Author Topic: Who creates our soul? (Read 5761 times)

Jimmy · « **Reply #60 on:** December 28, 2011, 07:14:58 AM »

Quote from: Merryone on December 28, 2011, 06:55:35 AM

Quote from: Jimmy on December 28, 2011, 06:54:00 AM
Quote from: Merryone on December 28, 2011, 06:48:32 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 28, 2011, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: Merryone on December 28, 2011, 06:40:43 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 28, 2011, 06:37:35 AM
Quote from: Merryone on December 28, 2011, 06:25:36 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 28, 2011, 06:19:16 AM
Quote from: Merryone on December 28, 2011, 06:13:05 AM
God creates man who possesses a soul. It is good, but it is tainted by the fall, but the spirit of man is void of the knowledge of God until the spirit of God awakens it.

How, precisely, was it tainted by the fall?

Since Adam and Eve's sin, all mankind now are tainted with sin. It can be said that it is in our DNA. No one is born knowing God as Adam and Eve were created to know God. That is the result of their sin separating them from God.

When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. Romans 5:12

There is no argument that cab stand up to this truth.

Jesus countered that idea with his oft quoted

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The spirit is not born of flesh. It is not in our DNA. Adan and Eve cannot separate anyone but themselves from God.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are all born of the flesh and it is tainted with the curse of sin.When we are born of the spirit, that is wiped away.

So you really believe that God gave you a spirit tainted with the curse of sin. I find that absolutely unbelievable that anyone would think that of God.

Yes he did. I was born a sinner, just like king David said he was. No one on this planet since Adam has ever been born without the curse of sin. It is only unbelievable to those who like to think that they are good, even though God tells us all that no one is good, and all of us have sinned and all come short of the glory of God. Either God is right or he's a liar and no one really needs a saviour.

Your statement, "Yes he did", ought to be the clue to you just how wrong, just how heinous is the concept of original sin.

There's nothing heinous about it, although sin is heinous. It is reality. Pride is what keeps people from realizing it. One correction, though: We are born innocent, but because of the fall of man, we are born with the curse of sin on us. Our spirits are born empty or dead to the things of God, until the Holy Ghost comes to influence us.

It absolutely is heinous. The very idea that God would give a tainted, fallen spirit to us is repulsive if you even think about it a little. That is the scourge of Augustine who invented it. Our spirits are from God. They are not tainted when given. They become tainted when we sin. That is why we have to be REborn, i.e., REgenerated.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #60 on:** December 28, 2011, 07:14:58 AM »

Merryone · « **Reply #61 on:** December 28, 2011, 11:50:12 AM »

Quote from: Jimmy on December 28, 2011, 07:14:58 AM

Quote from: Merryone on December 28, 2011, 06:55:35 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 28, 2011, 06:54:00 AM
Quote from: Merryone on December 28, 2011, 06:48:32 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 28, 2011, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: Merryone on December 28, 2011, 06:40:43 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 28, 2011, 06:37:35 AM
Quote from: Merryone on December 28, 2011, 06:25:36 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 28, 2011, 06:19:16 AM
Quote from: Merryone on December 28, 2011, 06:13:05 AM
God creates man who possesses a soul. It is good, but it is tainted by the fall, but the spirit of man is void of the knowledge of God until the spirit of God awakens it.

How, precisely, was it tainted by the fall?

Since Adam and Eve's sin, all mankind now are tainted with sin. It can be said that it is in our DNA. No one is born knowing God as Adam and Eve were created to know God. That is the result of their sin separating them from God.

When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. Romans 5:12

There is no argument that cab stand up to this truth.

Jesus countered that idea with his oft quoted

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The spirit is not born of flesh. It is not in our DNA. Adan and Eve cannot separate anyone but themselves from God.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are all born of the flesh and it is tainted with the curse of sin.When we are born of the spirit, that is wiped away.

So you really believe that God gave you a spirit tainted with the curse of sin. I find that absolutely unbelievable that anyone would think that of God.

Yes he did. I was born a sinner, just like king David said he was. No one on this planet since Adam has ever been born without the curse of sin. It is only unbelievable to those who like to think that they are good, even though God tells us all that no one is good, and all of us have sinned and all come short of the glory of God. Either God is right or he's a liar and no one really needs a saviour.

Your statement, "Yes he did", ought to be the clue to you just how wrong, just how heinous is the concept of original sin.

There's nothing heinous about it, although sin is heinous. It is reality. Pride is what keeps people from realizing it. One correction, though: We are born innocent, but because of the fall of man, we are born with the curse of sin on us. Our spirits are born empty or dead to the things of God, until the Holy Ghost comes to influence us.

It absolutely is heinous. The very idea that God would give a tainted, fallen spirit to us is repulsive if you even think about it a little. That is the scourge of Augustine who invented it. Our spirits are from God. They are not tainted when given. They become tainted when we sin. That is why we have to be REborn, i.e., REgenerated.

You can't blame God for it. He set the laws in motion. since the fall of man, every person born has been born under the curse of sin. There is only one way out, and that is through Jesus Christ and what he did for us at Calvary.

No one doesn't sin.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #61 on:** December 28, 2011, 11:50:12 AM »

Beta · « **Reply #62 on:** December 28, 2011, 12:49:59 PM »

Quote from: Jimmy on December 28, 2011, 06:04:24 AM

Quote from: Catholica on August 31, 2010, 12:58:54 PM
I have these questions for you, if you believe in annihilationism: Who creates our soul? Is that creation good or evil?

Zec_12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

Now to all those who believe in original sin -- Do you really believe that God who forms the spirit of man within him, forms a spirit which is dead in sin in the very outset?

As I understand it 'the spirit in man is our human ability to think and reason and is given to every person whether they accept God/Christ or not. This human spirit or mind empowers man to function in his/her earthly life.
The human spirit in man is NOT the Holy Spirit and has become polluted and pervertsd Rom.8v7. Therefore man will die unless he repents for the soul that sins shall die. The human spirit on it's own does not give us eternal life .God has to add HIS HS to ours upon our obedience to Him Acts 5v32.

Beta · « **Reply #63 on:** December 28, 2011, 01:03:18 PM »

God did not give us a 'tainted spirit...absolutely not !

But the spirit in man which is for our earthly life has the ability to sin and become polluted ....it is our own doing through free choice whether or not we want to love and obey God. Disobedience was /is man's downfall.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #63 on:** December 28, 2011, 01:03:18 PM »

Merryone · « **Reply #64 on:** December 28, 2011, 01:07:43 PM »

The spirit in man is inert in the unsaved person. When we receive Jesus Christ as our own savior, he comes in to dwell in that spirit by His spirit. It becomes alive and perfect with his presence there and contains all the blessings and promises that come with salvation. It is the soul of man that is tainted, which is the personhood and the mind of man.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #64 on:** December 28, 2011, 01:07:43 PM »

Beta · « **Reply #65 on:** December 28, 2011, 02:09:24 PM »

Quote from: Merryone on December 28, 2011, 01:07:43 PM

The spirit in man is inert in the unsaved person. When we receive Jesus Christ as our own savior, he comes in to dwell in that spirit by His spirit. It becomes alive and perfect with his presence there and contains all the blessings and promises that come with salvation. It is the soul of man that is tainted, which is the personhood and the mind of man.

Joh.14v23,24 seems to show there is a condition attached to the promise of Jesus making his 'abode in man. It has to do with 'obedience and 'keeping the Word of God. That is again restated in Heb.5v9.and there is no getting away from that no matter how man squirms and wriggles against the Word.
How can man be 'renewed in the mind if he won't accept a new way of life ?

ajb4 · « **Reply #66 on:** January 15, 2012, 10:02:05 PM »

Hello Beta,

I'm sorry if it seemed I was focusing too much on your viewpoints. I confess that I do hold some different understanding of scriptures than what you have stated here, but I do not claim exclusive knowledge. Reason dictates that there can be only one truth, and it seems we are both searching to understand what that truth is. Knowing, in full assurance of faith, that the truth is contained in the Word of God, I am seeking to resolve these differences, and hopefully, benefit us both.

I am curious if you might indulge me, as this forum is for nontraditional theology, with what denomination/sect/doctrine/faith do your theological viewpoints align? (if any). Please do not feel obliged to answer if you do not wish to do so. I think mine mostly align with an orthodox, evangelical, non-denom., Wesleyan, inerrancy of the Bible, sort of perspective -- awkward I know. I was raised an RC as well, but do not agree with their doctrine and conventions.

Thank you and God bless.

Beta · « **Reply #67 on:** January 16, 2012, 06:57:11 AM »

Quote from: ajb4 on January 15, 2012, 10:02:05 PM

Hello Beta,

I'm sorry if it seemed I was focusing too much on your viewpoints. I confess that I do hold some different understanding of scriptures than what you have stated here, but I do not claim exclusive knowledge. Reason dictates that there can be only one truth, and it seems we are both searching to understand what that truth is. Knowing, in full assurance of faith, that the truth is contained in the Word of God, I am seeking to resolve these differences, and hopefully, benefit us both.

I am curious if you might indulge me, as this forum is for nontraditional theology, with what denomination/sect/doctrine/faith do your theological viewpoints align? (if any). Please do not feel obliged to answer if you do not wish to do so. I think mine mostly align with an orthodox, evangelical, non-denom., Wesleyan, inerrancy of the Bible, sort of perspective -- awkward I know. I was raised an RC as well, but do not agree with their doctrine and conventions.

Thank you and God bless.

Oh hello there ,
thought you had vanished from these forums !
Well, as you can see there are some very strange claims to a variety of belliefs and truths all supposedly based on scripture....so I'm not sure mine would be any more enlightening.
I firmly believe that truth is 'revealed by God and none of us can work it out for ourselves...but neither is it revealed all in one go. I believe it is revealed as one puts it into practice bit by bit. If we don't begin to live the first basic belief there will not follow any more. God will not have His precious knowledge wasted or trampled underfoot.
I could point you to the website of my Church if you had a true interest but there are rather strict requirements like
keeping the Sabbath and annual feasts,
tithing, and
food laws.
These are not particularly favoured by most so we are not a popular Church.

ajb4 · « **Reply #68 on:** January 16, 2012, 08:19:45 PM »

Dear Beta,

Thank you for your gracious response. My personal experience with 'popular' churches has not always been a spiritually fulfilling one.

I perceive we are in full agreement with our understanding of the challenges in attaining God's truth. Still, I find the pursuit of His truth such a wonderful adventure, I can't help but inquire about the why's and how's when someone has reached a different understanding than have I. As fellow travelers on that road, it seems ever more essential to cross reference through scripture, prayer and Godly counsel to maintain perspective and direction. I suspect you might agree.

Your desire to maintain spiritual observances and disciplines to honor God seems fully praiseworthy to me. As long as the purpose of those things is understood in light of the scriptures, and not in an attempt to add to the already fulfilled work of Christ, I can find no discord. The church I attend maintains the sacraments of baptism and communion, with services conducted by scriptural exegesis, and independent weekly life group (bible study) meetings. We agree with the Apostles / Nicene creed(s) as stated in the registration portion of this forum.

I inquire of your perspective not for judgement, because that is not mine, but for understanding. It seems that when we are forced to support our perspective, we can more deeply examine and understand it ourselves. I am truly thankful for your willingness to share your viewpoints. God bless.

ByHisGrace07 · « **Reply #69 on:** March 12, 2012, 03:25:10 AM »

In reading the Genesis account of when God created the first man we learn what is the essence of a human being. At least the way God originally intended man to be.

In the beginning:

1)God said, Let Us make man in Our image, in Our likeness.

2)So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

More specifically:

3)God formed the man from the dust of the ground.

4)He then breathed into his nostrils the "breath of life" (being the Holy Spirit).

5)Then man became a living soul.

So from this we learn that man is a spirit, brought forth from the Holy Spirit who is life w/in us. As spirits living in the earth, we live w/in a human vessel; a physical body made from the earth. In order to function in a physical world. Having the "breathe of life" within us is also, what gives us our identity as one who bears the "image and likeness of God". The image that God desired to be multiplied throughout the earth. But this is what was lost when man fell into sin.

We also, have a soul. Although, man was originally intended to be one in spirit w/God and one another by His Spirit, we each have a soul giving us our individuality. Our difference in personality, feelings, opinion, taste, intentions and will is an expression of our souls. Like w/everything we see in the creation, God wanted variety also, amongst us.

Now every human being has a body, a spirit and a soul. But not every human being has the "breath of life". Only those who have repented of their sinful nature, choosing to surrender to the will of God. In the process, receiving the indwelling of the Spirit of God (who is life), who in turn along w/the word (the Bible) direct our souls, hearts, and minds in our new life and walk w/God.

As for those who DO NOT walk in repentance, not having the Holy Spirit, life is not present w/in them. They're alive in the natural sense. But spiritually are dead. Remaining disconnected from God.

When you die, your body returns to the dust from where it came, but your spirit and soul continue...either in heaven or hell. It is because we have a soul that whether we are in body or in spirit we continue to have our individuality.

Beta · « **Reply #70 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:38:24 AM »

Quote from: ByHisGrace07 on March 12, 2012, 03:25:10 AM

In reading the Genesis account of when God created the first man we learn what is the essence of a human being. At least the way God originally intended man to be.

In the beginning:

1)God said, Let Us make man in Our image, in Our likeness.

2)So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

More specifically:

3)God formed the man from the dust of the ground.

4)He then breathed into his nostrils the "breath of life" (being the Holy Spirit).

5)Then man became a living soul.

So from this we learn that man is a spirit, brought forth from the Holy Spirit who is life w/in us. As spirits living in the earth, we live w/in a human vessel; a physical body made from the earth. In order to function in a physical world. Having the "breathe of life" within us is also, what gives us our identity as one who bears the "image and likeness of God". The image that God desired to be multiplied throughout the earth. But this is what was lost when man fell into sin.

We also, have a soul. Although, man was originally intended to be one in spirit w/God and one another by His Spirit, we each have a soul giving us our individuality. Our difference in personality, feelings, opinion, taste, intentions and will is an expression of our souls. Like w/everything we see in the creation, God wanted variety also, amongst us.

Now every human being has a body, a spirit and a soul. But not every human being has the "breath of life". Only those who have repented of their sinful nature, choosing to surrender to the will of God. In the process, receiving the indwelling of the Spirit of God (who is life), who in turn along w/the word (the Bible) direct our souls, hearts, and minds in our new life and walk w/God.

As for those who DO NOT walk in repentance, not having the Holy Spirit, life is not present w/in them. They're alive in the natural sense. But spiritually are dead. Remaining disconnected from God.

When you die, your body returns to the dust from where it came, but your spirit and soul continue...either in heaven or hell. It is because we have a soul that whether we are in body or in spirit we continue to have our individuality.

I am sure you have seen all the arguments and confusion on forums arising from different perceptions of scripture. One believes it says this and another believes it says something else. Who is right

that is the question

It is human nature to think and believe in our own understanding....something God does not approve of. Why ? because it leads to disagreement and 'self-righteousness ! That's something else God does not like ...so what chance is there for man to ever get things right ?
From your post I see that you consider ' the breath of life equal to the Holy Spirit.
If that were so we would all be 'Gods' from the start.....couldn't do evil nor could we die. Obvious from scripture that is not the case so somehow your theory is wrong.
The 'breath of life' is just that...to give us human life during which time we are to acquire the 'Holy Spirit to give us 'Eternal life.

rstrats · « **Reply #71 on:** April 22, 2012, 06:18:56 AM »

I wonder what happened to Catholica? Unless I missed it, I don’t think he ever did cite his reason for starting this topic.

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