Welcome, Guest. Login or register to use the forums.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 12, 2010, 04:12:10 PM
Home Help Search Login Register
GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Bookstore | Support | Newsletter


+  Christian Forums
|-+  Christian Interests
| |-+  Apologetics Forum
| | |-+  ''...then produce one sura like these...''? Koran 2:23.		 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: ''...then produce one sura like these...''? Koran 2:23.  (Read 1407 times)
goodman
Junior Member
**

Manna: 0
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 38

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« on: August 06, 2007, 10:08:20 PM »

Hi everyone.


If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our
servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon
your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful.
[2:23]

Surely someone out there must have produced something similar as the Koran. This is a direct challenge of the Koran.

Im sure someone here will help me find stuff that has been produced that is similar?

Once I receive something similar as the Koranic verses, then I can refute them. Come on guy's help me out?


Regards goodman.
Logged
david johnson
Hero
*****

Manna: 66
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 3522


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2007, 04:20:56 AM »
no one else besides moslems really believe in allah.  i guess the koran is singular in that.  why would any write something similar?

book of mormon?  dianetics? vedic literature?

dj
Logged
rugged cross and rusty nails
broke right through the gates of hell
Christian Forums
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2007, 04:20:56 AM »
 Logged
goodman
Junior Member
**

Manna: 0
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 38

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2007, 05:53:39 AM »
Quote from: david johnson on August 07, 2007, 04:20:56 AM
no one else besides moslems really believe in allah.  i guess the koran is singular in that.  why would any write something similar?

book of mormon?  dianetics? vedic literature?

dj

Greetings david johnson




This is a verse from the Koran. Each Chapter starts with this, it translates as ''In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.'' Its 4 words consisting of 19 letters, as you can see in the image above.

Believe it or not that verse is mathematically calculated, by using their numerical value. Heres what I mean:

As you know it consists of 4 words which are 19 letters:

1 st word has 3 letters  2,60,40 =                 102
2 nd was has 4 letters 1,30,30,5 =                66
3 rd word has 6 letters 1,30,200,8,40,50 = 329   
4 th word has 6 letters 1,30,200,8,10,40 = 289
TOTAL             19                                                 786

The sequence number of each word in the Basmalah followed by the number of letters in it forms an 8-digit number which is a multiple of 19: 1 3 2 4 3 6 4 6 = 19 x 19 x 36686

Replace the number of letters in each word in Fact 2 by the total gematrical value of that word. Thus, the sequence number of each word is followed by its total gematrical value, to form a 15-digit number which is a multiple of 19:

1 102 2 66 3 329 4 289 = 19 x 5801401752331

Replace the total gematrical value of each word in Fact 3 by the gematrical value of every letter in that word. For instance, the total gematrical value of the first word, 102, is replaced by 2 60 40. Similarly, the total gematrical value of the second word, 66, is replaced by 1 30 30 5, and so on. The result is a 37-digit number which is a multiple of 19:

1 2 60 40 2 1 30 30 5 3 1 30 200 8 40 50 4 1 30 200 8 10 40 = 19 x 663369542265954221096868 63843162160

Insert the sequence number of each letter in the word before its gematrical value in Fact 4. For example, the gematrical values of the letters in first word are 2 60 40. When we insert the sequence numbers of the letters, we get 1 2 2 60 3 40, where the sequence numbers are in italics, the gematrical values are in bold. Similarly, the gematrical values of the letters in the second word are 1 30 30 5. When we insert the sequence numbers of the letters, we get 1 1 2 30 3 30 4 5, and so on. When all the numbers are put together, the result is a 56-digit number which is a multiple of 19:

1 1 2 2 60 3 40 2 1 1 2 30 3 30 4 5 3 1 1 2 30 3 200 4 8 5 40 6 50 4 1 1 2 30 3 200 4 8 5 10 6 40 = 19 x 590843895848580686595

Replace the total gematrical value of each word in Fact 3 by the sum of the gematrical values of the first and the last letter in that word. For instance, the total gematrical value of the first word, 102, is replaced by 42. The number 42 is the sum of 2 and 40, which are the gematrical values of the first and the last letter in the first word. Similarly, the total gematrical value of the second word, 66, is replaced by 6, the sum of 1 and 5. Repeating this process for the four words of the Basmalah,we get an 11-digit number which is a multiple of 19:

1 42 2 6 3 51 4 41 = 19 x 748755339 (2+40) (1+5) (1+50) (1+40)

Consider the numbers used in Fact 2 and Fact 3. In Fact 2, the sequence number of each word is followed by the number of letters (3, 4, 6, and 6) in the word. In Fact 3, we replace the number letters by the gematrical values of the words (102, 66, 329, and 289). Now, for this case, the sequence number of each word will be followed by the sum of the number of letters and the gematrical value of the word. Therefore, the number we use for the first word will be 105 (3+102). It will be70 (4+66) for the second word, 335 (6+329) for the third word, and 295 (6+289) for the fourth word. Thus the sequence number of each word in the Basmalah is followed by the numbers 105, 70, 335, and 295 respectively to form a 15-digit number which is also a multiple of 19:

1 105 2 70 3 335 4 295 = 19 x 5817212281805 (3+102) (4+66) (6+329) (6+289)

Consider Fact 2, where the sequence number of each word in the Basmalah is followed by the number of letters in the word. In this case, the sequence number of each word will be followed by the total number of letters up to and including that word (cumulative total). For example, the number of letters in the Basmalah's four words are 3, 4, 6 and 6, respectively. Then the cumulative total number of letters will be 3 for the first word. It will be 7 (3+4) for the second word, 13 (3+4+6) for the third word, and finally 19 (3+4+6+6) for the last word. Therefore, we write down the sequence numbers of the words followed by the cumulative total number of letters corresponding to the word. The result is a 10-digit number which is also a multiple of 19:

1    3   2    7    3    13    4    19 = 19 x 69858601

             (3+4)    (3+4+6) (3+4+6+6)

 This fact is very similar to Fact 8. In this fact, instead of using the cumulative total number of letters for each word, we use the cumulative total of the gematrical values of the letters corresponding to the word. For example, the gematrical value of the letters in the Basmalah's four words are 102, 66, 329 and 289, respectively. Then the cumulative total of the gematrical values of the letters will be 102 for the first word. It will be 168 (102+66) for the second word, 497 (102+66+329) for the third word, and finally 786 (102+66+329+289) for the last word.

Therefore, we write down the sequence numbers of the words followed by the cumulative total of the gematrical values of the letters corresponding to the word. The resultant 16-digit number is a multiple of 19:

1 102 2 168 3 497 4 786 = 19 x 58011412367094

The gematrical value of each letter is followed by its sequence number (1 through 19) in the Basmalah to form a 62-digit number that is a multiple of 19. The sequence numbers are printed in bold:

2 1 60 2 40 3 1 4 30 5 30 6 5 7 1 8 30 9 200 10 8 11 40 12 50 13 1 14 30 15 200 16 8 17 10 18 40 19 = 19 x 113696858647647 . . .

Theres much more combinations which are all consistent. You could even put the 4 words and 19 letters, with a gematrical value of 786, in reverse, and its still a multiple of 19.  I can't be bothered posting it all.

You'll be wondering why 19?:

Pickthall:

74:30-31 ''Above it are nineteen. We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the Fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the Scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude ? Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.''


Im hoping someone will be able to produce something like this. I did come across an article which came up with something very good and similar. It met all the criterias but failed in three major ways, even though they used half of the above verse from the Koran.
Logged
goodman
Junior Member
**

Manna: 0
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 38

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2007, 08:28:28 PM »

Here's the numerical values for the English Alphabet:

IANV = International Alphabet Number Value


Letters    A    B    C    D    E    F    G    H    I    J    K    L    M    N    O    P    Q    R    S    T    U    V    W    X    Y    Z

IANV Values    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10    11    12    13    14    15    16    17    18    19    20    21    22    23    24    25    26

IANV-gem Values    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10    20    30    40    50    60    70    80    90    100    200    300    400    500    600 700    800


I really hope someone out there is going to be able to crack this one for me?
Logged
goodman
Junior Member
**

Manna: 0
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 38

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2007, 08:37:01 PM »
  ABJAD AND THE RISE AND DECLINE OF ALPHANUMERIC SYSTEMS

Summarized from an essay by ;
Frank Lewis

Emory University

The word abjad is an acronym derived from the first four consonantal shapes in the Arabic alphabet -- Alif, Bá, Jim, Dál. As such abjad designates the letters of the Arabic alphabet (also known as alifbá') in the phrase hurúf al-abjad. An adjective formed from this, abjadí, means a novice at something. Nowadays the Arabic alphabet does not follow the sequence a-b-j-d, but rather the order: A-B-T-Th-J-H.-Kh-D (the basic shapes of the letters A-B-J-D without their diacritical dots do, however, occur in that order, insofar as T and Th are distinguished from B only by dots, and the H. and Kh from the J only by dots). However, the order A-B-J-D is quite ancient, insofar as the word abjad is not of Arabic origin, but comes from earlier written alphabets, perhaps from Phoenician though the sequence may be as old as Ugaritic. In any case, it certainly predates the writing down of Arabic, as can be seen by comparison of Hebrew (Aleph, Beth, Gimel, Daleth) and Greek (Alpha Beta Gamma Delta).

The Arabic alphabet and the corresponding numerical values known as abjad are therefore derived from earlier prototypes, as the following comparison shows:

Hebrew: Aleph = 1 Beth = 2 gimel = 3 daleth = 4

Greek : alpha = 1 beta = 2 gamma = 3 delta = 4

Arabic: alif = 1 bá' = 2 jím = 3 dál = 4

The so-called Arabic numerals that we use as ciphers to represent our numbers (1,2,3,4, etc.) were invented in India c. 600 A.D. They were first used in the Middle East by the mathematician al-Khwarazmi (c. 875), along with the zero. Though some Europeans were aware of these "Arabic" computational symbols as early as the 10th century, they did not come into general use until the 13th century in Europe. The point being that up until this time, written texts in Greek, Latin, Hebrew/Aramaic, Arabic/Persian, etc. used letters of the alphabet to represent numbers (the Latin equivalent is Roman numerals).

The Arabic numerals proved far superior for computational purposes to the previous systems (it is not possible to do positional computation with roman numerals, nor did they come with the zero, another gift of India). The older letter/numbers gradually fell out of use, except in certain contexts (specifically the use of Roman numerals and Abjad numerals to mark the page numbers of the introduction of a book and the use of Roman numerals to record the publication date of books until the 19th century and the production date of motion pictures until the 1960s). However, just because the letters were no longer generally used as numbers, this does not mean that the numerical associations died out. Among poets the numbers were used to write chronograms (a word that contains a numerical value; poets frequently tried to find words with a numerical equivalent to the year of someone's death to write an elegy, for example). Theologians and mystics invested the letters and their associated numberical values with mystical significance.

ABJAD SYSTEM AND HOW IT WORKS

There are two principle variations in the Abjad system as to the value of certain letters; the Arabs of North Africa and Spain gave a different alpha-numeric order to some of the letters in the 100s than was common in the Levant and the Islamic east. However, this variation does not affect the values of letters under 100, which have always and everywhere been the same, so far as I know.

The Abjad values and their mnemonic groupings are as follows. Short vowels have no value (except in the beginning of a word, where they are necessarily accompanied by alif/hamza). Note that hamza (') and `ayn (`) are different letters with different values, as are the letters followed by dots (which would be underdots in printed versions of texts rendered in accord with the romanization system used by Shoghi Effendi for Baha'i texts). For the details of why hamza and alif have the same value (i.e., á = ' = 1), see below:



 In the maghrib (Spain and North Africa), the following variant values obtained, to wit: s.= 60, d.= 90, s= 300, z.= 800, gh= 900, sh=1000.

N.B.: Certain phonemes which require two letters to represent in the roman alphabet (e.g., Th, Kh, Dh, Gh, Sh) are each rendered by a unique letter in the Arabic alphabet.

Likewise, doubled consonants (hurúf mushaddada) are counted only once. For example, though in transliteration we write Muhammad, in the Arabic script, the doubled consonant "mm" is represented by a diacritical mark (tashdid) over a single "m", which is therefore only written once and only counted once. Hence the numerical values of Muhammad and Nabíl are identical (remember not to count the short vowels, which are any vowels in transliteration which lack the accent mark):

M + h. + mma + d

40 8 40 4 = 92

N + b + i/y + l

50 2 10 30 = 92

The word Rid.wán totals to 1057: R= 200, d.= 800, w= 6, á= 1, n= 50. Mustagháth equals M=40, s=60, t=400, gh=1000, á= 1, th= 500 for a total of 2001.

The value of kull shay' should be 361 (k= 20, l = 30, doubled or mashdudd consonants are not counted twice, sh = 300, y = 10, hamza = 1). Persians sometimes elide the final hamza when writing this word in Persian (sometimes an extra "y" is also incorrectly added), which could lead to the wrong value of 360.
Logged
Jaime
(Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
Global Moderator
Lee's Inner Circle Member
*****

Manna: 375
Online Online

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 13342


I am a genius you know!

Blog entries (1)

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2007, 09:19:34 PM »
Quote from: CSloan on August 07, 2007, 09:16:50 PM
I had to turn off my internet filter to view this post.

Too bad, I should have left it on.

Amen........There isn't a meter in existence that can measure my apathy on that subject.
Logged
Proverbs 3: 5-6  Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.

                                          
CLICK HERE ---->My New Blog
Christian Forums
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2007, 09:19:34 PM »
 Logged
goodman
Junior Member
**

Manna: 0
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 38

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2007, 09:26:32 PM »
Quote from: CSloan on August 07, 2007, 09:16:50 PM
I had to turn off my internet filter to view this post.

Too bad, I should have left it on.

Can you help me or not?
Logged
goodman
Junior Member
**

Manna: 0
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 38

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2007, 09:33:15 PM »
Quote from: Jaime on August 07, 2007, 09:19:34 PM
Quote from: CSloan on August 07, 2007, 09:16:50 PM
I had to turn off my internet filter to view this post.

Too bad, I should have left it on.

Amen........There isn't a meter in existence that can measure my apathy on that subject.

I think you have missed my initial post. Please go back and read it. You'll see the purpose of this thread. I have presented the criteria of the direct challenge of the Koran.
Logged
CSloan
Guest
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2007, 09:35:50 PM »
Quote from: goodman on August 07, 2007, 09:26:32 PM
Quote from: CSloan on August 07, 2007, 09:16:50 PM
I had to turn off my internet filter to view this post.

Too bad, I should have left it on.

Can you help me or not?


Don't waste your time.

All the mathematics and pattern prove is a intelligent demonic force created the quran.

This challenge is just ploy to get some fool to read this trash and unsuspectingly get converted.

Mohamed is just a backslidden catholic.
Logged
goodman
Junior Member
**

Manna: 0
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 38

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2007, 10:04:17 PM »
Quote from: CSloan on August 07, 2007, 09:35:50 PM
Quote from: goodman on August 07, 2007, 09:26:32 PM
Quote from: CSloan on August 07, 2007, 09:16:50 PM
I had to turn off my internet filter to view this post.

Too bad, I should have left it on.

Can you help me or not?


Don't waste your time.

Im not affraid to analyze.


Quote
All the mathematics and pattern prove is a intelligent demonic force created the quran.

I've debated a lot with Muslims. Some debates I have won for Christianity. Some I've lost. I do not hold anything against Muslims, or anyother religion. I believe all Christians should share this characteristic.

Im not sure if you have read the Koran? I have. I remember debating a Muslim on the subject of the Koran being the work of Satan, this was her answer:

When you recite the Qur’an, seek refuge in Allah from the accursed Devil. He has no power over those who believe and put their trust in their Lord. His Power is only over those who make an ally of him and those whom he causes to associate (other deities with Allah)) (An-Nahl 16:98-100).

Those who fear God, when a thought of evil from Satan assaults them, bring God to remembrance, when lo! they see (aright)!(Al-A`raf 7:201).

Quote
This challenge is just ploy to get some fool to read this trash and unsuspectingly get converted.

Are you making an admission that you cannot compose something similar? I hope not!


Quote
Mohamed is just a backslidden catholic.

HE he he, I like that one, he he he!
Logged
Christian Forums
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2007, 10:04:17 PM »
 Logged
CSloan
Guest
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2007, 10:14:04 PM »
Quote from: goodman on August 07, 2007, 10:04:17 PM
Are you making an admission that you cannot compose something similar? I hope not!

Of course I am.

The curan is no different than "The Book of the Law" that Aleister Crowley penned while demon possessed in Egypt.
Logged
goodman
Junior Member
**

Manna: 0
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 38

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2007, 10:37:01 PM »
Quote from: CSloan on August 07, 2007, 10:14:04 PM
Quote from: goodman on August 07, 2007, 10:04:17 PM
Are you making an admission that you cannot compose something similar? I hope not!

Of course I am.

I make no such admission, yet.


Quote
The curan is no different than "The Book of the Law" that Aleister Crowley penned while demon possessed in Egypt.

Can you show me where ''Aleister Crowley's book'' has a mathematical structure?


The purpose of this thread was to see if someone here could produce something similar as the Koranic verses?
Logged
CSloan
Guest
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2007, 10:45:29 PM »
Quote from: goodman on August 07, 2007, 10:37:01 PM
Quote from: CSloan on August 07, 2007, 10:14:04 PM
Quote from: goodman on August 07, 2007, 10:04:17 PM
Are you making an admission that you cannot compose something similar? I hope not!

Of course I am.

I make no such admission, yet.

I'm just admiting that I cannot spawn a book of the devil.

Quote from: goodman on August 07, 2007, 10:37:01 PM
Can you show me where ''Aleister Crowley's book'' has a mathematical structure?


The purpose of this thread was to see if someone here could produce something similar as the Koranic verses?

I can look into it for you.
Logged
Christian Forums
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2007, 10:45:29 PM »
 Logged
goodman
Junior Member
**

Manna: 0
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 38

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2007, 10:59:05 PM »
Quote from: CSloan on August 07, 2007, 10:45:29 PM


I'm just admiting that I cannot spawn a book of the devil.

Do you realize if one letter is added or deleted the whole mathematical system brakes down?


Quote
I can look into it for you.

It's not wise to make an allegation before verifying it.
Logged
CSloan
Guest
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2007, 11:45:12 PM »
Quote from: goodman on August 07, 2007, 10:59:05 PM
Do you realize if one letter is added or deleted the whole mathematical system brakes down?

Sounds like you are a advocate for this book.

Quote from: goodman on August 07, 2007, 10:59:05 PM
It's not wise to make an allegation before verifying it.

I made no allegation, I never said It had some silly structure. You asked if it did, I said I would see.
Logged
''...then produce one sura like these...''? Koran 2:23. - Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Grace-Centered Christian Forums
Bible concordance | abortion ticker | is God real? | galaga | play tetris | copter game | mini golf games | arcade | donkey kong | Christian marriage help | articles | privacy
Powered by SMF | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC