Hi Stephen,
Wonderful words of hope -- thank you for your responses.
I wondered if you might explain a couple of verses that I am personally having trouble resolving with your understanding of eternal torment / punishment.
You stated:
'Christians want to believe otherwise. But let's consider another reason why eternal torment makes no sense:
God says, "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:5). God also says, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17). God also says, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).'
I notice the scripture does not say He will be rid of the lake of fire, only that He will create a new heavens and new earth, and that the former things shall not be 'remembered or come to mind'. Who shall not remember the old things -- the forgiven, or God? Does God forget the trespasses of the wicked as He does the saved?
Also (in addressing His church) that their pain, death, suffering shall be removed, for those things have passed away (from them). Whose pain and suffering is removed -- that of the forgiven, of the wicked, or of God? Does not Jesus yet bear the scars of His crucifixion on His glorified body?
Rev. 20:10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev. 20:14 Death and Hades{or, Hell} were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev. 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers,{The word for "sorcerers" here also includes users of potions and drugs.} idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
Rev. 21:27 There will in no way enter into it (the holy city) anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev. 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
14:11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
I know you think that Christians are in error for believing in eternal torment and have difficulty accepting literal death. The truth is that there are a great number of very competent bible scholars that do not hold your point of view.
The Matthew Henry commentary on Matt. 25:41-46 states:
"if they (the condemned) must depart, and depart with a curse, may they not go into some place of ease and rest? Will it not be misery enough? No, there is a punishment of sense as well as loss; they must depart into fire, into torment as grievous as that of fire is to the body, and much more. this fire is the wrath of the eternal God fastening upon the guilty souls and consciences of sinners that have made themselves fuel for it. Our God is a consuming fire, and sinners fall immediately into His hands, (Hebrews 10:31, Romans 2:8,9). If into a fire, may it not be some light or gentle fire? No, it is a prepared fire; it is a torment ordained of old (Isaiah 30:33) ...In the vessels of wrath He makes His power known; it is a destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power....If into fire, prepared fire, O let it be of short continuance, let them but pass through the fire; No, the fire of God's wrath will be an everlasting fire; a fire that, fastening and preying upon immortal souls, can never go out for want of fuel; and being kindled and burning by the wrath of an immortal God, can never go out,....and the streams of mercy and grace being for ever excluded, there is nothing to extinguish it....If they must be doomed to such a state of endless misery, yet may they have some good company there? No, none but the devil and his angels, their sworn enemies, that helped to bring them to this misery, and will triumph over them in it. They served the devil while they lived and therefore are justly sentenced to be where he is, as those who served Christ, are taken to be with Him where He is.... The fire is said to be prepared, not primarily for the wicked, as the kingdom is prepared for the righteous; but it was originally prepared for the devil and his angels. If sinners make themselves associates with Satan by indulging their lusts, they may thank themselves if they become sharers in that misery prepared for him (Satan) and his associates. Calvin notes upon this, that therefore the torment of the damned is said to be prepared for the devil and his angels, to cut off all hope of escaping it; the devil and his angels are already made prisoners in the pit, and can the worms of the earth think to escape?
Walvoord and Zuck Bible Knowledge Commentary (same verses) states ..
"They will be removed from the earth and cast into 'eternal fire' to undergo eternal punishment. With all wickedness removed in the Second Advent, the kingdom will begin on earth with only saved individuals in physical bodies constituting the earthly kingdom as King's subjects."
And on Rev. 14:11 says: "The doctrine of eternal punishment, while unpopular with liberal scholars and difficult to accept, is nevertheless clearly taught in the Bible. Jesus and the Apostle John say more on this subject than does all the rest of the Bible."
The differing viewpoints perhaps come from a different understanding of who/what is being addressed in certain verses, the spiritual nature of death, and the utter holiness and justice of God. It is my understanding that the eternal God is concerned with the eternal nature of our lives, first and foremost. Our physical / carnal bodies are but temporary vessels, bound for corruption, yet to be remade incorruptible (for the saved) to participate in the kingdom of God. God does not need man, nor the love of man, for He was complete without mankind and would remain so if He had allowed all to perish. That is the wonder of His love, mercy and sacrifice. But He is Holy, and we are not. He is a God of wrath as well as a God of love. We cannot fathom, nor understand, nor judge His 'feelings', as His ways and thoughts are as high above ours as the heavens above the earth.
When Christ cried out on the cross, "Why have you forsaken me?" was it the physical death, or the separation of His spirit from communion with the Father that He lamented? Though He did die physically, what fear or distress would He, who had raised the dead Himself and foreknew His physical resurrection, dread? In my understanding, it was that spiritual separation from the Father that led Jesus to lament. It was THAT death which He tasted for us all, that held eternal significance. It is THAT death which we as sinners have had in Adam. And, if we are without His grace, we will experience it again at the lake of fire. The second death -- a death that is never finished. It is we who are concerned with the carnal, temporal and perishable things, having eyes that do not see, and ears that do not hear.
We are made in His image. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We are soul, body and spirit. That which is eternal is our eternal; that which is mortal and remade, has provided the way for our remaking, and that which speaks to us the things of the kingdom, communes us with His life-giving presence.
Will we then, make God in our image? Do we imagination to judge His judgement, and the deny His righteous punishment of those He called earnestly to save, but who rejected Him for the beast? If He makes them ashes under His feet, as they burn for eternity, is it not His justice that is served, by rewarding the unrepentant with that which they have chosen? He will not allow them mercy, for they chose none. He will not care for them below, as they cared for Satan above Him. God will remove His redeemed from knowledge, concern and care for the wicked, for it is the eternal smoke of their torment that rises up before Him for ever and ever. He will not forget their sins, for that grace belongs to His children alone.
I admit, it is a most unpleasant consideration, but difficult to dogmatically deny by the scriptures. It strikes fear into my soul as I study to see if it is so. Let's both pray and make our purpose more sure to share the gospel of truth as often as we are given opportunity, so that we do not see those we have known fall into any other fate than that which we claim in Christ.
My apologies for the length of the post. God bless you brother.
Topic: Conscious Eternal Torment? (Read 14266 times)