:2.
   a-4. Genr. 2 Cor.4:18, 5:1. Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit, "Heb.13:20. 1 John 1:2. Rev.
14:6. Philem.15, as an adverb. "Forever," always. Sept. for Heb. Gen.9:16. 17:7.

Phil LaSpino











The parable of the rich man and Lazarus has a deep meaning. I have listened to different interpretations on what this parable means, but to take it as a literal event wouldn't make much sense for a variety of reasons: When were humans given immortal souls? Where did Adam and Eve go after they died? There is no mention of immortal souls anywhere in the Bible. You can't just take a single parable and interpret it as a literal real event.

When it comes to "everlasting" or "eternal" in the Bible you have to read it in its context. Sometimes the word "eternal" is to be taken literally, but many other times the word "eternal" or "everlasting" did not literally mean forever. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but they were turned to ashes. It just means that the results of the fire are eternal. Also when the Bible says "unquenchable fire," it only meant that nobody could put out the fire. The fire did not literally burn forever. The wicked will have eternal punishment i.e eternal death, not eternal life in hell.



Obeythegospel,

You have a like mind (in me) here in his thread  ::tippinghat::

The only way to truly expose the fraudulent teachings of demonic supernatural being's is to expound the passage to it’s
fullest, until there is no more room for such error.

Eventually, by doing so, you will leave the errorist's to the their mystic nonsensical ideas and you can watch them run very quickly from truth though we would not have it so. ::frown::

Here is an example of two "Christians" running from a Job study on Satan from which they still are yet to return. ::pondering::

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/non-traditional-theology/job-chastening-and-perfecting-a-son-of-god/75/?PHPSESSID=445c278993e3bf7e9ea20b7f3e375a72 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/non-traditional-theology/job-chastening-and-perfecting-a-son-of-god/75/?PHPSESSID=445c278993e3bf7e9ea20b7f3e375a72)

I boast in these victories as Jesus Christ who is the captain of our truth can illuminate their folly and replace it with a solid foundation of Bible truth.

Let’s begin by considering a breakup of the Luke 15 & 16  

15:1-2 Parables arose because of Jesus’ associations with publicans and sinners

15:28 Churlish eldest son refuses to feast with repentant brother

16:1 Unjust steward wastes his Lord’s goods

16:4-7 Unfaithfully writes down debts owed to his Lord

16:14 Parable applied to Pharisees as “lovers of money
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: cs80918 on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 11:59:39
Our goal as Christians should not be to defend the gospel of a denomination, but to seek the truth of God.


1 Corinthians 3:4
For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task.


I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.

So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.




OP-  I guess your main issue is you don't believe we go from mortality to immortality.




1 Corinthians 15:54

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Daniel 12:2

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

Ecclesiastes 12:7

and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it


Matthew 25:46

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into leternal life.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: inthenow on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 16:33:15
Eze_18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When one is saved through faith in Christ, that one is one with Him. Which one of you would have someone punished for eternity?

AN OPINION.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 17:06:35
Eze_18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When one is saved through faith in Christ, that one is one with Him. Which one of you would have someone punished for eternity?

AN OPINION.

Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".

If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.

Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: inthenow on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 17:54:39

Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".

If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Matthew 10:28 has soul as seperate from body.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Man can kill the body but not the soul, God can destroy both.
 

Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.
[/quote]
Soul = life, mind, and yes our emotions and nature is part of that I believe.

soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 18:04:16

Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".

If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Matthew 10:28 has soul as seperate from body.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Man can kill the body but not the soul, God can destroy both.
 

Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.

Soul = life, mind, and yes our emotions and nature is part of that I believe.

soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


You state unashamedly Platonic doctrine with origins in Egyptian mythology.

Quote
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Out of your own mouth you teach immortal Spirit beings are able to transgress Yahweh in Heaven.

Of course this means your reward, be it eternal, is tainted by flesh lusts that lead to sin!

Good luck teaching that error.

Insight

Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 18:09:12
Lets see if you can play dodge?

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The above quote is the Devine decree upon all sin...you must say yes!

If this be true your satan will die of his own accord!

Lets see how fast you can run from truth...

Shall we?

Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 18:20:19
You can always see platonic error a mile away, as it often only takes one powerful verse to bring the whole teaching undone.

Rom 6:23 just did this to your fallen angel theology and satanic worship doctrine.

You can thank me later ::tippinghat::

Insight
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 18:24:02
What no response?

Are you trying to reconcile fallen angel with Rom 6:23?

I am sitting here eager to hear your explanation.

Please don’t let me down...

Waiting...
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 18:53:29
Shush…all is quiet

Error is laid to rest but what of the state of the dead?

Maybe you would heed the Proverb in a twofold lesson… The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead. Prov  21:16

Many will stay there held by its strong grip.

Insight
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: YesImAFreshman on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 20:15:56
Hello Insight,

I just happened across this string, and am trying to grasp your viewpoint concerning body, soul, spirit, eternal life, judgement, etc. topics.  Would you be willing to summarize your biblical understanding of these things? 

If this is an inappropriate request, please accept my apologies-- I am new to this type of forum.

Thanks, Al
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 20:53:42
Hello Insight,

I just happened across this string, and am trying to grasp your viewpoint concerning body, soul, spirit, eternal life, judgement, etc. topics.  Would you be willing to summarize your biblical understanding of these things?  

If this is an inappropriate request, please accept my apologies-- I am new to this type of forum.

Thanks, Al

Hi Al,

It appears you may be rescued this thread as the others have moved on left in confusion as to their fallen angel theology.  These are they who are taught error from a child and never question their beliefs they are held under their deception that God has failed to control His Heavenly Realm.  

Put simply they do not understand angels…at all!

Do you actually believe that God allowed sin to enter Heaven? I am continually amazed at how many believers have been persuaded by this teaching? But most of all it saddens me that many do not understand sin.


That’s right, if you understood sin this post would not have been written. The origin of Sin will answer one question, but you will have many more at the end of this study.


I will stress that sin comes from inside us. It is our fault we sin - we inherited a nature which is prone to sin Romans 5:12-14. It is because we have a free will to choose between good and evil that we sin. Do you honestly believe the ministering spirits (angels) which bear His name and do His work have free will to choose evil? They dwell in light unapproachable, they are glorified beings who are pure and holy as He is holy.

No, long has the human race laid blame at the feet of a supernatural make believe devil, or in their case some presumed fallen angel. The very thought contradicts all scripture concerning God’s will being done in Heaven.

How could Jesus pray these words if an Angel fell?

Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6

So they say its God’s will for angels to sin in Heaven and that Jesus would have a fallable God whose will is not obeyed in heaven to come to earth?

How so – Sin in heaven to be brought to earth?

Christians in the main are thick and that is being nice! They don’t hear the Scriptures they wrest them with human imaginations rather than asking the right questions and receiving the right answers.  

Why would you aim for immortality if you could still sin? I hear you thinking "thats not right" Why would God reward those that diligently seek Him with eternal life, when we are no different to our current state?

What this means is the Scriptures you thought you understood have now become something else! There must be more!

Do you hope of a prospect of becoming an eternal sinner?????...yes, I know it just doesn’t sound right nor does it fit.

You need to remember "the wages of sin is death" (Rom.6:23)

When you labour at work...your wages is money.

When you sin your wages is death.

Sin leads to death.

If it is not our fault that we sin, but that of the devil, then a just God ought to punish the devil rather than us.

But the fact that we are judged for our own sins shows that we are responsible for our sins. The concept of the devil being a specific person outside of us, rather than the principle of sin within us is an attempt to move the responsibility for our sins away from ourselves. This is yet another example of men refusing to come to terms with what the Bible teaches about man's nature.

Our nature is fundamentally sinful…as it leads to death and the law has the dominion in our members!  

"There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him...For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders...pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within and defile the man" (Mk.7:15-23 Jesus Speaking).

The idea that there is something sinful outside of us which enters us and causes us to sin is incompatible with the plain teaching of Jesus here.  From within, out of the heart of man, come all these evil things. This is why, at the time of the flood, God considered that

"the imagination of man's heart (mind i.e carnal, animal) is evil from his youth" (Gen.8:21).

In other words people were constantly thinking of ways to be evil.

James 1:14 tells us how we are tempted: "Every man (it is the same process for each human being) is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust ("of his own evil desire", N.I.V.) and enticed". We are tempted by our own lusts, our own evil desires; not by anything outside of us. "From whence come wars and fighting’s among you?", James asks; "Come they not hence, even of your lusts?" (James 4:1).


Each of us has specific, personal temptations. They therefore have to be generated by our own evil desires, because they are personal to us. It has been truly said that we are our own worst enemy.


Paul laments: "In me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing...for the good that I would I do not...if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" (Rom.7:18-21). Now he does not blame his sinning on an external being called the devil. He located his own evil nature as the real source of sin: "It is not I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law (within me), that, when I would do good, evil is present with (i.e. within) me". So he says that the opposition to being spiritual comes from something that he calls "sin dwelling in me".


David, another undoubtedly a righteous man commented upon the constant sinfulness of his very nature: "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:5).


The Bible is very explicit about wicked nature of man. If this is understood there is no need to invent an imaginary person outside our human natures who is responsible for our sins.


Jer.17:9 says that the heart of man is so desperately wicked and deceitful that we cannot actually appreciate the gross extent of its sinfulness.  

Finally, show me where God informs us of a fallen angel.

Chapter, Book and verse.

1.   What caused the angel to fall
2.   Why wasn’t the sentence of death passed? Rom 6:23
3.   If so explain how God is unjust for not passing the same law that binds us to death.
4.   Show an understanding from Gen 1-3 of the fallen angel; immortality of the soul
 
That should be enough to keep you all busy running off you’re many books of knowledge.

Insight




Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: YesImAFreshman on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 21:38:13
Hello again Insight,

Thank you for your response, Al

Matthew, Chapter 4

4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
4:2 When he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was hungry afterward.
4:3 The tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"{Deuteronomy 8:3}
4:5 Then the devil took him into the holy city. He set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
4:6 and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, 'He will put his angels in charge of you.' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, so that you don't dash your foot against a stone.'"{Psalm 91:11-12}
4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test the Lord, your God.'"{Deuteronomy 6:16}
4:8 Again, the devil took him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory.
4:9 He said to him, "I will give you all of these things, if you will fall down and worship me."
4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Get behind me,{TR and NU read "Go away" instead of "Get behind me"} Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.'"{Deuteronomy 6:13}
4:11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and served him.

Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 21:41:10
Hello again Insight,

Thank you for your response, Al

Matthew, Chapter 4

4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
4:2 When he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was hungry afterward.
4:3 The tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"{Deuteronomy 8:3}
4:5 Then the devil took him into the holy city. He set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
4:6 and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, 'He will put his angels in charge of you.' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, so that you don't dash your foot against a stone.'"{Psalm 91:11-12}
4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test the Lord, your God.'"{Deuteronomy 6:16}
4:8 Again, the devil took him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory.
4:9 He said to him, "I will give you all of these things, if you will fall down and worship me."
4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Get behind me,{TR and NU read "Go away" instead of "Get behind me"} Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.'"{Deuteronomy 6:13}
4:11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and served him.



So what are the possibilities of the adversary (satan)?

1. A make believe supernatural being the like you would see in a Hollywood movie?

2. The High Priest of the Sanhedrin

3. An Angel

4. His own mind

Honestly which of these can you tell me you have explored before coming to option 1?

Be honest!
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: YesImAFreshman on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:10:10
Revelation 12:7-17

12:7 There was war in the sky. Michael and his angels made war on the dragon. The dragon and his angels made war.
12:8 They didn't prevail, neither was a place found for him any more in heaven.
12:9 The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
12:10 I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now is come the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb's blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life, even to death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil has gone down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a short time."
12:13 When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
12:14 Two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, so that she might be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 The serpent spewed water out of his mouth after the woman like a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.
12:16 The earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon spewed out of his mouth.
12:17 The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.
 


Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:12:55
Revelation 12:7-17

12:7 There was war in the sky. Michael and his angels made war on the dragon. The dragon and his angels made war.
12:8 They didn't prevail, neither was a place found for him any more in heaven.
12:9 The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
12:10 I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now is come the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb's blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life, even to death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil has gone down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a short time."
12:13 When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
12:14 Two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, so that she might be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 The serpent spewed water out of his mouth after the woman like a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.
12:16 The earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon spewed out of his mouth.
12:17 The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.
 




Couldn’t take me to Genesis?

Interesting?

Couldn’t answer my questions honestly re Matt 4.

Even more revealing!

Any babe can cut and paste scripture...

I guess thus far you are that babe?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:17:31
Revelation 12:7-17

12:7 There was war in the sky. Michael and his angels made war on the dragon. The dragon and his angels made war.
12:8 They didn't prevail, neither was a place found for him any more in heaven.
12:9 The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
12:10 I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now is come the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb's blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life, even to death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil has gone down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a short time."
12:13 When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
12:14 Two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, so that she might be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 The serpent spewed water out of his mouth after the woman like a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.
12:16 The earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon spewed out of his mouth.
12:17 The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.
 


Do you believe in dragons Al?

(http://www.google.com.au/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://the-fabulist.org/yarns/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/dragon-wiki.jpg&sa=X&ei=qbruTqXFOsaTiQf-kuGGBw&ved=0CA4Q8wc&usg=AFQjCNH__rHs-AgrztDEJNnmh9NzLgbPPw)

Like this one or different?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: YesImAFreshman on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:19:14
Genesis 3:1-6

3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any animal of the field which Yahweh God had made. He said to the woman, "Has God really said, 'You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?'"
3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat,
3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
3:4 The serpent said to the woman, "You won't surely die,
3:5 for God knows that in the day you eat it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit, and ate; and she gave some to her husband with her, and he ate.


Revelation 20:1-3

20:1 I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 He seized the dragon, the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole inhabited earth, and bound him for a thousand years,
20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were finished. After this, he must be freed for a short time.
 
 
 
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:21:09
Genesis 3:1-6

3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any animal of the field which Yahweh God had made.  He said to the woman, "Has God really said, 'You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?'"


Who made your demonic being?

No, surely not...
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:43:02
 ::shrug::

It appears Al has ceased from pasting.

Maybe his implication of the Father creating a demonic being has stopped him in his tracks?

We shall see?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: YesImAFreshman on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:45:13
Luke 10:8-11

10:8 Into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat the things that are set before you.
10:9 Heal the sick who are therein, and tell them, 'The Kingdom of God has come near to you.'
10:10 But into whatever city you enter, and they don't receive you, go out into its streets and say,
10:11 'Even the dust from your city that clings to us, we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the Kingdom of God has come near to you.'

I don't presume that God would need my wisdom to explain His.  Whatever it is that you are fighting against, my friend, may the Lord Jesus grant you His understanding and peace.

God bless you, Al
 


Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:52:51
Luke 10:8-11

10:8 Into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat the things that are set before you.
10:9 Heal the sick who are therein, and tell them, 'The Kingdom of God has come near to you.'
10:10 But into whatever city you enter, and they don't receive you, go out into its streets and say,
10:11 'Even the dust from your city that clings to us, we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the Kingdom of God has come near to you.'

I don't presume that God would need my wisdom to explain His.  Whatever it is that you are fighting against, my friend, may the Lord Jesus grant you His understanding and peace.

God bless you, Al
 

Al, Al, Al....

We have approx 18 people reading these posts and thus far we have you believing in dragons, and making God the creator and of demonic being and you persist with quoting passages of scripture that you cannot explain?

I could ask an infidel at work to copy and paste the same passages and you both would be none the wiser.

Go away and find what this meaneth...

These were more noble than YesImAFreshman, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

You have shown us your inablility to:

1. Recieve the Word
2. A readiness of mind
3. Searching the Scriptures

On all three counts your prayers and well wishes are meaningless until you return with this spirit...otherwise you a just another Christian who is without form and void.

I hope the hard reality will impress on you your need to respond with substance and not teachings of devils and demons.

Insight



 
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: inthenow on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:18:32

Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".

If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Matthew 10:28 has soul as seperate from body.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Man can kill the body but not the soul, God can destroy both.
 

Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.

Soul = life, mind, and yes our emotions and nature is part of that I believe.

soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


You state unashamedly Platonic doctrine with origins in Egyptian mythology.

Quote
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Out of your own mouth you teach immortal Spirit beings are able to transgress Yahweh in Heaven.

Of course this means your reward, be it eternal, is tainted by flesh lusts that lead to sin!

Good luck teaching that error.

Insight


There are many scriptures showing satan transgresses God in heaven.
Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:19:39

Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".

If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Matthew 10:28 has soul as seperate from body.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Man can kill the body but not the soul, God can destroy both.
 

Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.

Soul = life, mind, and yes our emotions and nature is part of that I believe.

soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


You state unashamedly Platonic doctrine with origins in Egyptian mythology.

Quote
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.

Out of your own mouth you teach immortal Spirit beings are able to transgress Yahweh in Heaven.

Of course this means your reward, be it eternal, is tainted by flesh lusts that lead to sin!

Good luck teaching that error.

Insight


There are many scriptures showing satan transgresses God in heaven.
Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

We are waiting for you to explain exactly what Rev 12:10 means?

Can you enter the Word or simply speak at it?

Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Sinead on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:21:31
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:23:48
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

Well lets say I was about to kill someone who hurt one of my family members and you stood in my way and rebuke my action.

You would be a Satan to me!

You can have a good Satan but you cannot have a good devil

Why is this so?

And provide a Bible passage to prove...



 
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:27:36
The meaning of satan (adversary) - the following are referred to as "satan" or "adversary":

God is a Satan in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1.
An obedient divine angel is a Satan in Num. 22:22.
Hadad the Edomite is a Satan in 1 Kings 11:14.
Peter is a Satan in Matt. 16:23.

Now you will not study these passages to see if this is so...do you know why?

Because your heart is set of error.

It’s the way you like it - its comfortable

Insight
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Sinead on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:28:54
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

Well lets say I was about to kill someone who hurt one of my family members and you stood in my way and rebuke my action.

You would be a Satan to me!

You can have a good Satan but you cannot have a good devil

Why is this so?

And provide a Bible passage to prove...



 

If this scenario happened why would I be a 'satan' to you? What do you mean? Wouldn't I actually be the 'good guy'?

Do you believe in a supernatural satan? That the cherub Lucifer who fell is now satan?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:30:46
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

Well lets say I was about to kill someone who hurt one of my family members and you stood in my way and rebuke my action.

You would be a Satan to me!

You can have a good Satan but you cannot have a good devil

Why is this so?

And provide a Bible passage to prove...



 

If this scenario happened why would I be a 'satan' to you? What do you mean? Wouldn't I actually be the 'good guy'?

Do you believe in a supernatural satan? That the cherub Lucifer who fell is now satan?

It is evident you do not understand the word Satan or its application in the Bible.

READ: The meaning of satan (adversary) - the following are referred to as "satan" or "adversary":

God is a Satan in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1.
An obedient divine angel is a Satan in Num. 22:22.
Hadad the Edomite is a Satan in 1 Kings 11:14.
Peter is a Satan in Matt. 16:23.

Now you will not study these passages to see if this is so...do you know why?

Now how can you be a good Satan?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Sinead on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:33:41
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

Well lets say I was about to kill someone who hurt one of my family members and you stood in my way and rebuke my action.

You would be a Satan to me!

You can have a good Satan but you cannot have a good devil

Why is this so?

And provide a Bible passage to prove...



 

If this scenario happened why would I be a 'satan' to you? What do you mean? Wouldn't I actually be the 'good guy'?

Do you believe in a supernatural satan? That the cherub Lucifer who fell is now satan?

It is evident you do not understand the word Satan or its application in the Bible.

READ: The meaning of satan (adversary) - the following are referred to as "satan" or "adversary":

God is a Satan in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1.
An obedient divine angel is a Satan in Num. 22:22.
Hadad the Edomite is a Satan in 1 Kings 11:14.
Peter is a Satan in Matt. 16:23.

Now you will not study these passages to see if this is so...do you know why?

Now how can you be a good Satan?

Well all names have a meaning. The name George means Farmer but many Georges are not farmers.
The word satan isn't a thing but rather just a name.

Also do you believe that that lucifer is now satan?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:35:37
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

Well lets say I was about to kill someone who hurt one of my family members and you stood in my way and rebuke my action.

You would be a Satan to me!

You can have a good Satan but you cannot have a good devil

Why is this so?

And provide a Bible passage to prove...



 

If this scenario happened why would I be a 'satan' to you? What do you mean? Wouldn't I actually be the 'good guy'?

Do you believe in a supernatural satan? That the cherub Lucifer who fell is now satan?

It is evident you do not understand the word Satan or its application in the Bible.

READ: The meaning of satan (adversary) - the following are referred to as "satan" or "adversary":

God is a Satan in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1.
An obedient divine angel is a Satan in Num. 22:22.
Hadad the Edomite is a Satan in 1 Kings 11:14.
Peter is a Satan in Matt. 16:23.

Now you will not study these passages to see if this is so...do you know why?

Now how can you be a good Satan?

Well all names have a meaning. The name George means Farmer but many Georges are not farmers.
The word satan isn't a thing but rather just a name.

Also do you believe that that lucifer is now satan?

You still fail to understand...

Was Peter a good satan (or adversary) to Christ or bad? Matt. 16:23.

Answer_____________
 

Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Sinead on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:36:09
My head hurts too much to read all the posts but just a quick question insight - do you believe in satan?

Well lets say I was about to kill someone who hurt one of my family members and you stood in my way and rebuke my action.

You would be a Satan to me!

You can have a good Satan but you cannot have a good devil

Why is this so?

And provide a Bible passage to prove...



 

If this scenario happened why would I be a 'satan' to you? What do you mean? Wouldn't I actually be the 'good guy'?

Do you believe in a supernatural satan? That the cherub Lucifer who fell is now satan?

It is evident you do not understand the word Satan or its application in the Bible.

READ: The meaning of satan (adversary) - the following are referred to as "satan" or "adversary":

God is a Satan in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1.
An obedient divine angel is a Satan in Num. 22:22.
Hadad the Edomite is a Satan in 1 Kings 11:14.
Peter is a Satan in Matt. 16:23.

Now you will not study these passages to see if this is so...do you know why?

Now how can you be a good Satan?

Well all names have a meaning. The name George means Farmer but many Georges are not farmers.
The word satan isn't a thing but rather just a name.

Also do you believe that that lucifer is now satan?

You still fail to understand...

Was Peter a good satan (or adversary) to Christ or bad? Matt. 16:23.

Answer_____________
 



And you still fail to answer direct questions.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:38:45
Was the obedient divine angel in Num. 22:22 a good Satan of bad Satan?

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary (Satan) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

Answer__________

Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Sinead on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:39:16
Was the obedient divine angel in Num. 22:22 a good Satan of bad Satan?

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary (Satan) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

Answer__________



I can see it is impossible to get anywhere with you. Good day.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:43:38
Was the obedient divine angel in Num. 22:22 a good Satan of bad Satan?

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary (Satan) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

Answer__________



I can see it is impossible to get anywhere with you. Good day.

I proved to those reading this you could not enter the Word of God...why is this so?

If you answered the Word with a NO Peter was not a good adversary becuase he was speaking the things of man and not of God.

Whereas the Lord standing in the way of Balaam was a good Satan (or adversary)

The problem you have created in this line of discussion is God or Yahweh is spoken here as being a Satan however you cannot reconcile this teaching because it falls outside of your preconceived understanding of the supernatural nonsense you cling onto.

Today has been an interesting day as you are the third person to walk into the night.

 ::frown::
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:46:04
I understand the frustration of the Master who taught daily to those who have no ears to hear.

The question Sinead wanted answered is whether I believe in a supernatural demonic being who rules in a place of eternal fire.

The answer is clearly no!
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: chosenone on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:51:16
Not what the Bible says though. Whether you yourself believe it or not doesnt matter, its what God says that matters.
Not nice to think that so many will be in hell for ever, but I have never seen anywhere in the Bible that says otherwise. 
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 23:54:58
Not what the Bible says though. Whether you yourself believe it or not doesnt matter, its what God says that matters.
Not nice to think that so many will be in hell for ever, but I have never seen anywhere in the Bible that says otherwise. 

I will reword you post for the sake of truth and then comment.

Quote

Not what the Bible says though. Whether you yourself believe it or not doesnt matter, its what God says that matters.


True

Quote

Not nice to think that so many will be in hell (Grave) for ever, but I have never seen anywhere in the Bible that says otherwise. 


Yes hell as you endeavour to imply the fantastical imaginations of fiery images has always been the quietness of the grave.

Your imagination is working overtime if you see anything else.

Insight



Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: inthenow on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 00:08:00
Insight:
We are waiting for you to explain exactly what Rev 12:10 means?

Can you enter the Word or simply speak at it?

The meaning of the part of Revelation 12:10 that is in discussion is that satan has always lied to God about the saints, and that is transgression to God who dosn't like lies, and satan is the father of lies, yes it's transgression toward God indeed.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: ObeyTheGospel on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 02:12:44
This is suppose to be a topic on whether hell is eternal. Please don't go off topic.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Beta on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 03:16:49
This is suppose to be a topic on whether hell is eternal. Please don't go off topic.

The problem arises when man applies 'only one meaning to hell' when in fact the bible speaks of 'different meanings'. Which 'hell' are we talking about ?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 04:17:03
Insight:
We are waiting for you to explain exactly what Rev 12:10 means?

Can you enter the Word or simply speak at it?

The meaning of the part of Revelation 12:10 that is in discussion is that satan has always lied to God about the saints, and that is transgression to God who dosn't like lies, and satan is the father of lies, yes it's transgression toward God indeed.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Revelation 12:10)

Rather than providing you with an understanding of Rev 12 which clearly would be lost on you why dont you prove to us that this satan is a fallen angel, supernatural and maybe you could show us the context of the passage?

Thanks

Insight
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Sinead on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 05:28:15
Insight:
We are waiting for you to explain exactly what Rev 12:10 means?

Can you enter the Word or simply speak at it?

The meaning of the part of Revelation 12:10 that is in discussion is that satan has always lied to God about the saints, and that is transgression to God who dosn't like lies, and satan is the father of lies, yes it's transgression toward God indeed.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Revelation 12:10)

Rather than providing you with an understanding of Rev 12 which clearly would be lost on you why dont you prove to us that this satan is a fallen angel, supernatural and maybe you could show us the context of the passage?

Thanks

Insight

What I'm curious about is why you ask these questions when you are already convinced about your beliefs?
Are you trying to sway us?
It hasn't worked yet and it won't work in the future either.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Insight on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 05:42:05
Insight:
We are waiting for you to explain exactly what Rev 12:10 means?

Can you enter the Word or simply speak at it?

The meaning of the part of Revelation 12:10 that is in discussion is that satan has always lied to God about the saints, and that is transgression to God who dosn't like lies, and satan is the father of lies, yes it's transgression toward God indeed.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Revelation 12:10)

Rather than providing you with an understanding of Rev 12 which clearly would be lost on you why dont you prove to us that this satan is a fallen angel, supernatural and maybe you could show us the context of the passage?

Thanks

Insight

What I'm curious about is why you ask these questions when you are already convinced about your beliefs?
Are you trying to sway us?
It hasn't worked yet and it won't work in the future either.

If you were teaching someone about the supernatural demonic being how would you from Rev 12:10?

Now I need not sway you in any direction only the Word, when understood, has this power. 

Let me explain what is happening here.

Over the years you have been convinced in this Satan and told to believe this or that, and so when one (like me) comes along asking you to actually explain the verse you find yourself in a state of difficulty because all of sudden it’s not as clear as you first thought.

I see this all the time with highly prophetical passages such as this chapter in Rev 12.

I will leave it here as I find no delight in making people uncomfortable only to show them the potential for a deeper meaning / understanding.

Insight
 
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: JohnDB on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 06:20:39
Ok guys. The subject is about the eternity of hell. Let's stay on that topic & leave other topics for another new thread. (Even if the subjects are related).
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Beta on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 08:10:56
I think we can safely say that ' firy.hell is eternal
since it puts an end to all life Mal.4v3.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: cs80918 on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 13:28:27
This questions will help understand this subect better.

What is the first death?  What takes place during the first death?

What is the second death?  What takes place during the first death?

What are all the defintions of death in the bible?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Beta on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 14:39:35
This questions will help understand this subect better.

What is the first death?  What takes place during the first death?

What is the second death?  What takes place during the first death?

What are all the defintions of death in the bible?

Are you helping to understand this suject by asking more questions ? ????
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: inthenow on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 18:48:05
Suffering forever verses forever gone.

A hole in the ground or a tomb or anywhere where a persons dead body is put, is hell - the grave, it may have other meanings too.

Psa_16:10  For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The psalmist here is speaking of Jesus.

The hell the OP is speaking of is the lake of fire where the unsaved go or are thrown. But is it eternal suffering there or eternal death.
I went with eternal death and gave a scripture or two showing that, but this thread has been derailed so much that I don't remember if scripture has been given implying otherwise, without reading through all the pages.

It is a good thread too. Can it continue under  sufferance, or is it gone forever.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: YesImAFreshman on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 22:17:44
Hello inthenow,

My apologies for following the errant thread of the subject matter earlier.

I returned to re-read your posts concerning the use of the words eternal, and the the immortality of the soul.  I found most helpful what C. S. Lewis wrote in 'Mere Christianity' about our mortal perception of time and eternity as opposed to that of the living and eternal God who created us.  If we (mortals) limit God and the corresponding spiritual realm the to the contraints of our view/experience of time, it becomes even more difficult to understand the truth of His Word concerning things eternal and immortal.  Some here have defined the soul so as to include or be equal to the 'body'. However, the soul and body would, by implication of scripture, be separate and distinguishable (Matt 10:28) entities -- the body (flesh) now corruptible since the fall of man, and the soul (essence) as a portion of that eternal 'image of God' into which we have been made (created).  God is not under the limits of this construct of time in which we live and He has so wonderfully created. As such, He is able to see 'the beginning from the end', already knowing those who are His sheep and the goats (Matt 25:32-33) and knowing those who will " go away into eternal punishment, ....." Matt. 26:46

(eternal -- Grk 'aionios' meaning 'perpetual, everlasting' -- Strongs concordance)

In which of Jesus' other parables does he use personal names, and describe details as He does in His story of Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, speaking to the rich man in Hades?  Is He not speaking directly to the 'scoffing' Pharisees?  Could it be that they might know the actual person of whom Jesus  spoke?  Would this not provide a stinging conviction among them of His power and authority in the spiritual realm? Did Jesus not raise a 'Lazarus' from the grave, restoring his soul to a body which had 'fallen asleep'? Could it have been a prophetical look forward for someone present? God only knows.  But it does appear to be more of an account than a parable, in my observation at least.

The eternal fire of Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude v.7  ...in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire) which you have described in the physical sense, did have a physical ending on Earth.  As evidenced by Jesus' proclaimation (Luke 10:12 and following) that it will be "more tolerable in that (judgement)day for Sodom, than for that city", implies that spiritual punishment is yet to come (and apparently in varying degrees).  When Jesus spoke these things, the fires of those cities had, of course, long been extinguished.  Reason would therefore dictate, by chronology and tense, that Jesus was pointing forward to this coming punishment, which cannot be interpreted as anything other than eternal, perpetual, everlasting.

Personally, I do not revel in the thought of eternal punishment -- what a fearful thing, to fall into the hand of our Holy God.  But that it, isn't it?  We fall into His hands -- He will judge our hearts (not the bodily ones ;-))  He is a Holy God, full of all power and authority, yet He cannot do everything -- He cannot lie, He cannot contradict himself -- He is Truth.  So when He says 'eternal' I have no other recourse than to believe His Word. His Holiness demands it to be so -- not because He wants it so, but because He loves us so much that He would let us choose.  In 2Peter 3:9, we understand that God is 'not willing' (Grk - 'me boulomenos', not wanting, not wishing) does not express a decree, as if all will be saved; instead that while He longs for to be saved, but knows that many will reject him. 

C. S. Lewis agains illustrates the concept well when he describes the parent who instructs the child on how to clean up his room after himself, explaining the necessity of the task, and the penalty for not following the parental will.  When the child fails to clean the room, it is not the will (want, desire) of the parent that the room remains untidy, but a result of the choice that the child has made (free will). The penalty will be paid.  In our case, our righteous and holy God determines the punishment, and is kind enough to tell us quite clearly, whether we choose to accept it or not.

God bless, and thank you for your indulgence, Al
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: inthenow on Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 17:26:41
Rev_20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Everyone dies once and is resurrected either to life or the second death, the second death for those who die twice appears to be everlasting.
This subject like so many can be seen otherwise. we will know it all, soon I hope.

1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Manna to you YesImAFreshman.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: ajb4 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 15:26:01
Rev. 20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.  This is the second death, the lake of fire.
        20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire

Perhaps another point of confusion is in our understanding of terms 'Hades' used in NT (Sheol in OT) as referring to 'Hell' and the Lake of Fire aka. 'Gehenna' (Tophet in OT).  Man's first death took place at Eden in the form of a separation from God's spirit.  But God's mercy gave a promise of redemption through the sacrifice of Jesus and return of the Holy Spirit to live within us. The second death takes place at the 'Gehenna', in the form of an eternal separation from the spirit

If we can understand the description of Hades in the events Jesus described concerning Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31, there are two spaces divided by a great gulf which cannot be crossed over.  On one side, the yet to be resurrected saints remain (evidenced by Abraham and Lazarus), and the other side, the condemned (evidenced by the rich man). It seems certain that the saints are in comfort, and the condemned are not.   Lazarus and the rich man could recognize each other, see, hear and speak, and so we surmise, were conscious in their disembodied state.  But Hades has been emptied of the saints which it held, considered to be the first fruits of the resurrection (Matt 27:53). Jesus has received the keys to death and Hades (Rev. 1:18), and brought the bodies of the saints to life by releasing their souls. The condemned remain there still -- but not eternally.

Eph. 4:8-10 Therefore he says, "When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men."Now this, "He ascended," what is it but that he also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?  He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

Hades is a temporal place, to be cast into Gehenna at the 'Great White Throne' judgement for it will have fulfilled it's purpose(Rev. 20:14).  The eternal Gehenna (Matt. 25:41) will hold the beast and the false prophet for the thousand year reign -- where Satan will join them.  (Rev. 20:10).  The first resurrection (Rev. 20:4-6) is of the saints, with their (glorified, immortal/incorruptible) bodies, reigning with Christ.  We then see that the 'dead' (condemned) are raised up from the sea, death and Hades (Rev. 20:13) suggesting the souls are returned to their bodies in some form to stand judgement -- for if their souls were in Hades, what would be given up from the sea?  (It would seem obvious, that condemned bodies will not be restored in the same manner as those of the believers.)

If death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, (Rev. 20:14), what death remains for the wicked who are cast into the lake of fire (Gehenna) following their judgement? Only the death of eternal separation from God, experienced by a soul without His Spirit. 

What soul, body or spirit has any understanding of punishment or loss if it ceases to exist?  What justice is recognized by the obliterated?

Do we readily accept eternal torment for Satan and his angels, but deny God would punish those who chose Satan over Him in like manner?

Are not men sons of Satan (John8:44) in their unregenerate state?

Are we not now those whom God gives the privilege to judge the angels? (1Cor. 6:3). 

The judgement of God is true and just, regardless of how we may want it to be.  We may find some comfort in the suggestion that punishment will having varying degrees (Luke 10:12). The truth is that we all deserve the judgement given to Satan and his angels.  But for the grace of God, through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, are we now preserved from eternal damnation.  It is and should be should be a stern warning and call to us all to proclaim the gospel at every opportunity. I will admit myself to be woefully remiss.  May you all be more diligent than I.

God bless you all -- let 'iron sharpen iron'

***To the south of Jerusalem was the 'Valley of Hinnom' where a high place called 'Tophet' once stood. It was at Tophet that parents made their children 'pass through the fire' kindled with brimstone, to honor the (false) god, 'Moloch'. This same place later became the area where the garbage from Jerusalem was taken to be burned.  The fires were kept burning continuously, while the unconsumed decaying matter bred worms that endured the perpetual heat.  This valley, originally called 'Ge-Hinnom' (later 'Gehenna') was alluded to, in nature, by Jesus (Mark 9:43-44) when He spoke of going 'to into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

(Paraphrased, The Spirit World, by Clarence Larkin)



Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: ObeyTheGospel on Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 08:00:53
Let's have a short study to see what death really means:

I hate to say this, but Christians who say that Jesus Christ came to earth to save us from eternal torment just don't know their Bibles very well. When Adam and Eve sinned the result was death to all living creatures. Nobody went to heaven and nobody went to hell. Death is the opposite of life. Jesus Christ came to defeat death and to grant us eternal life by dying for our sins. It's a shame that most Christians can't take death literally. They can't accept that the wicked will literally die in the second death, so they are forced to say that death really means eternal life in the lake of fire. But let's see what punishment Jesus had to suffer:

The wages of sin is death. Jesus suffered the penalty for our sins by dying on the cross. If the penalty for sin is eternal, conscious torment, how could Jesus have payed for our sins? Jesus suffered on the cross and then died. The Bible says that he tasted death for everyone:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone (Hebrews 2:9).

Jesus suffered the final result of sin, which is literal death. How can Christians argue that death really means eternal life in hell when Jesus payed for our sins by dying literally? When Adam sinned he eventually died, literally:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22).

There are only two choices--life or death. A person can be spiritually dead if they are not a believer, but the final result of their sin is literal death. This is why the lake of fire is called the second death (Revelation 21:8). Jesus suffered on the cross and died. Those who are cast into the lake of fire will suffer according to their sins and will die. There will be no resurrection from the second death. It is an eternal punishment. No hope of ever seeing life:

Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death (John 8:51).

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him (John 3:36).

Seems very clear to me. The lake of fire is the ultimate death where the wicked will burn up and die without any hope of seeing life ever again. This is the punishment that Jesus suffered. The lake of fire is not eternal life in conscious torment, no matter how much Christians want to believe otherwise. But let's consider another reason why eternal torment makes no sense:

God says, "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:5). God also says, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17). God also says, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).

God will one day have a perfect universe that is fully cleansed of sin. Before Satan fell from heaven sin did not exist. However, if Satan, his demons, and the unsaved are going to burn forever in agonizing torment, how can there ever be complete peace in the universe? If evil is not annihilated then the universe will never be fully cleansed of sin. In order for the universe to be how it was when it was perfect, evil would have to be annihilated once and for all. We are going to enter a perfect universe where there is no more sin or suffering. Everything will be holy. But here is something else to think about:

How do you imagine God will feel if the unsaved burn forever? Is God able to just switch off His emotions? How would God ever find peace in His heart if the unsaved are suffering throughout eternity? The Bible says that God makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Think how much pain God is in right now due to all the suffering that is taking place around the world. Do you think God would ever enjoy paradise in the new heavens if His disobedient children were being tormented throughout eternity? Makes no sense at all.

Stephen
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: inthenow on Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 23:59:10
I think we can safely say that ' firy.hell is eternal
since it puts an end to all life Mal.4v3.
???

Mal 4:3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

There is never an end to life.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Beta on Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 00:30:06
I think we can safely say that ' firy.hell is eternal
since it puts an end to all life Mal.4v3.
???

Mal 4:3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

There is never an end to life.

All depends 'whose life' we are talking about !
Only God has 'eternal life and those to whom he gives it.
 The natural man only has 'temporary life that can be extinguished , so
there is an end to life for some.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: inthenow on Fri Dec 23, 2011 - 17:32:06
That's diffrent to what you said.

Quote
I think we can safely say that ' firy.hell is eternal
since it puts an end to all life
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Beta on Sat Dec 24, 2011 - 04:43:42
That's diffrent to what you said.

Quote
I think we can safely say that ' firy.hell is eternal
since it puts an end to all life

OK friend , I could have been more precise !

But it seemed obvious to me that the Eternal God would be excluded since HE gives life in whatever form it is to be experienced...and without HIM there is no life.

But we see 'life in man, animals, plants, angels and even the devil.
None of these have life eternal and can be 'snuffed out. God grants whatever 'time-span he deems necessary....but sooner or later could end.
Obviously the fiery hell is the end for those cast into it ? ? ?
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: inthenow on Sat Dec 24, 2011 - 16:34:42
That's diffrent to what you said.

Quote
I think we can safely say that ' firy.hell is eternal
since it puts an end to all life

OK friend , I could have been more precise !

But it seemed obvious to me that the Eternal God would be excluded since HE gives life in whatever form it is to be experienced...and without HIM there is no life.

But we see 'life in man, animals, plants, angels and even the devil.
None of these have life eternal and can be 'snuffed out. God grants whatever 'time-span he deems necessary....but sooner or later could end.
Obviously the fiery hell is the end for those cast into it ? ? ?
I believe so to, some believe it's suffering forever, but theres nearly always diffrent views on diffrent topics.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: ajb4 on Sun Dec 25, 2011 - 00:26:08
Hi Stephen,

Wonderful words of hope -- thank you for your responses.

I wondered if you might explain a couple of verses that I am personally having trouble resolving with your understanding of eternal torment / punishment.

You stated:

'Christians want to believe otherwise. But let's consider another reason why eternal torment makes no sense:

God says, "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:5). God also says, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17). God also says, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).'

I notice the scripture does not say He will be rid of the lake of fire, only that He will create a new heavens and new earth, and that the former things shall not be 'remembered or come to mind'.  Who shall not remember the old things -- the forgiven, or God?  Does God forget the trespasses of the wicked as He does the saved?

Also (in addressing His church) that their pain, death, suffering shall be removed, for those things have passed away (from them). Whose pain and suffering is removed -- that of the forgiven, of the wicked, or of God?  Does not Jesus yet bear the scars of His crucifixion on His glorified body?

Rev. 20:10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev. 20:14 Death and Hades{or, Hell} were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev. 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers,{The word for "sorcerers" here also includes users of potions and drugs.} idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Rev. 21:27 There will in no way enter into it (the holy city) anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev. 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
        14:11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

I know you think that Christians are in error for believing in eternal torment and have difficulty accepting literal death.  The truth is that there are a great number of very competent bible scholars that do not hold your point of view. 

The Matthew Henry commentary on Matt. 25:41-46 states:

"if they (the condemned) must depart, and depart with a curse, may they not go into some place of ease and rest? Will it not be misery enough?  No, there is a punishment of sense as well as loss;  they must depart into fire, into torment as grievous as that of fire is to the body, and much more. this fire is the wrath of the eternal God fastening upon the guilty souls and consciences of sinners that have made themselves fuel for it.  Our God is a consuming fire, and sinners fall immediately into His hands, (Hebrews 10:31, Romans 2:8,9).  If into a fire, may it not be some light or gentle fire?  No, it is a prepared fire; it is a torment ordained of old (Isaiah 30:33) ...In the vessels of wrath He makes His power known; it is a destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power....If into fire, prepared fire, O let it be of short continuance, let them but pass through the fire; No, the fire of God's wrath will be an everlasting fire; a fire that, fastening and preying upon immortal souls, can never go out for want of fuel; and being kindled and burning by the wrath of an immortal God, can never go out,....and the streams of mercy and grace being for ever excluded, there is nothing to extinguish it....If they must be doomed to such a state of endless misery, yet may they have some good company there? No, none but the devil and his angels, their sworn enemies, that helped to bring them to this misery, and will triumph over them in it.  They served the devil while they lived and therefore are justly sentenced to be where he is, as those who served Christ, are taken to be with Him where He is....  The fire is said to be prepared, not primarily for the wicked, as the kingdom is prepared for the righteous; but it was originally prepared for the devil and his angels. If sinners make themselves associates with Satan by indulging their lusts, they may thank themselves if they become sharers in that misery prepared for him (Satan) and his associates.  Calvin notes upon this, that therefore the torment of the damned is said to be prepared for the devil and his angels, to cut off all hope of escaping it; the devil and his angels are already made prisoners in the pit, and can the worms of the earth think to escape?

Walvoord  and Zuck Bible Knowledge Commentary (same verses) states ..

"They will be removed from the earth and cast into 'eternal fire' to undergo eternal punishment.  With all wickedness removed in the Second Advent, the kingdom will begin on earth with only saved individuals in physical bodies constituting the earthly kingdom as King's subjects."

And on Rev. 14:11 says:  "The doctrine of eternal punishment, while unpopular with liberal scholars and difficult to accept, is nevertheless clearly taught in the Bible.  Jesus and the Apostle John say more on this subject than does all the rest of the Bible."

The differing viewpoints perhaps come from a different understanding of who/what is being addressed in certain verses, the spiritual nature of death, and the utter holiness and justice of God. It is my understanding that the eternal God is concerned with the eternal nature of our lives, first and foremost.  Our physical / carnal bodies are but temporary vessels, bound for corruption, yet to be remade incorruptible (for the saved) to participate in the kingdom of God.  God does not need man, nor the love of man, for He was complete without mankind and would remain so if He had allowed all to perish.  That is the wonder of His love, mercy and sacrifice.  But He is Holy, and we are not.  He is a God of wrath as well as a God of love.  We cannot fathom, nor understand, nor judge His 'feelings', as His ways and thoughts are as high above ours as the heavens above the earth. 

When Christ cried out on the cross, "Why have you forsaken me?" was it the physical death, or the separation of His spirit from communion with the Father that He lamented?  Though He did die physically, what fear or distress would He, who had raised the dead Himself and foreknew His physical resurrection, dread? In my understanding, it was that spiritual separation from the Father that led Jesus to lament.  It was THAT death which He tasted for us all, that held eternal significance.  It is THAT death which we as sinners have had in Adam. And, if we are without His grace, we will experience it again at the lake of fire. The second death -- a death that is never finished.  It is we who are concerned with the carnal, temporal and perishable things, having eyes that do not see, and ears that do not hear.

We are made in His image. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  We are soul, body and spirit. That which is eternal is our eternal; that which is mortal and remade, has provided the way for our remaking, and that which speaks to us the things of the kingdom, communes us with His life-giving presence.

Will we then, make God in our image? Do we imagination to judge His judgement, and the deny His righteous punishment of those He called earnestly to save, but who rejected Him for the beast?  If He makes them ashes under His feet, as they burn for eternity, is it not His justice that is served, by rewarding the unrepentant with that which they have chosen?  He will not allow them mercy, for they chose none.  He will not care for them below, as they cared for Satan above Him.  God will remove His redeemed from knowledge, concern and care for the wicked, for it is the eternal smoke of their torment that rises up before Him for ever and ever. He will not forget their sins, for that grace belongs to His children alone.

I admit, it is a most unpleasant consideration, but difficult to dogmatically deny by the scriptures.  It strikes fear into my soul as I study to see if it is so. Let's both pray and make our purpose more sure to share the gospel of truth as often as we are given opportunity, so that we do not see those we have known fall into any other fate than that which we claim in Christ.

My apologies for the length of the post.  God bless you brother.

 
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: freeman4 on Mon Jan 09, 2012 - 17:30:31
Greetings:

  Eze 28:18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.[/u] 


 Eze 28:19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And [shall be] no more forever." ' 

Please notice that this was Satan to whom God was talking. And God told him that he would be destroyed in fire and turned to ashes. verse 18:

verse 19: states that he, satan, would be no mre, dead forever.

freeman4:
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Beta on Tue Jan 10, 2012 - 14:50:11
Greetings:

  Eze 28:18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.[/u] 


 Eze 28:19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And [shall be] no more forever." ' 

Please notice that this was Satan to whom God was talking. And God told him that he would be destroyed in fire and turned to ashes. verse 18:

verse 19: states that he, satan, would be no mre, dead forever.

freeman4:

Yes , for a long time I used to think satan being spirit would exist for ever...but once we find the right scripture we know that will not be so.

satan will cease to be...because ONLY GOD's OWN HOLY SPIRIT IS ETERNAL...
no other.  ::amen!::
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: ajb4 on Sun Jan 15, 2012 - 22:26:07
Hello again Beta and freeman4,

Wondered if one of you might explain Rev. 20:10 in light of your view of Eze.28:

Eze. 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (KJV)

Rev. 20:10 The devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. (KJV)

It seems to me that the Ezekiel passage is talking about a destruction of the physical flesh, as described in Rev. 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This would most certainly explain the (fleshly) 'ashes', but the souls/spirits of these beings would remain in eternal torment.

In keeping with the comparison of 'scripture against scripture' to discover it's meaning, this seems to resolve what seems an apparent contradiction according to your stated viewpoint. Of course, this would mean God created some part of our being to be eternal ;-)

God bless you both.

Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Rudy2D on Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 08:26:14
In you believe in everlasting life, then you have to believe in everlasting punishment. Its in the same sentence, and the same word, in Matthew, and Daniel. So you have a Old and New Testament supporting the idea behind eternal, or everlasting life, verses, everlasting punishment.

Annihilation is indeed everlasting punishment; and everlasting life is the gracious gift of God to the redeemed.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: DaveW on Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 09:26:59
Annihilation is indeed everlasting punishment;

Not really. 
The punishment is by definition over and done when the person being punished is annihilated.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Rudy2D on Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 10:08:50
Annihilation is indeed everlasting punishment;

Not really. 
The punishment is by definition over and done when the person being punished is annihilated.

Draw it with Venn diagrams; if annihilation is the punishment and annihilation is eternal--the punishment is eternal.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: DaveW on Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 10:24:46
Draw it with Venn diagrams; if annihilation is the punishment and annihilation is eternal--the punishment is eternal.

Venn diagrams?  Really?

This is NOT a thing to be scientifically analyzed.  That whole process is from Greek paganism (via Aristotle) and has NO PLACE in biblical theology. Stop thinking like a 21st century westerner and start thinking like a first century Jew.

Punishment existed only as long as the recipient was receiving it.  If there is no recipient, the punishment ends. 
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Rudy2D on Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 10:53:21
Draw it with Venn diagrams; if annihilation is the punishment and annihilation is eternal--the punishment is eternal.

Venn diagrams?  Really?

This is NOT a thing to be scientifically analyzed.  That whole process is from Greek paganism (via Aristotle) and has NO PLACE in biblical theology. Stop thinking like a 21st century westerner and start thinking like a first century Jew.

Punishment existed only as long as the recipient was receiving it.  If there is no recipient, the punishment ends.

I used Venn diagrams because they are valid, whether you are playing semantic games or are just incredibly lacking in knowledge.  And "punishment" is only one of many various words used to translate the Greek original.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: DaveW on Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 12:07:02
No semantic games.  Neither would I be described as "incredibly lacking in knowledge."

I have preached in churches. Rabbis have asked me to teach in their synagogues. (I will be again this Sabbath) And I was a mechanical design engineer for 20 years.

One of the things I have learned in my 50+ years of being a New Covenant believer is that looking at scriptural text from a 20th-21st century western mindset can lead anyone to false conclusions. 

The ONLY way to understand what the original authors were trying to say is by adopting a first century Jewish (both at home and Greek diaspora) view and mindset.

Their world view was different. Even the logic system is different. (Hebrew Block Logic, aka Adductive logic) Induction and deduction are of limited use. Abstraction is absolutely out. Hebrew logic is entirely relational, and sometimes circular.  It can handle apparent contradictions as long as they are in differing blocks.

That kind of renders a Venn diagram useless.

Since this is RELATIONAL - punishment cannot happen if there is no recipient.
Punishment without a recipient is way too abstract for Hebraic thought.
So if the recipient is gone - so is the punishment.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Rudy2D on Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 13:18:47
So logic ceases to be logic--or doesn't apply--when used outside of the logicians milieu?
That is preposterous.

And I didn't ask for--nor am I impressed by--your resume.  There are plenty of pulpits occupied by those who have no business there. 
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: DaveW on Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 13:39:42
So logic ceases to be logic--or doesn't apply--when used outside of the logicians milieu?
That is preposterous.

Fine.  Prove to me that what you call logic (invented by someone who bowed down to zeus and hera and apollo) is something we should be using to analyze the words of the God of Abraham Isaac and Israel.

And show me how that Aristotleian logic is used to prove that Paul did not preach abandoning Moses to diaspora Jews (Acts 21.21-26)
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Rudy2D on Mon Jun 24, 2013 - 16:29:17
So logic ceases to be logic--or doesn't apply--when used outside of the logicians milieu?
That is preposterous.

Fine.  Prove to me that what you call logic (invented by someone who bowed down to zeus and hera and apollo) is something we should be using to analyze the words of the God of Abraham Isaac and Israel.

God is the Father of logic:  "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: . .  . (Is. 1:18a)


And show me how that Aristotleian logic is used to prove that Paul did not preach abandoning Moses to diaspora Jews (Acts 21.21-26)

I have no interest in chasing your bogus straw men.  And you previously said

One of the things I have learned in my 50+ years of being a New Covenant believer is that looking at scriptural text from a 20th-21st century western mindset can lead anyone to false conclusions. 

The ONLY way to understand what the original authors were trying to say is by adopting a first century Jewish (both at home and Greek diaspora) view and mindset.

All well and good, as applies to hermeneutics, exegesis and the historicity of Jesus; but it has no application to logic per se
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: DaveW on Wed Jun 26, 2013 - 08:58:46
Quote
All well and good, as applies to hermeneutics, exegesis and the historicity of Jesus; but it has no application to logic per se. 

Actually it does.  There are many times in scripture that there are so-called "paradoxes." Things that according to our logic cannot be possibly both true but they are.

When you start to understand their logic system you see how that can be.

Take Jesus for example.  He healed a guy and then told him to carry his bed on the sabbath.  Carrying the bed was explicitly forbidden in the OT. (a guy got killed for carrying sticks) Healing may have broken the sabbath as well.  (at least Jesus never argued that it did NOT break sabbath OR that He Himself superseded the sabbath) Telling someone to break a scriptural command was in itself a transgression of the Law.

IT is sin to heal, to carry, and to instruct someone to violate a scriptural command, HOW did He logicly still remain sinless?  Remember Paul says He was born "under the Law." That means if He broke it at any point He invalidated his claims to Messiahship and his ability to be our sinless sacrifice for sin.

It is not a mystery or a paradox or Him setting aside the Law. Hebraic logic proved He and his followers were blameless in their violations. Even to the Pharisees who opposed him.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Rudy2D on Wed Jun 26, 2013 - 09:10:06
You've proven nothing.  Logic is logic--whether Greek, Jewish, Hindi or Zoroastrian.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: DaveW on Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 06:47:06
You've proven nothing.  Logic is logic--whether Greek, Jewish, Hindi or Zoroastrian.

Do you have chapter and verse on that?

If not .....
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Rudy2D on Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 07:34:07
You've proven nothing.  Logic is logic--whether Greek, Jewish, Hindi or Zoroastrian.

Do you have chapter and verse on that?

If not .....

Is. 1:18: και δευτε και διελεγχθωμεν λεγει κυριος και εαν ωσιν αι αμαρτιαι υμων ως φοινικουν ως χιονα λευκανω εαν δε ωσιν ως κοκκινον ως εριον λευκανω

"So come and let us be logical, says the Lord:  although your sins are like scarlet, they shall be snow white; though they are red like crimson, they shall become white like wool."
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: DaveW on Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 08:00:22
 WHAT? Isaiah is in HEBREW, NOT GREEK!

Isa 1:18: 
לְכוּ־נָא וְנִוָּֽכְחָה יֹאמַר יְהוָה אִם־יִֽהְיוּ חֲטָאֵיכֶם כַּשָּׁנִים כַּשֶּׁלֶג יַלְבִּינוּ אִם־יַאְדִּימוּ כַתֹּולָע כַּצֶּמֶר יִהְיֽוּ׃

yakach (Strongs H3198) means  reason together, prove, decide, judge, rebuke, reprove, correct

"Be logical" is NOT one of the definitions.

Edited to add:

Even if it did mean "be logical," it does NOT say which logic framework is to be used.  And I have already told you the logic framework of scripture is DIFFERENT than we understand.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Rudy2D on Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 12:34:37
WHAT? Isaiah is in HEBREW, NOT GREEK!

Isa 1:18: 
לְכוּ־נָא וְנִוָּֽכְחָה יֹאמַר יְהוָה אִם־יִֽהְיוּ חֲטָאֵיכֶם כַּשָּׁנִים כַּשֶּׁלֶג יַלְבִּינוּ אִם־יַאְדִּימוּ כַתֹּולָע כַּצֶּמֶר יִהְיֽוּ׃

yakach (Strongs H3198) means  reason together, prove, decide, judge, rebuke, reprove, correct

"Be logical" is NOT one of the definitions.

Edited to add:

Even if it did mean "be logical," it does NOT say which logic framework is to be used.  And I have already told you the logic framework of scripture is DIFFERENT than we understand.

The Septuagint --written by greater scholars than you--is what I quoted--and it can be translated "be logical;" and I have already told you that I don't hold with your opinion regarding logic and scripture:

 
One of the things I have learned in my 50+ years of being a New Covenant believer is that looking at scriptural text from a 20th-21st century western mindset can lead anyone to false conclusions. 

The ONLY way to understand what the original authors were trying to say is by adopting a first century Jewish (both at home and Greek diaspora) view and mindset.

All well and good, as applies to hermeneutics, exegesis and the historicity of Jesus; but it has no application to logic per se.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: DaveW on Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 13:03:16
Quote
The Septuagint --written by greater scholars than you--is what I quoted--and it can be translated "be logical;
A translation of a translation.  Great.  That means you have twice as much chance for error in the outcome.

Hebrew => Greek LXX => English.

Why not skip the middle step and just go with the Hebrew?

[and yes - I did understand you were using the LXX]
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Rudy2D on Thu Jun 27, 2013 - 13:27:23
A translation of a translation.  Great.  That means you have twice as much chance for error in the outcome.

Hebrew => Greek LXX => English.

Why not skip the middle step and just go with the Hebrew?


I'm much more proficient in Classical Greek.  The Septuagint is generally held to be as reliable as the Hebrew, and was much more widely quoted by the New Testament authors than was the Hebrew Masoretic Text:

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/in-which-passages-does-jesus-quote-the-septuagint-and-where-does-the-new-testament-al (http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/in-which-passages-does-jesus-quote-the-septuagint-and-where-does-the-new-testament-al)

I could dig up other references if required.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: DaveW on Fri Jun 28, 2013 - 05:29:33
But it is still a translation of a translation. 

The reason the LXX gets quoted so much in the NT is that when EITHER the Aramaic conversations were translated the authors used the existing Greek translation (rather than re-translating) or they were quoting from a now-lost Hebrew text called the Proto-Septuagint and translating it afresh came out the same. We do have a partial of the prophets including much of Isaiah in the dead sea scrolls.   It shows that the Masoretic is pretty close.

So to do the kind of word parsing you are doing; it is always best to go to the original.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Rudy2D on Fri Jun 28, 2013 - 15:13:06
But it is still a translation of a translation. 

The reason the LXX gets quoted so much in the NT is that when EITHER the Aramaic conversations were translated the authors used the existing Greek translation (rather than re-translating) or they were quoting from a now-lost Hebrew text called the Proto-Septuagint and translating it afresh came out the same. We do have a partial of the prophets including much of Isaiah in the dead sea scrolls.   It shows that the Masoretic is pretty close.

So to do the kind of word parsing you are doing; it is always best to go to the original.

If the LXX was good enough for the God-inspired writers of the NT--it's good enough for me.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: willieH on Mon Aug 26, 2013 - 17:00:55
Based on a few misunderstandings of scripture, the majority of Christians believe that lost souls are going to burn forever in a pit of burning sulphur without any hope of rest or peace. This teaching has even caused many Christian to live in fear in case they end up in hell fire. But is this what the Bible really teaches.

God bless


First...   Actually the teaching of HELL is a FALLACY to begin with... matter of fact... the MAJORITY of English translations does not even use this term even ONCE!


Second... The teaching of HELL (in any duration) is COMPLETELY contrary to the SUCCESSFUL ACCOMPLISHMENT -- Isaiah 55:11 -- of the stated MISSION of JESUS CHRIST... to SAVE the WORLD -- Luke 19:10 -- 1 John 4:14 -- John 1:29 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- 1 Tim 4:9-11 -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- 2 Pet 3:9


Third...  The use of the word ETERNAL (forever, or everlasting), cannot be validly used by FINITE human beings which do not have comprehension of its parameters which INCLUDE -- WITHOUT BEGINNING.   


Until someone/anyone can explain how something (including GOD), can BE - WITHOUT BEGINNING - and convey exactly "how that works",  ...then he/she is employing a term that he/she is unable to DEFINE, and thereby INVALIDATES any usage of it accordingly.   Especially when this term is falsely employed by attempting to attach that term unto another FINITE human being. 


IOW -- unto the users of this term... I challenge you to CLEARLY explain the UNBEGINNINGNESS of YHVH God.  How is it that HE has NO BEGINNING?  And in your explanation, please include what that "UNBEGINNING", entails.


Fourth...  The FALSE proposal that YHVH GOD, who CLEARLY states that He not only LOVES the WORLD (unchangingly and eternally - Mal 3:4 ) but "SO" LOVES the WORLD...  shall bring UNENDING / UNBEGINNING harm unto those whom He "SO LOVES", is a COMPLETELY  contradictory proposal... 


The MISSION of CHRIST was to SAVE the WORLD... any proposal of HELL or ANNHILATION, stands in DIRECT opposition to that MISSION and in its UNSPIRITUAL AUDACITY, ...proposes the MISSION to be a FAILURE.   ::frown::  Which is, according to SCRIPTURE not possible -- Isaiah 55:11


Unfortunately modern Christian TRADITION -- Mark 7:7-9 -- has falsely established these AWFUL teachings in the stead of the GOOD NEWS (Euaggelizo -- #G2097) which CHRIST instructed them to bring to the WORLD -- Luke 2:10 -- Mark 16:15 -- Matt 28:19-20 (that GOD SO LOVES)...  is the ultimate tragedy befalling MOST of those (of modern Christianity) who claim to be COME in the name of JESUS CHRIST -- Matt 7:22-23  ::deepsleep::


I will be happy to have a discussion with those Christians who hold to this view and show them how they have misunderstood the scriptures. I'm always open for a friendly discussion. Jesus said "Come, let us reason together."


Love that verse -- Isaiah 1:18 --  But its a shame that this post proposes fallacy, not REASON.


What REASON is found in either of the proposals of HELL or ANNHILATION?    Where is ANY attribute of GOD found in these two?  What LOVE is seen in these?  PEACE?   How can His MERCY last forever -- Psalm 136 (entire chapter) -- when He is busily tormenting men in HELL?  Or where might that MERCY be found, amidst His ANNHILATION of them?


The TRUTH is that neither of these unfortunate fallacies are actually teachings of the WORD


Not only is great misunderstanding the basis of them both, but within their proposals, they certainly propose INSULT to the MISSION of CHRIST (which YHVH God ORDAINED), pertaining to said mission's SUCCESSFUL accomplishment!


God concluded us all IN UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- to live a "vapor" of a life -- James 4:14 -- and then on an "ETERNAL" basis, He "never gets over His anger"?   That makes REASONABLE sense to you?


I see it as totally UNREASONABLE and contrary to the Scriptures which CLEARLY NOTE that EVERYTHING unto which HIS WORD is applied, shall BE ACCOMPLISHED -- Isaiah 55:11 -- and that the WRATH of GOD is momentary, not ETERNAL -- Isaiah 54:7-8 -- Isaiah 26:20


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Helen on Mon Aug 26, 2013 - 17:11:02
Well, I guess you think Jesus didn't know what he was talking about in Matthew 25, when Jesus closes the parable of the sheep and the goats, saying, 'Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.'
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: willieH on Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 15:37:53
Well, I guess you think Jesus didn't know what he was talking about in Matthew 25, when Jesus closes the parable of the sheep and the goats, saying, 'Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.'


Hi Helen... I appreciate, and give thanks unto our Father YHVH God, ...for the opportunity to witness to you...  ::bowing:: ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th   ::groupprayer::


It is the WORKS or Humanity, which are tried Helen.   That "trial" is noted here:  -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- The sheep and goats are metaphors for the works of CHRIST in us (sheep hear and follow), and the works of OURS (goats do not hear, nor follow) in us -- all have "sheep" [CHRIST working] and "goats" [sin working]  within.   


ALL WORKS (good or evil) are placed upon the ONLY FOUNDATION that exists -- 1 Cor 3:11 --  In that placing, those works either ABIDE (which were done BY CHRIST in us -- Gal 2:20) or they are BURNED up (swallowed by the passing moments of the FIRE of time).


THIS life IS the Lake of Fire into which are cast, ALL who have at any moment violated ANY of these: -- Rev 21:8


This "FIRE" is illustrated in the "Burning Bush" which is AMIDST fire, but APPEARS unaffected by it -- Ex 3:2 -- in which the FIRE (of time which we are amidst, as was the "bush"),  finds destruction of the works which are according to the LAWS of HOLINESS, unacceptable within the LIVING EXPERIENCE.   


Though destruction occurs within this process to some degree in ALL (and almost totally in SOME),  ...the FIRE saves, albeit with the accompanying LOSSES of those moments in which RIGHTEOUSNESS did not appear -- 1 Cor 3:15


It appears that you haven't yet discovered that JESUS is to be BEHELD, as the "LAMB of God that TAKETH AWAY the SIN of the WORLD" -- John 1:9 -- Until YOU or any other behold HIM (in this manner) as WHO HE IS (the Lamb TAKING AWAY the sin of the WORLD), then you shall continue to have the VEIL of TRADITION -- Mark 7:7-9 -- upon your vision...  As well, ...within that VEILING shall you also fail to SEE that His MISSION was to SAVE that which was LOST -- Luke 19:10 -- ALL men/women ...are "LOST".


JESUS in Scripture, is indicated as the WORD of YHVH -- Heb 1:3 -- 13:8 -- John 1:1 -- which was SENT to SAVE the WORLD -- 1 John 4:14 -- He did just that, as Scripture indicates -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- During which He DID NOTHING -- John 5:19 -- as well as SAID NOTHING -- John 12:49 --  of Himself, rather He DID and SAID ...as DOES YHVH God


Scripture also CLEARLY attests,  ...that whatsoever YHVH God SENDS His WORD to accomplish (such as SAVING the WORLD) SHALL be ACCOMPLISHED! -- Isaiah 55:11 -- That MEN either do not or will not SEE (or "believe") this, does not preclude nor negate its TRUTH.


2 Pet 3:9 -- IS the CLEAR statement of INTENT concerning YHVH GOD's will in this matter ("not willing" = BOULEMA - #1014 = Resolve, intent)


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH 
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Helen on Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 15:45:53
"they" is not works -- it refers to living things -- the sheep and the goats.  Nor is this the lake of fire.  You appear to have invented your own theology here.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: chosenone on Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 15:59:43
Well, I guess you think Jesus didn't know what he was talking about in Matthew 25, when Jesus closes the parable of the sheep and the goats, saying, 'Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.'
 

Yes, no mistake there. Jesus own words.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: willieH on Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 21:06:13
"they" is not works -- it refers to living things -- the sheep and the goats.  Nor is this the lake of fire.  You appear to have invented your own theology here.

Though there is such a LARGE picture (which includes the "Lake of Fire") that can be shown you, however, ...there is not much point in going to such detail which is time consuming (I'm in chemotherapy so, I shall not waste moments which I have remaining to speak unto ears which are unavailable) as yours (at least up to now), are unreceptive to what I have to say... but I will address the smaller issue (the "Sheep & Goats")...


The first thing that really arises a big giggle in me  rofl ...is that each Christian which speaks about this passage WITHOUT EXCEPTION (for over 13 years of discussion of this passage), consider themselves of the "SHEEP"...  and in doing so, somehow DELUDE themselves into thinking that it is become their position to determine and settle eternity for NON-Christians (which they once were themselves) which are considered by them in their UNRIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT -- Matt 7:1 -- as the "GOATS"...  Such are in for a BIG BIG surprise.  Which shall come from the ONE which says that He shall come in an hour YE THINK NOT!  ::frown::


Actually, EVERY WORD of God is SPIRITUAL and must be SPIRITUALLY (not "literally") discerned -- 1 Cor 2:14 -- in order to garner SPIRITUAL TRUTH from it.  This means that the LITERAL observation of Scripture... (though at times contains LITERAL persons, and historical events which actually occurred) is always MUCH less than what is actually there.  The SPIRITUAL is a VAST OCEAN... the LITERAL is a small puddle by comparison.


That you are invested in the LITERAL, is indication of the brand of "theology" you are immersed within, and is entirely based upon the SURFACE of what is really there.  No offense intended toward you, but ...ATHEISTS (which not only do not "believe" in, but stand firmly against the very concept of DIVINE existence)... will deduce the very same things as have your "theology" presents concerning this passage of Scripture. 


The Lord JESUS is speaking in PARABLES - which are of the MOST FIGURATIVE and NON-LITERAL of Biblical language... the mention of "sheep and goats"...  is PARABOLIC.


Even though JESUS is speaking figuratively before and after the mention of SHEEP & GOATS... you shall deem these to be LITERAL human beings... going to LITERAL places (a LITERAL Kingdom of Heaven and LITERAL "everlasting fire")... Yet you accept that JESUS is using Himself metaphorically as the one fed, or the one visited in prison?  How wishy washy is  that?  Picking and choosing what part of SPIRITUAL text shall be LITERAL and what part shall be SPIRITUAL?  I think it is YOU dear Helen that is inventing THEOLOGY... while unwilling to see through this varying method of deception you use in reading the Holy WORD.   


Making the WORD subject to YOUR choosings of LITERAL and SPIRITUAL... instead of submitting unto the WORD, and its completely SPIRITUAL discernments -- 1 Cor 2:14


Shall we get REAL LITERAL and develop this a step further?  In the text following the Sheep & Goats, JESUS notes that it was HE that is LITERALLY fed, when a human being is fed?  Or it is HE which is LITERALLY visited in prison whenever a human in prison is visited? 


Have you ever served at a homeless shelter?  I have, and never ONCE did I see JESUS being fed at dinner.  I have visited one in prison, but JESUS was not the one I visited.  What I experienced in the Shelter, was what HE would do and DOES.   He would have us DO unto others as we would have them DO unto us... and when this actually is DONE... then when you give something unto me, that you would have me give unto you, ...then indeed HE is giving as you (because you are just like Him) ...and HE is receiving as I (because I am just like Him)!


You say that the sheep and goats are LITERALLY humans being separated... and yet you accept the figurative offerings that come next in the context?  And the figurative words that preceeded in context, the "sheep & goats"?  You INSERT the LITERAL amidst a SPIRITUAL story, and bring THAT to the WORLD that GOD so LOVES?


This is the double mindedness that Modern Christianity has developed...


Taking the WORD of God and applying to IT themselves as it BENEFITS THEM, while applying it to others UNBENEFICIALLY?   ::juggle:: 


A SINNER, proclaiming judgment of others, failing to drop his/her stone, UNWILLING to see what Scripture TRUTHFULLY SAYS ---  (1) - self oriented and - (2) - self centered -- holding the perception of oneself as a saved sheep while teaching condemnation of another sinner which one do not even KNOW, as a lost goat!   


Believing that ones salvation to has come to them via the BACKWARD vision which observes that salvation became valid via - ONES APPROVAL of JESUS (by "accepting" CHRIST = the SINFUL "accepting" the HOLY), rather than entering into the GRAND and MAJESTIC humility of HIS APPROVAL of you (CHRIST "accepting you" = The HOLY accepting the SINFUL), ...failing to see that neither SHEEP nor GOAT can even possibly SAVE themselves due to their own doing or choosing...


This is far short of receiving REVELATION.  I hope you reconsider your present position, and will be in prayer about it!  ::prayinghard::


You are more than welcome to dwell where you are... doesn't matter to me... the increase is His to give or not -- 1 Cor 3:7 -- according to HIS WILL... which I LOVE... and of the depths of my heart, ...I wish you the greatest measure possible of His...


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Beta on Thu Sep 05, 2013 - 12:45:04
Hi willieH
I am having some trouble understanding you....too much info in one go !
If I get you right are you saying it is the 'good or evil that we do which is being judged by God/Christ and that is what is being 'corrected in us to lead us into eternal life....because it is not God's Will that any should perish. So it is not 'people who will perish in fire everlasting but our 'bad deeds will be burned up ?
Please keep your answer simple , one step at the time !
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: willieH on Thu Sep 05, 2013 - 17:11:36
Hi willieH
I am having some trouble understanding you....too much info in one go !
If I get you right are you saying it is the 'good or evil that we do which is being judged by God/Christ and that is what is being 'corrected in us to lead us into eternal life....because it is not God's Will that any should perish. So it is not 'people who will perish in fire everlasting but our 'bad deeds will be burned up ?
Please keep your answer simple , one step at the time !


Exactly Jeff!  The works which are EVIL, will not abide in the eternal, nor survive this realm of time...


This LIFE is the LAKE of FIRE mentioned in the book of Revelation.  Each work of EVIL, passes into eternal NON-existence. 


On the other hand, ...the WORKS of CHRIST in us -- Gal 2:20 -- will survive this realm, and thereby memorialize His GLORY forever.


JESUS (and the PERFECT and COMPLETE work of His CROSS to reconcile us - Col 1:20) -- is "taking away" -- John 1:29 -- the SIN of the WORLD,  ...moment by moment,  ...life by life...  ::clappingoverhead::


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Beta on Fri Sep 06, 2013 - 03:01:52
Hi again, Yes I can agree with what you say above...so
can we connect our human suffering to the fact of having our sins erased,forgiven, wiped out AS we get rid of it ? Are we healed of sufferings when we stop sinning ?
(by suffering I mean illness, bad things going on in our life)
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: chosenone on Fri Sep 06, 2013 - 03:57:01
However not all will be dsaved as the Bibel makes very clear. Many will og along the wide ropad thatr leasd to
Hi willieH
I am having some trouble understanding you....too much info in one go !
If I get you right are you saying it is the 'good or evil that we do which is being judged by God/Christ and that is what is being 'corrected in us to lead us into eternal life....because it is not God's Will that any should perish. So it is not 'people who will perish in fire everlasting but our 'bad deeds will be burned up ?
Please keep your answer simple , one step at the time !


Exactly Jeff!  The works which are EVIL, will not abide in the eternal, nor survive this realm of time...


This LIFE is the LAKE of FIRE mentioned in the book of Revelation.  Each work of EVIL, passes into eternal NON-existence. 


On the other hand, ...the WORKS of CHRIST in us -- Gal 2:20 -- will survive this realm, and thereby memorialize His GLORY forever.


JESUS (and the PERFECT and COMPLETE work of His CROSS to reconcile us - Col 1:20) -- is "taking away" -- John 1:29 -- the SIN of the WORLD,  ...moment by moment,  ...life by life...  ::clappingoverhead::


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH

However not all are saved of course. Jesus Himself said many are these who go along the wide road that leads to destruction.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: willieH on Fri Sep 06, 2013 - 16:48:01
Hi again, Yes I can agree with what you say above...so
can we connect our human suffering to the fact of having our sins erased,forgiven, wiped out AS we get rid of it ? Are we healed of sufferings when we stop sinning ?
(by suffering I mean illness, bad things going on in our life)

This is a tough thing to answer, and a very good question Beta...   ::nodding::


Though I have dedicated the majority of my life unto the Lord, and intensely prayed and studied as well as sought to do the right thing in my life does not remove the fact of my suffering with Cancer for the last 5 years.  However... even in the suffering... I can see many blessings... and always refer to -- Heb 2:10 -- as it notes that SUFFERING was part of the process of PERFECTION in CHRIST.   


If we do not SUFFER, then we are not "like" our Savior in that respect!  ::shrug::  In order that we be "made" in the IMAGE of God, means that SUFFERING must be a part of that process... as JESUS suffered tremendously on our behalf.


That we are forgiven of SIN, does not remove the fact we have SOWN ungodliness and unrighteousness.  Just as the physical laws of God must be respected, and WILL bring consequence when they are not, so shall our deeds bring REAPING of what we have SOWN.  GOD's WRATH is come against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, so...  even though the CROSS of CHRIST has reconciled our misdoings on a spiritual and eternal basis,  ...does not remove the WRATH which unchangingly will come against us for our misdoings.


We are HEALED in the eternal sense, but in the life of the physical, ...concerning the SOWING of SIN, ...there will still be consequences to face.  Where we KNEW good and DID evil... is just not "tossed aside".   There is no LEARNING within dispensing of penalties which are rightfully due.  Any parent knows that it is within their LOVE to forgive a child his misdoings, but the WORD instructs us to use the ROD of CORRECTION as well, within their experience!  -- Prov 22:15


In -- John 8:3-11 -- Is the account of the ADULTRESS, brought before JESUS by the (religious) Pharisees... when all was said & done, there was no mention of repentance by her, nor by JESUS, just that her ACCUSERS were no longer present.  This is the TAKING AWAY of SIN...  JESUS instructed her to go and SIN no more...


As I see it, JESUS' vast LOVE for His flock is to assist in any way, the escape from the SOWING of SIN, that they will not REAP of its consequences.  That we are forgiven of SIN, does not remove the LAW of SOWING and REAPING.  GOD's WRATH ...IS... come against ...ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness -- Rom 1:18 -- So, indeed SUFFERING can occur if we continue involvement in SIN.


JESUS and our Father YHVH both LOVE us with unending/unbeginning/immeasureable LOVE... and it sorrows them deeply that we suffer in sin.  Wherever possible, they as do all LOVING parents, try to teach and recommend unto us as children, to stay away from that which can and will cause us suffering and harm.


We ARE healed of our sufferings, via our submission to the ONE which takes it away via HIS ACTIVE working in our live, in place of our own -- Gal 2:20 -- when we remain in submission to our Savior... we are not further "sowing" unto evil.


It is pretty widely known that all the Apostles, though they worked in the cause of Holiness, still found suffering in their lives... which is (as I see it), evidence of past sowing which had to meet Divine wrath.  Just because you become a Christian and you become and remain devoted to CHRIST for the rest of your life to Holiness, does not mean that SUFFERING is thereby omitted (from that point) from your experience.


GOD ALWAYS remains TRUE to Himself and unto His standards.  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th   The ball thrown UP, ...will come DOWN, eventually.   ::looking around::


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: Beta on Fri Sep 06, 2013 - 23:45:54
Hi again, Yes I can agree with what you say above...so
can we connect our human suffering to the fact of having our sins erased,forgiven, wiped out AS we get rid of it ? Are we healed of sufferings when we stop sinning ?
(by suffering I mean illness, bad things going on in our life)

This is a tough thing to answer, and a very good question Beta...   ::nodding::


Though I have dedicated the majority of my life unto the Lord, and intensely prayed and studied as well as sought to do the right thing in my life does not remove the fact of my suffering with Cancer for the last 5 years.  However... even in the suffering... I can see many blessings... and always refer to -- Heb 2:10 -- as it notes that SUFFERING was part of the process of PERFECTION in CHRIST.   


If we do not SUFFER, then we are not "like" our Savior in that respect!  ::shrug::  In order that we be "made" in the IMAGE of God, means that SUFFERING must be a part of that process... as JESUS suffered tremendously on our behalf.


That we are forgiven of SIN, does not remove the fact we have SOWN ungodliness and unrighteousness.  Just as the physical laws of God must be respected, and WILL bring consequence when they are not, so shall our deeds bring REAPING of what we have SOWN.  GOD's WRATH is come against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, so...  even though the CROSS of CHRIST has reconciled our misdoings on a spiritual and eternal basis,  ...does not remove the WRATH which unchangingly will come against us for our misdoings.


We are HEALED in the eternal sense, but in the life of the physical, ...concerning the SOWING of SIN, ...there will still be consequences to face.  Where we KNEW good and DID evil... is just not "tossed aside".   There is no LEARNING within dispensing of penalties which are rightfully due.  Any parent knows that it is within their LOVE to forgive a child his misdoings, but the WORD instructs us to use the ROD of CORRECTION as well, within their experience!  -- Prov 22:15


In -- John 8:3-11 -- Is the account of the ADULTRESS, brought before JESUS by the (religious) Pharisees... when all was said & done, there was no mention of repentance by her, nor by JESUS, just that her ACCUSERS were no longer present.  This is the TAKING AWAY of SIN...  JESUS instructed her to go and SIN no more...


As I see it, JESUS' vast LOVE for His flock is to assist in any way, the escape from the SOWING of SIN, that they will not REAP of its consequences.  That we are forgiven of SIN, does not remove the LAW of SOWING and REAPING.  GOD's WRATH ...IS... come against ...ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness -- Rom 1:18 -- So, indeed SUFFERING can occur if we continue involvement in SIN.


JESUS and our Father YHVH both LOVE us with unending/unbeginning/immeasureable LOVE... and it sorrows them deeply that we suffer in sin.  Wherever possible, they as do all LOVING parents, try to teach and recommend unto us as children, to stay away from that which can and will cause us suffering and harm.


We ARE healed of our sufferings, via our submission to the ONE which takes it away via HIS ACTIVE working in our live, in place of our own -- Gal 2:20 -- when we remain in submission to our Savior... we are not further "sowing" unto evil.


It is pretty widely known that all the Apostles, though they worked in the cause of Holiness, still found suffering in their lives... which is (as I see it), evidence of past sowing which had to meet Divine wrath.  Just because you become a Christian and you become and remain devoted to CHRIST for the rest of your life to Holiness, does not mean that SUFFERING is thereby omitted (from that point) from your experience.


GOD ALWAYS remains TRUE to Himself and unto His standards.  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th   The ball thrown UP, ...will come DOWN, eventually.   ::looking around::


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH

Thank you very much indeed for your honest reply which I see to be based on the Word of God !
It was what I expected !!! (nice to have it confirmed)
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: willieH on Sun Sep 08, 2013 - 13:45:11
However not all will be dsaved as the Bibel makes very clear. Many will og along the wide ropad thatr leasd to
Hi willieH
I am having some trouble understanding you....too much info in one go !
If I get you right are you saying it is the 'good or evil that we do which is being judged by God/Christ and that is what is being 'corrected in us to lead us into eternal life....because it is not God's Will that any should perish. So it is not 'people who will perish in fire everlasting but our 'bad deeds will be burned up ?
Please keep your answer simple , one step at the time !


Exactly Jeff!  The works which are EVIL, will not abide in the eternal, nor survive this realm of time...


This LIFE is the LAKE of FIRE mentioned in the book of Revelation.  Each work of EVIL, passes into eternal NON-existence. 


On the other hand, ...the WORKS of CHRIST in us -- Gal 2:20 -- will survive this realm, and thereby memorialize His GLORY forever.


JESUS (and the PERFECT and COMPLETE work of His CROSS to reconcile us - Col 1:20) -- is "taking away" -- John 1:29 -- the SIN of the WORLD,  ...moment by moment,  ...life by life...  ::clappingoverhead::


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH

However not all are saved of course. Jesus Himself said many are these who go along the wide road that leads to destruction.

The word translated in the KJV version of the Bible to be -- "DESTRUCTION" (in the verse to which you refer -- Matt 7:13) is translated "LOST" in the parables of the "LOST" sheep, coin, and son -- Luke 15:1-32 -- ALL of these (though for a time, they were EACH in a state of "DESTRUCTION"), were EACH, ...RECOVERED.   That you choose NOT to investigate this, shall be your own undoing.   


Unless in humility, you change your position, and decide at least to "take a look", you shall find that YOUR own feet are place upon this pathway (and are included amongst those whom, though they COME in the Name of CHRIST)... are indeed embedded in INIQUITY -- Matt 7:22-23


That MEN are in a state of DESTRUCTION -- APOLLUMI - #G622 -- does not mean that they shall not be saved...  The WORD was SENT to SAVE THE WORLD -- 1 John 4:14 --  The WORD of YHVH God clearly notes that unto whatever the WORD is SENT to do, ...SHALL be accomplished -- Isaiah 55:11 --  despite the fact that the MAJORITY of men (and women) who have set foot on the Earth,  have not the sight to see the GLORY of this majesty. 


As JESUS remains the SAVIOR, without regard to the fact the 2/3's of the worlds population presently do not recognize Him to be such...  ::reading::  ...nevertheless, He ...IS... THE SAVIOR of the WORLD. 


That GOD has CLEARLY stated that HE is UNWILLING -- BOULEMA -- #G1014 -- that ANY PERISH... is basis enough, that NONE shall perish -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- regardless of whether or not YOU happen to see this.   ::shrug::


Stay where you are, chosenone.   But know this...  You shall REAP what you SOW -- Gal 6:8 -- no one shall MOCK God (via purposed IGNORANCE) and escape consequence for doing so. 


PEACE...   ::reading:: ...willieH
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: JohnDB on Tue Sep 10, 2013 - 05:06:40
Willie,

Did I read correct?

Have you got cancer?

I'm so sorry. How's your wife?  She doing OK?

Hang in there brother.
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: willieH on Fri Sep 13, 2013 - 14:11:43
Willie,

Did I read correct?

Have you got cancer?

I'm so sorry. How's your wife?  She doing OK?

Hang in there brother.

Yes... been battling it for 5 years... and amidst chemotherapy now... wife is doing great.  ::nodding::


Thanks so much for your compassion bro...  ::groupprayer::


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH
Title: Re: Hell is not eternal torment
Post by: SkyWriting on Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 21:06:04
Though I have dedicated the majority of my life unto the Lord, and intensely prayed and studied as well as sought to do the right thing in my life does not remove the fact of my suffering with Cancer for the last 5 years. 

The end of suffering will be the end of breathing and so breathing is a blessing.
No more breathing is coming for us all.