Hell is not eternal torment
(Author : ObeyTheGospel)
« Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:01:28 »
Based on a few misunderstandings of scripture, the majority of Christians believe that lost souls are going to burn forever in a pit of burning sulphur without any hope of rest or peace. This teaching has even caused many Christian to live in fear in case they end up in hell fire. But is this what the Bible really teaches. I will be happy to have a discussion with those Christians who hold to this view and show them how they have misunderstood the scriptures. I'm always open for a friendly discussion. Jesus said "Come, let us reason together."God bless
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Reply #1 by Supplanter
Welcome to the forum, but this is not the theology. I am on my phone and will not be able to move the post to the appropriate place until later, but please try to post topics in their most appropriate forums. Very good topic though. Thanks!
« Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:57:45 »
Hi,Welcome to the forum, but this is not the theology. I am on my phone and will not be able to move the post to the appropriate place until later, but please try to post topics in their most appropriate forums. Very good topic though. Thanks!
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Reply #2 by TJW
I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.
« Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 12:09:26 »
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends. I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.
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Reply #3 by Debbie_55
God said that he would that none should perish, but those who have rejected God and His word are those who will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity by their own choice, even if they do not believe in Heaven or Hell, we believe because we know that Gods word is truth and does not come back void in our lives.
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7 as they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 and I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 and I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 and he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 and he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 but the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
« Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 12:18:09 »
Many scriptures depict hell as fire and brimstone burning for eternity, but none of us actually knows what it will look like or feel to be cast there. In my own minds eye I see hell as a place where those who have rejected God, whether they be good or bad people, burning in a torment (fire and brimstone could be a metaphor for torment) of having to see those who have heard the call of God and have accepted Him and now live in a place of paradise with all the fullness of God in all His glory. No more tears, no more hurts, pain sickness, etc, etc. Those in hell are outside the realm of God continuing in all their sin, sickness, hurts, pain tears, etc. etc., but can see those who are in the glory of the Lord like looking through a window and wanting what others have, but will never have it and this is their torment for eternity as they are constantly consumed with the fire that burns in their souls for what they have rejected and now to late to receive.God said that he would that none should perish, but those who have rejected God and His word are those who will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity by their own choice, even if they do not believe in Heaven or Hell, we believe because we know that Gods word is truth and does not come back void in our lives.
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7 as they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 and I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 and I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 and he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 and he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 but the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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Reply #4 by ObeyTheGospel
The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.
The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.
The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.
« Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 12:51:33 »
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends. I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.
I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.
The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.
The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.
The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.
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Reply #5 by Ladonia
So it is you who now has the correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures. Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!
« Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 13:03:22 »
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends. I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.
I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.
The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.
The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.
The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.
So it is you who now has the correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures. Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!
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Reply #6 by ObeyTheGospel
I'm sorry if this offends you. I thought as Christians we should be able to disagree in a friendly manner. It seems a lot of Christians get angry these days, especially when someone doesn't believe that a lost soul will be tortured for eternity. All I am doing is giving the other side of the story. I am showing that scripture can be distorted by people who do not dig below the surface. I don't know why you had to get sarcastic. Did I touch a nerve or something?
« Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 13:39:50 »
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends. I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.
I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.
The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.
The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.
The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.
So it is you who now has the correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures. Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!
I'm sorry if this offends you. I thought as Christians we should be able to disagree in a friendly manner. It seems a lot of Christians get angry these days, especially when someone doesn't believe that a lost soul will be tortured for eternity. All I am doing is giving the other side of the story. I am showing that scripture can be distorted by people who do not dig below the surface. I don't know why you had to get sarcastic. Did I touch a nerve or something?
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Reply #7 by Ladonia
Well, when you started out with "the problem with Christians today is they take a verse....". So, you are the only one who does? Accusing others from the outset that they don't? Maybe they do and perhaps don't see the particular verses in quite the same light as you do. I am all for friendly discussion, quote a verse, tell your opinion, but accusations right from the start?
« Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 15:30:36 »
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends. I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.
I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.
The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.
The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.
The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.
So it is you who now has the correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures. Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!
I'm sorry if this offends you. I thought as Christians we should be able to disagree in a friendly manner. It seems a lot of Christians get angry these days, especially when someone doesn't believe that a lost soul will be tortured for eternity. All I am doing is giving the other side of the story. I am showing that scripture can be distorted by people who do not dig below the surface. I don't know why you had to get sarcastic. Did I touch a nerve or something?
Well, when you started out with "the problem with Christians today is they take a verse....". So, you are the only one who does? Accusing others from the outset that they don't? Maybe they do and perhaps don't see the particular verses in quite the same light as you do. I am all for friendly discussion, quote a verse, tell your opinion, but accusations right from the start?
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Reply #8 by ObeyTheGospel
In all fairness a lot of Christians do take verses out of context without digging below the surface. And even if I come across as a little offensive, shouldn't you have prayed for me instead of replying with sarcasm? I thought Christians are suppose to love each other?
« Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 15:41:08 »
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends. I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.
I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.
The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.
The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.
The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.
So it is you who now has the correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures. Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!
I'm sorry if this offends you. I thought as Christians we should be able to disagree in a friendly manner. It seems a lot of Christians get angry these days, especially when someone doesn't believe that a lost soul will be tortured for eternity. All I am doing is giving the other side of the story. I am showing that scripture can be distorted by people who do not dig below the surface. I don't know why you had to get sarcastic. Did I touch a nerve or something?
Well, when you started out with "the problem with Christians today is they take a verse....". So, you are the only one who does? Accusing others from the outset that they don't? Maybe they do and perhaps don't see the particular verses in quite the same light as you do. I am all for friendly discussion, quote a verse, tell your opinion, but accusations right from the start?
In all fairness a lot of Christians do take verses out of context without digging below the surface. And even if I come across as a little offensive, shouldn't you have prayed for me instead of replying with sarcasm? I thought Christians are suppose to love each other?
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Reply #9 by Ladonia
You are correct, prayer would have been better (after a gentle admonition without the sarcasm). I apologize for my poor response. And if you would pray for me it would be appreciated. Thanks, and may God bless you always!
« Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 16:02:53 »
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends. I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.
I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.
The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.
The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.
The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.
So it is you who now has the correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures. Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!
I'm sorry if this offends you. I thought as Christians we should be able to disagree in a friendly manner. It seems a lot of Christians get angry these days, especially when someone doesn't believe that a lost soul will be tortured for eternity. All I am doing is giving the other side of the story. I am showing that scripture can be distorted by people who do not dig below the surface. I don't know why you had to get sarcastic. Did I touch a nerve or something?
Well, when you started out with "the problem with Christians today is they take a verse....". So, you are the only one who does? Accusing others from the outset that they don't? Maybe they do and perhaps don't see the particular verses in quite the same light as you do. I am all for friendly discussion, quote a verse, tell your opinion, but accusations right from the start?
In all fairness a lot of Christians do take verses out of context without digging below the surface. And even if I come across as a little offensive, shouldn't you have prayed for me instead of replying with sarcasm? I thought Christians are suppose to love each other?
You are correct, prayer would have been better (after a gentle admonition without the sarcasm). I apologize for my poor response. And if you would pray for me it would be appreciated. Thanks, and may God bless you always!
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Reply #10 by LaSpino3
Also eternal means, perpetual, everlasting. Scriptures teach, that God is eternal.
Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God."
The Holy Spirit is eternal, Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit,
Scriptures teach, Matt.19:29, Whoever gives up all they have and follows Jesus, He said, they "Shall inherit everlasting life."
For those who do as the rich man did to Lazaras, Jesus said, Matt.25:41, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Compare to,
Matt.25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal." Compare with,
Dan.12:2, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
In you believe in everlasting life, then you have to believe in everlasting punishment. Its in the same sentence, and the same word, in Matthew, and Daniel. So you have a Old and New Testament supporting the idea behind eternal, or everlasting life, verses, everlasting punishment.
Eternal: 166. Greek is, aionios. Perpetual, everlasting, eternal.
a-1. Spoken chiefly of time future, of God, Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." 1 Tim.
6:16. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God."
a-2. Of the happiness of the righteous, Matt.19:29, 25:46, "Everlasting punishment." Mark 10:30, "Eternal life." John 3:15-16-36. Rom.2:7. 2 Cor.4:17. In some passages this, "May have life eternal, is equivalent to, John 3:15, coll. with ver.3-5. Matt.19:16. Acts 13:46.
a-3. Of the punishment of the wicked, Matt.18:8, 25:41-46. Mark 3:29, "Eternal damnation." 2 Thes.1:9. Heb.6:2. Jude 7. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting," Dan.12:2.
a-4. Genr. 2 Cor.4:18, 5:1. Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit, "Heb.13:20. 1 John 1:2. Rev.
14:6. Philem.15, as an adverb. "Forever," always. Sept. for Heb. Gen.9:16. 17:7.
Phil LaSpino
« Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 18:51:21 »
ObeyTheGospel, "If the story Jesus told about the rich man and the poor man is not true, and just a parable, and you claim it is a parable, what moral or spiritual truth is it teaching. What exactly are you saying it symbolizes? and what is the lession it teaches if a parable?"Also eternal means, perpetual, everlasting. Scriptures teach, that God is eternal.
Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God."
The Holy Spirit is eternal, Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit,
Scriptures teach, Matt.19:29, Whoever gives up all they have and follows Jesus, He said, they "Shall inherit everlasting life."
For those who do as the rich man did to Lazaras, Jesus said, Matt.25:41, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Compare to,
Matt.25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal." Compare with,
Dan.12:2, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
In you believe in everlasting life, then you have to believe in everlasting punishment. Its in the same sentence, and the same word, in Matthew, and Daniel. So you have a Old and New Testament supporting the idea behind eternal, or everlasting life, verses, everlasting punishment.
Eternal: 166. Greek is, aionios. Perpetual, everlasting, eternal.
a-1. Spoken chiefly of time future, of God, Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." 1 Tim.
6:16. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God."
a-2. Of the happiness of the righteous, Matt.19:29, 25:46, "Everlasting punishment." Mark 10:30, "Eternal life." John 3:15-16-36. Rom.2:7. 2 Cor.4:17. In some passages this, "May have life eternal, is equivalent to, John 3:15, coll. with ver.3-5. Matt.19:16. Acts 13:46.
a-3. Of the punishment of the wicked, Matt.18:8, 25:41-46. Mark 3:29, "Eternal damnation." 2 Thes.1:9. Heb.6:2. Jude 7. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting," Dan.12:2.
a-4. Genr. 2 Cor.4:18, 5:1. Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit, "Heb.13:20. 1 John 1:2. Rev.
14:6. Philem.15, as an adverb. "Forever," always. Sept. for Heb. Gen.9:16. 17:7.
Phil LaSpino
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Reply #11 by inthenow
After the Great White Throne Judgment the unsaved are thrown into the lake of fire, this is the second death, not punishment forever.
Eternal punishment is not punishment forever but punishment from the Eternal - who is God, as I see it.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
But it looks as though satan's punishment is forever. I wonder if the fate of the fallen angels are mentioned somewhere?
I realise this is very short to affirm what I have said, but further info. may be coming from some.
« Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 19:16:19 »
Rev 21:8 but the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.After the Great White Throne Judgment the unsaved are thrown into the lake of fire, this is the second death, not punishment forever.
Eternal punishment is not punishment forever but punishment from the Eternal - who is God, as I see it.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
But it looks as though satan's punishment is forever. I wonder if the fate of the fallen angels are mentioned somewhere?
I realise this is very short to affirm what I have said, but further info. may be coming from some.
Logged
Reply #12 by Beta
Ezek.18v4; ....the soul that sins it shall die - and again
v20; ...the soul that sins it shall die.
It would not be possible for a soul to live in eternal torment since it is ' mortal ' !!!
'immortal soul' is not a biblical concept.
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 01:50:37 »
Ezek.18v4; ....the soul that sins it shall die - and again
v20; ...the soul that sins it shall die.
It would not be possible for a soul to live in eternal torment since it is ' mortal ' !!!
'immortal soul' is not a biblical concept.
Logged
Reply #13 by ObeyTheGospel
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus has a deep meaning. I have listened to different interpretations on what this parable means, but to take it as a literal event wouldn't make much sense for a variety of reasons: When were humans given immortal souls? Where did Adam and Eve go after they died? There is no mention of immortal souls anywhere in the Bible. You can't just take a single parable and interpret it as a literal real event.
When it comes to "everlasting" or "eternal" in the Bible you have to read it in its context. Sometimes the word "eternal" is to be taken literally, but many other times the word "eternal" or "everlasting" did not literally mean forever. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but they were turned to ashes. It just means that the results of the fire are eternal. Also when the Bible says "unquenchable fire," it only meant that nobody could put out the fire. The fire did not literally burn forever. The wicked will have eternal punishment i.e eternal death, not eternal life in hell.
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 02:28:16 »
ObeyTheGospel, "If the story Jesus told about the rich man and the poor man is not true, and just a parable, and you claim it is a parable, what moral or spiritual truth is it teaching. What exactly are you saying it symbolizes? and what is the lession it teaches if a parable?"
Also eternal means, perpetual, everlasting. Scriptures teach, that God is eternal.
Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God."
The Holy Spirit is eternal, Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit,
Scriptures teach, Matt.19:29, Whoever gives up all they have and follows Jesus, He said, they "Shall inherit everlasting life."
For those who do as the rich man did to Lazaras, Jesus said, Matt.25:41, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Compare to,
Matt.25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal." Compare with,
Dan.12:2, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
In you believe in everlasting life, then you have to believe in everlasting punishment. Its in the same sentence, and the same word, in Matthew, and Daniel. So you have a Old and New Testament supporting the idea behind eternal, or everlasting life, verses, everlasting punishment.
Eternal: 166. Greek is, aionios. Perpetual, everlasting, eternal.
a-1. Spoken chiefly of time future, of God, Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." 1 Tim.
6:16. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God."
a-2. Of the happiness of the righteous, Matt.19:29, 25:46, "Everlasting punishment." Mark 10:30, "Eternal life." John 3:15-16-36. Rom.2:7. 2 Cor.4:17. In some passages this, "May have life eternal, is equivalent to, John 3:15, coll. with ver.3-5. Matt.19:16. Acts 13:46.
a-3. Of the punishment of the wicked, Matt.18:8, 25:41-46. Mark 3:29, "Eternal damnation." 2 Thes.1:9. Heb.6:2. Jude 7. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting," Dan.12:2.
a-4. Genr. 2 Cor.4:18, 5:1. Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit, "Heb.13:20. 1 John 1:2. Rev.
14:6. Philem.15, as an adverb. "Forever," always. Sept. for Heb. Gen.9:16. 17:7.
Phil LaSpino
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus has a deep meaning. I have listened to different interpretations on what this parable means, but to take it as a literal event wouldn't make much sense for a variety of reasons: When were humans given immortal souls? Where did Adam and Eve go after they died? There is no mention of immortal souls anywhere in the Bible. You can't just take a single parable and interpret it as a literal real event.
When it comes to "everlasting" or "eternal" in the Bible you have to read it in its context. Sometimes the word "eternal" is to be taken literally, but many other times the word "eternal" or "everlasting" did not literally mean forever. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but they were turned to ashes. It just means that the results of the fire are eternal. Also when the Bible says "unquenchable fire," it only meant that nobody could put out the fire. The fire did not literally burn forever. The wicked will have eternal punishment i.e eternal death, not eternal life in hell.
Logged
Reply #14 by ObeyTheGospel
I also apologize for being a little judgemental. May God bless you too.
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 02:30:39 »
It is a very good topic indeed, and I was one who believed this for years because of the faulty teaching of my church, my family, and friends. I have recognized in the last few years that you are correct, the bible does not teach this if taken as a whole.
I am interested to hear your viewpoint upon the "problem" verses.
The most common arguments used to support the notion of eternal burning are the rich man and Lazarus and verses that use the words "everlasting fire," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," etc.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is very vague and cannot be used as concrete proof that people have immortal souls that burn forever. If this parable is to be taken literally as a real event then I ask the question: where did Adam and Eve go after they died? Did they go to a paradise underneath the earth, or did they go to a place of torment called Hades? I would like to know when humans were given "immortal souls." There are tons of passages in the Bible that speak of death as a sleep without any mention of an immortal soul going to paradise or torment after death. Therefore one single parable cannot be used against the weight of evidence that teaches something opposite.
The words "everlasting or unquenchable fire" are also distorted. According to Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but yet Sodom and Gomorrah were annihilated and turned to ashes. Also in Matthew 3:12 John the baptist says He will burn up with unquenchable fire. To burn something up means to consume it. The word "unquenchable" means that nobody will be able to put out the fire. I can give examples in the Bible where God burned things up with unquenchable fire, but yet the fire did not burn forever.
The problem with Christians today is that they take a verse at first glance and don't bother to dig below the surface. If we go strictly by the Bible and are consistent, nobody can support the doctrine of an eternal hell where immortal souls will burn for eternity. I choose to stick with what the Bible teaches.
So it is you who now has the correct biblical interpretaion? Thank God that we can now receive proper instruction concerning the Scriptures. Can't wait to see you and poster Giver in a one on one, that ought to be interesting!
I'm sorry if this offends you. I thought as Christians we should be able to disagree in a friendly manner. It seems a lot of Christians get angry these days, especially when someone doesn't believe that a lost soul will be tortured for eternity. All I am doing is giving the other side of the story. I am showing that scripture can be distorted by people who do not dig below the surface. I don't know why you had to get sarcastic. Did I touch a nerve or something?
Well, when you started out with "the problem with Christians today is they take a verse....". So, you are the only one who does? Accusing others from the outset that they don't? Maybe they do and perhaps don't see the particular verses in quite the same light as you do. I am all for friendly discussion, quote a verse, tell your opinion, but accusations right from the start?
In all fairness a lot of Christians do take verses out of context without digging below the surface. And even if I come across as a little offensive, shouldn't you have prayed for me instead of replying with sarcasm? I thought Christians are suppose to love each other?
You are correct, prayer would have been better (after a gentle admonition without the sarcasm). I apologize for my poor response. And if you would pray for me it would be appreciated. Thanks, and may God bless you always!
I also apologize for being a little judgemental. May God bless you too.
Logged
Reply #15 by Insight
Obeythegospel,
You have a like mind (in me) here in his thread
The only way to truly expose the fraudulent teachings of demonic supernatural being's is to expound the passage to it’s
fullest, until there is no more room for such error.
Eventually, by doing so, you will leave the errorist's to the their mystic nonsensical ideas and you can watch them run very quickly from truth though we would not have it so.
Here is an example of two "Christians" running from a Job study on Satan from which they still are yet to return.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/non-traditional-theology/job-chastening-and-perfecting-a-son-of-god/75/?PHPSESSID=445c278993e3bf7e9ea20b7f3e375a72
I boast in these victories as Jesus Christ who is the captain of our truth can illuminate their folly and replace it with a solid foundation of Bible truth.
Let’s begin by considering a breakup of the Luke 15 & 16
15:1-2 Parables arose because of Jesus’ associations with publicans and sinners
15:28 Churlish eldest son refuses to feast with repentant brother
16:1 Unjust steward wastes his Lord’s goods
16:4-7 Unfaithfully writes down debts owed to his Lord
16:14 Parable applied to Pharisees as “lovers of money
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 05:44:07 »
ObeyTheGospel, "If the story Jesus told about the rich man and the poor man is not true, and just a parable, and you claim it is a parable, what moral or spiritual truth is it teaching. What exactly are you saying it symbolizes? and what is the lession it teaches if a parable?"
Also eternal means, perpetual, everlasting. Scriptures teach, that God is eternal.
Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God."
The Holy Spirit is eternal, Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit,
Scriptures teach, Matt.19:29, Whoever gives up all they have and follows Jesus, He said, they "Shall inherit everlasting life."
For those who do as the rich man did to Lazaras, Jesus said, Matt.25:41, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Compare to,
Matt.25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal." Compare with,
Dan.12:2, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
In you believe in everlasting life, then you have to believe in everlasting punishment. Its in the same sentence, and the same word, in Matthew, and Daniel. So you have a Old and New Testament supporting the idea behind eternal, or everlasting life, verses, everlasting punishment.
Eternal: 166. Greek is, aionios. Perpetual, everlasting, eternal.
a-1. Spoken chiefly of time future, of God, Rom.16:26, "The everlasting God." 1 Tim.
6:16. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting" Gen.21:33. Isa.40:28, "The everlasting God."
a-2. Of the happiness of the righteous, Matt.19:29, 25:46, "Everlasting punishment." Mark 10:30, "Eternal life." John 3:15-16-36. Rom.2:7. 2 Cor.4:17. In some passages this, "May have life eternal, is equivalent to, John 3:15, coll. with ver.3-5. Matt.19:16. Acts 13:46.
a-3. Of the punishment of the wicked, Matt.18:8, 25:41-46. Mark 3:29, "Eternal damnation." 2 Thes.1:9. Heb.6:2. Jude 7. Sept. for Heb. "Everlasting," Dan.12:2.
a-4. Genr. 2 Cor.4:18, 5:1. Heb.9:14, "Eternal Spirit, "Heb.13:20. 1 John 1:2. Rev.
14:6. Philem.15, as an adverb. "Forever," always. Sept. for Heb. Gen.9:16. 17:7.
Phil LaSpino
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus has a deep meaning. I have listened to different interpretations on what this parable means, but to take it as a literal event wouldn't make much sense for a variety of reasons: When were humans given immortal souls? Where did Adam and Eve go after they died? There is no mention of immortal souls anywhere in the Bible. You can't just take a single parable and interpret it as a literal real event.
When it comes to "everlasting" or "eternal" in the Bible you have to read it in its context. Sometimes the word "eternal" is to be taken literally, but many other times the word "eternal" or "everlasting" did not literally mean forever. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire (Jude 1:7), but they were turned to ashes. It just means that the results of the fire are eternal. Also when the Bible says "unquenchable fire," it only meant that nobody could put out the fire. The fire did not literally burn forever. The wicked will have eternal punishment i.e eternal death, not eternal life in hell.
Obeythegospel,
You have a like mind (in me) here in his thread
The only way to truly expose the fraudulent teachings of demonic supernatural being's is to expound the passage to it’s
fullest, until there is no more room for such error.
Eventually, by doing so, you will leave the errorist's to the their mystic nonsensical ideas and you can watch them run very quickly from truth though we would not have it so.
Here is an example of two "Christians" running from a Job study on Satan from which they still are yet to return.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/non-traditional-theology/job-chastening-and-perfecting-a-son-of-god/75/?PHPSESSID=445c278993e3bf7e9ea20b7f3e375a72
I boast in these victories as Jesus Christ who is the captain of our truth can illuminate their folly and replace it with a solid foundation of Bible truth.
Let’s begin by considering a breakup of the Luke 15 & 16
15:1-2 Parables arose because of Jesus’ associations with publicans and sinners
15:28 Churlish eldest son refuses to feast with repentant brother
16:1 Unjust steward wastes his Lord’s goods
16:4-7 Unfaithfully writes down debts owed to his Lord
16:14 Parable applied to Pharisees as “lovers of money
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 05:57:04 by Insight »
Logged
Reply #16 by cs80918
1 Corinthians 3:4
For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.
So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.
OP- I guess your main issue is you don't believe we go from mortality to immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into leternal life.
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 11:59:39 »
Our goal as Christians should not be to defend the gospel of a denomination, but to seek the truth of God.1 Corinthians 3:4
For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.
So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.
OP- I guess your main issue is you don't believe we go from mortality to immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into leternal life.
Logged
Reply #17 by inthenow
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
When one is saved through faith in Christ, that one is one with Him. Which one of you would have someone punished for eternity?
AN OPINION.
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 16:33:15 »
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
When one is saved through faith in Christ, that one is one with Him. Which one of you would have someone punished for eternity?
AN OPINION.
Logged
Reply #18 by Insight
Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".
If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 17:06:35 »
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
When one is saved through faith in Christ, that one is one with Him. Which one of you would have someone punished for eternity?
AN OPINION.
Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".
If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.
Logged
Reply #19 by inthenow
Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".
If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.
Matthew 10:28 has soul as seperate from body.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Man can kill the body but not the soul, God can destroy both.
Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.
[/quote]
Soul = life, mind, and yes our emotions and nature is part of that I believe.
soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 17:54:39 »
Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".
If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.
Matthew 10:28 has soul as seperate from body.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Man can kill the body but not the soul, God can destroy both.
Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.
[/quote]
Soul = life, mind, and yes our emotions and nature is part of that I believe.
soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
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Reply #20 by Insight
You state unashamedly Platonic doctrine with origins in Egyptian mythology.
Out of your own mouth you teach immortal Spirit beings are able to transgress Yahweh in Heaven.
Of course this means your reward, be it eternal, is tainted by flesh lusts that lead to sin!
Good luck teaching that error.
Insight
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 18:04:16 »
Most know not the meaning or context of the word "soul".
If it can sin - it must be flesh and body and if it dies and corupts back to the earth then it is clear.
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.
Matthew 10:28 has soul as seperate from body.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Man can kill the body but not the soul, God can destroy both.
Soul = body, flesh, human nature etc.
Soul = life, mind, and yes our emotions and nature is part of that I believe.
soul
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
You state unashamedly Platonic doctrine with origins in Egyptian mythology.
Quote
Hi Insight, Satan and a third of the angels were not flesh when they sinned.
Out of your own mouth you teach immortal Spirit beings are able to transgress Yahweh in Heaven.
Of course this means your reward, be it eternal, is tainted by flesh lusts that lead to sin!
Good luck teaching that error.
Insight
Logged
Reply #21 by Insight
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The above quote is the Devine decree upon all sin...you must say yes!
If this be true your satan will die of his own accord!
Lets see how fast you can run from truth...
Shall we?
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 18:09:12 »
Lets see if you can play dodge? For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The above quote is the Devine decree upon all sin...you must say yes!
If this be true your satan will die of his own accord!
Lets see how fast you can run from truth...
Shall we?
Logged
Reply #22 by Insight
Rom 6:23 just did this to your fallen angel theology and satanic worship doctrine.
You can thank me later
Insight
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 18:20:19 »
You can always see platonic error a mile away, as it often only takes one powerful verse to bring the whole teaching undone. Rom 6:23 just did this to your fallen angel theology and satanic worship doctrine.
You can thank me later
Insight
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Reply #23 by Insight
Are you trying to reconcile fallen angel with Rom 6:23?
I am sitting here eager to hear your explanation.
Please don’t let me down...
Waiting...
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 18:24:02 »
What no response? Are you trying to reconcile fallen angel with Rom 6:23?
I am sitting here eager to hear your explanation.
Please don’t let me down...
Waiting...
Logged
Reply #24 by Insight
Error is laid to rest but what of the state of the dead?
Maybe you would heed the Proverb in a twofold lesson… The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead. Prov 21:16
Many will stay there held by its strong grip.
Insight
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 18:53:29 »
Shush…all is quiet Error is laid to rest but what of the state of the dead?
Maybe you would heed the Proverb in a twofold lesson… The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead. Prov 21:16
Many will stay there held by its strong grip.
Insight
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Reply #25 by YesImAFreshman
I just happened across this string, and am trying to grasp your viewpoint concerning body, soul, spirit, eternal life, judgement, etc. topics. Would you be willing to summarize your biblical understanding of these things?
If this is an inappropriate request, please accept my apologies-- I am new to this type of forum.
Thanks, Al
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 20:15:56 »
Hello Insight,I just happened across this string, and am trying to grasp your viewpoint concerning body, soul, spirit, eternal life, judgement, etc. topics. Would you be willing to summarize your biblical understanding of these things?
If this is an inappropriate request, please accept my apologies-- I am new to this type of forum.
Thanks, Al
Logged
Reply #26 by Insight
Hi Al,
It appears you may be rescued this thread as the others have moved on left in confusion as to their fallen angel theology. These are they who are taught error from a child and never question their beliefs they are held under their deception that God has failed to control His Heavenly Realm.
Put simply they do not understand angels…at all!
Do you actually believe that God allowed sin to enter Heaven? I am continually amazed at how many believers have been persuaded by this teaching? But most of all it saddens me that many do not understand sin.
That’s right, if you understood sin this post would not have been written. The origin of Sin will answer one question, but you will have many more at the end of this study.
I will stress that sin comes from inside us. It is our fault we sin - we inherited a nature which is prone to sin Romans 5:12-14. It is because we have a free will to choose between good and evil that we sin. Do you honestly believe the ministering spirits (angels) which bear His name and do His work have free will to choose evil? They dwell in light unapproachable, they are glorified beings who are pure and holy as He is holy.
No, long has the human race laid blame at the feet of a supernatural make believe devil, or in their case some presumed fallen angel. The very thought contradicts all scripture concerning God’s will being done in Heaven.
How could Jesus pray these words if an Angel fell?
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6
So they say its God’s will for angels to sin in Heaven and that Jesus would have a fallable God whose will is not obeyed in heaven to come to earth?
How so – Sin in heaven to be brought to earth?
Christians in the main are thick and that is being nice! They don’t hear the Scriptures they wrest them with human imaginations rather than asking the right questions and receiving the right answers.
Why would you aim for immortality if you could still sin? I hear you thinking "thats not right" Why would God reward those that diligently seek Him with eternal life, when we are no different to our current state?
What this means is the Scriptures you thought you understood have now become something else! There must be more!
Do you hope of a prospect of becoming an eternal sinner?
?...yes, I know it just doesn’t sound right nor does it fit.
You need to remember "the wages of sin is death" (Rom.6:23)
When you labour at work...your wages is money.
When you sin your wages is death.
Sin leads to death.
If it is not our fault that we sin, but that of the devil, then a just God ought to punish the devil rather than us.
But the fact that we are judged for our own sins shows that we are responsible for our sins. The concept of the devil being a specific person outside of us, rather than the principle of sin within us is an attempt to move the responsibility for our sins away from ourselves. This is yet another example of men refusing to come to terms with what the Bible teaches about man's nature.
Our nature is fundamentally sinful…as it leads to death and the law has the dominion in our members!
"There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him...For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders...pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within and defile the man" (Mk.7:15-23 Jesus Speaking).
The idea that there is something sinful outside of us which enters us and causes us to sin is incompatible with the plain teaching of Jesus here. From within, out of the heart of man, come all these evil things. This is why, at the time of the flood, God considered that
"the imagination of man's heart (mind i.e carnal, animal) is evil from his youth" (Gen.8:21).
In other words people were constantly thinking of ways to be evil.
James 1:14 tells us how we are tempted: "Every man (it is the same process for each human being) is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust ("of his own evil desire", N.I.V.) and enticed". We are tempted by our own lusts, our own evil desires; not by anything outside of us. "From whence come wars and fighting’s among you?", James asks; "Come they not hence, even of your lusts?" (James 4:1).
Each of us has specific, personal temptations. They therefore have to be generated by our own evil desires, because they are personal to us. It has been truly said that we are our own worst enemy.
Paul laments: "In me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing...for the good that I would I do not...if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" (Rom.7:18-21). Now he does not blame his sinning on an external being called the devil. He located his own evil nature as the real source of sin: "It is not I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law (within me), that, when I would do good, evil is present with (i.e. within) me". So he says that the opposition to being spiritual comes from something that he calls "sin dwelling in me".
David, another undoubtedly a righteous man commented upon the constant sinfulness of his very nature: "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:5).
The Bible is very explicit about wicked nature of man. If this is understood there is no need to invent an imaginary person outside our human natures who is responsible for our sins.
Jer.17:9 says that the heart of man is so desperately wicked and deceitful that we cannot actually appreciate the gross extent of its sinfulness.
Finally, show me where God informs us of a fallen angel.
Chapter, Book and verse.
1. What caused the angel to fall
2. Why wasn’t the sentence of death passed? Rom 6:23
3. If so explain how God is unjust for not passing the same law that binds us to death.
4. Show an understanding from Gen 1-3 of the fallen angel; immortality of the soul
That should be enough to keep you all busy running off you’re many books of knowledge.
Insight
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 20:53:42 »
Hello Insight,
I just happened across this string, and am trying to grasp your viewpoint concerning body, soul, spirit, eternal life, judgement, etc. topics. Would you be willing to summarize your biblical understanding of these things?
If this is an inappropriate request, please accept my apologies-- I am new to this type of forum.
Thanks, Al
Hi Al,
It appears you may be rescued this thread as the others have moved on left in confusion as to their fallen angel theology. These are they who are taught error from a child and never question their beliefs they are held under their deception that God has failed to control His Heavenly Realm.
Put simply they do not understand angels…at all!
Do you actually believe that God allowed sin to enter Heaven? I am continually amazed at how many believers have been persuaded by this teaching? But most of all it saddens me that many do not understand sin.
That’s right, if you understood sin this post would not have been written. The origin of Sin will answer one question, but you will have many more at the end of this study.
I will stress that sin comes from inside us. It is our fault we sin - we inherited a nature which is prone to sin Romans 5:12-14. It is because we have a free will to choose between good and evil that we sin. Do you honestly believe the ministering spirits (angels) which bear His name and do His work have free will to choose evil? They dwell in light unapproachable, they are glorified beings who are pure and holy as He is holy.
No, long has the human race laid blame at the feet of a supernatural make believe devil, or in their case some presumed fallen angel. The very thought contradicts all scripture concerning God’s will being done in Heaven.
How could Jesus pray these words if an Angel fell?
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6
So they say its God’s will for angels to sin in Heaven and that Jesus would have a fallable God whose will is not obeyed in heaven to come to earth?
How so – Sin in heaven to be brought to earth?
Christians in the main are thick and that is being nice! They don’t hear the Scriptures they wrest them with human imaginations rather than asking the right questions and receiving the right answers.
Why would you aim for immortality if you could still sin? I hear you thinking "thats not right" Why would God reward those that diligently seek Him with eternal life, when we are no different to our current state?
What this means is the Scriptures you thought you understood have now become something else! There must be more!
Do you hope of a prospect of becoming an eternal sinner?
?...yes, I know it just doesn’t sound right nor does it fit.You need to remember "the wages of sin is death" (Rom.6:23)
When you labour at work...your wages is money.
When you sin your wages is death.
Sin leads to death.
If it is not our fault that we sin, but that of the devil, then a just God ought to punish the devil rather than us.
But the fact that we are judged for our own sins shows that we are responsible for our sins. The concept of the devil being a specific person outside of us, rather than the principle of sin within us is an attempt to move the responsibility for our sins away from ourselves. This is yet another example of men refusing to come to terms with what the Bible teaches about man's nature.
Our nature is fundamentally sinful…as it leads to death and the law has the dominion in our members!
"There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him...For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders...pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within and defile the man" (Mk.7:15-23 Jesus Speaking).
The idea that there is something sinful outside of us which enters us and causes us to sin is incompatible with the plain teaching of Jesus here. From within, out of the heart of man, come all these evil things. This is why, at the time of the flood, God considered that
"the imagination of man's heart (mind i.e carnal, animal) is evil from his youth" (Gen.8:21).
In other words people were constantly thinking of ways to be evil.
James 1:14 tells us how we are tempted: "Every man (it is the same process for each human being) is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust ("of his own evil desire", N.I.V.) and enticed". We are tempted by our own lusts, our own evil desires; not by anything outside of us. "From whence come wars and fighting’s among you?", James asks; "Come they not hence, even of your lusts?" (James 4:1).
Each of us has specific, personal temptations. They therefore have to be generated by our own evil desires, because they are personal to us. It has been truly said that we are our own worst enemy.
Paul laments: "In me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing...for the good that I would I do not...if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" (Rom.7:18-21). Now he does not blame his sinning on an external being called the devil. He located his own evil nature as the real source of sin: "It is not I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law (within me), that, when I would do good, evil is present with (i.e. within) me". So he says that the opposition to being spiritual comes from something that he calls "sin dwelling in me".
David, another undoubtedly a righteous man commented upon the constant sinfulness of his very nature: "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:5).
The Bible is very explicit about wicked nature of man. If this is understood there is no need to invent an imaginary person outside our human natures who is responsible for our sins.
Jer.17:9 says that the heart of man is so desperately wicked and deceitful that we cannot actually appreciate the gross extent of its sinfulness.
Finally, show me where God informs us of a fallen angel.
Chapter, Book and verse.
1. What caused the angel to fall
2. Why wasn’t the sentence of death passed? Rom 6:23
3. If so explain how God is unjust for not passing the same law that binds us to death.
4. Show an understanding from Gen 1-3 of the fallen angel; immortality of the soul
That should be enough to keep you all busy running off you’re many books of knowledge.
Insight
Logged
Reply #27 by YesImAFreshman
Thank you for your response, Al
Matthew, Chapter 4
4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
4:2 When he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was hungry afterward.
4:3 The tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"{Deuteronomy 8:3}
4:5 Then the devil took him into the holy city. He set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
4:6 and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, 'He will put his angels in charge of you.' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, so that you don't dash your foot against a stone.'"{Psalm 91:11-12}
4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test the Lord, your God.'"{Deuteronomy 6:16}
4:8 Again, the devil took him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory.
4:9 He said to him, "I will give you all of these things, if you will fall down and worship me."
4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Get behind me,{TR and NU read "Go away" instead of "Get behind me"} Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.'"{Deuteronomy 6:13}
4:11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and served him.
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 21:38:13 »
Hello again Insight,Thank you for your response, Al
Matthew, Chapter 4
4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
4:2 When he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was hungry afterward.
4:3 The tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"{Deuteronomy 8:3}
4:5 Then the devil took him into the holy city. He set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
4:6 and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, 'He will put his angels in charge of you.' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, so that you don't dash your foot against a stone.'"{Psalm 91:11-12}
4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test the Lord, your God.'"{Deuteronomy 6:16}
4:8 Again, the devil took him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory.
4:9 He said to him, "I will give you all of these things, if you will fall down and worship me."
4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Get behind me,{TR and NU read "Go away" instead of "Get behind me"} Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.'"{Deuteronomy 6:13}
4:11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and served him.
Logged
Reply #28 by Insight
So what are the possibilities of the adversary (satan)?
1. A make believe supernatural being the like you would see in a Hollywood movie?
2. The High Priest of the Sanhedrin
3. An Angel
4. His own mind
Honestly which of these can you tell me you have explored before coming to option 1?
Be honest!
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 21:41:10 »
Hello again Insight,
Thank you for your response, Al
Matthew, Chapter 4
4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
4:2 When he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was hungry afterward.
4:3 The tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"{Deuteronomy 8:3}
4:5 Then the devil took him into the holy city. He set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
4:6 and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, 'He will put his angels in charge of you.' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, so that you don't dash your foot against a stone.'"{Psalm 91:11-12}
4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test the Lord, your God.'"{Deuteronomy 6:16}
4:8 Again, the devil took him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory.
4:9 He said to him, "I will give you all of these things, if you will fall down and worship me."
4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Get behind me,{TR and NU read "Go away" instead of "Get behind me"} Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.'"{Deuteronomy 6:13}
4:11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and served him.
So what are the possibilities of the adversary (satan)?
1. A make believe supernatural being the like you would see in a Hollywood movie?
2. The High Priest of the Sanhedrin
3. An Angel
4. His own mind
Honestly which of these can you tell me you have explored before coming to option 1?
Be honest!
Logged
Reply #29 by YesImAFreshman
12:7 There was war in the sky. Michael and his angels made war on the dragon. The dragon and his angels made war.
12:8 They didn't prevail, neither was a place found for him any more in heaven.
12:9 The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
12:10 I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now is come the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb's blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life, even to death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil has gone down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a short time."
12:13 When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
12:14 Two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, so that she might be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 The serpent spewed water out of his mouth after the woman like a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.
12:16 The earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon spewed out of his mouth.
12:17 The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:10:10 »
Revelation 12:7-1712:7 There was war in the sky. Michael and his angels made war on the dragon. The dragon and his angels made war.
12:8 They didn't prevail, neither was a place found for him any more in heaven.
12:9 The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
12:10 I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now is come the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb's blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life, even to death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil has gone down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a short time."
12:13 When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
12:14 Two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, so that she might be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 The serpent spewed water out of his mouth after the woman like a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.
12:16 The earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon spewed out of his mouth.
12:17 The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.
Logged
Reply #30 by Insight
Couldn’t take me to Genesis?
Interesting?
Couldn’t answer my questions honestly re Matt 4.
Even more revealing!
Any babe can cut and paste scripture...
I guess thus far you are that babe?
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:12:55 »
Revelation 12:7-17
12:7 There was war in the sky. Michael and his angels made war on the dragon. The dragon and his angels made war.
12:8 They didn't prevail, neither was a place found for him any more in heaven.
12:9 The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
12:10 I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now is come the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb's blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life, even to death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil has gone down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a short time."
12:13 When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
12:14 Two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, so that she might be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 The serpent spewed water out of his mouth after the woman like a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.
12:16 The earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon spewed out of his mouth.
12:17 The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.
Couldn’t take me to Genesis?
Interesting?
Couldn’t answer my questions honestly re Matt 4.
Even more revealing!
Any babe can cut and paste scripture...
I guess thus far you are that babe?
Logged
Reply #31 by Insight
Do you believe in dragons Al?
Like this one or different?
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:17:31 »
Revelation 12:7-17
12:7 There was war in the sky. Michael and his angels made war on the dragon. The dragon and his angels made war.
12:8 They didn't prevail, neither was a place found for him any more in heaven.
12:9 The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
12:10 I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now is come the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb's blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life, even to death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil has gone down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a short time."
12:13 When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
12:14 Two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, so that she might be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 The serpent spewed water out of his mouth after the woman like a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.
12:16 The earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon spewed out of his mouth.
12:17 The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.
Do you believe in dragons Al?
Like this one or different?
Logged
Reply #32 by YesImAFreshman
3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any animal of the field which Yahweh God had made. He said to the woman, "Has God really said, 'You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?'"
3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat,
3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
3:4 The serpent said to the woman, "You won't surely die,
3:5 for God knows that in the day you eat it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit, and ate; and she gave some to her husband with her, and he ate.
Revelation 20:1-3
20:1 I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 He seized the dragon, the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole inhabited earth, and bound him for a thousand years,
20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were finished. After this, he must be freed for a short time.
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:19:14 »
Genesis 3:1-63:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any animal of the field which Yahweh God had made. He said to the woman, "Has God really said, 'You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?'"
3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat,
3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
3:4 The serpent said to the woman, "You won't surely die,
3:5 for God knows that in the day you eat it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit, and ate; and she gave some to her husband with her, and he ate.
Revelation 20:1-3
20:1 I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 He seized the dragon, the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole inhabited earth, and bound him for a thousand years,
20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were finished. After this, he must be freed for a short time.
Logged
Reply #33 by Insight
Who made your demonic being?
No, surely not...
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:21:09 »
Genesis 3:1-6
3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any animal of the field which Yahweh God had made. He said to the woman, "Has God really said, 'You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?'"
Who made your demonic being?
No, surely not...
Logged
Reply #34 by Insight
It appears Al has ceased from pasting.
Maybe his implication of the Father creating a demonic being has stopped him in his tracks?
We shall see?
« Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 22:43:02 »
It appears Al has ceased from pasting.
Maybe his implication of the Father creating a demonic being has stopped him in his tracks?
We shall see?
Logged