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Jimmy
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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2009, 03:31:19 PM »
DCR,

The view you present is indicative of someone who denies the existence of the homosexual "nature" of some.  I believe that there are some for whom sexual desire for the same gender is not a choice.  Just as most have been blessed with a desire for the opposite sex, there are some who have not been so fortunate and have a desire for the same sex.  That is not the case for all  who engage in the homosexual life style, but I would guess that is true for most.  In fact I doubt that sexual desire and arousal is a choice for most, whether they are homosexual or heterosexual.
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Mere Nick
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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2009, 04:03:35 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on February 25, 2009, 03:31:19 PM
DCR,

The view you present is indicative of someone who denies the existence of the homosexual "nature" of some.  I believe that there are some for whom sexual desire for the same gender is not a choice.  Just as most have been blessed with a desire for the opposite sex, there are some who have not been so fortunate and have a desire for the same sex.  That is not the case for all  who engage in the homosexual life style, but I would guess that is true for most.  In fact I doubt that sexual desire and arousal is a choice for most, whether they are homosexual or heterosexual.

How is that different from most any other sin folks deal with?  There is some desire in each of us to do something or another that isn't right. 

I appreciate jessbuds for being open with what he's dealing with.  We all deal with things that aren't right.  There's a support group for that.
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taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.
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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2009, 04:03:35 PM »
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wideeyed
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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2009, 12:16:26 AM »
But it's not bad and shouldn't be discouraged. You don't need a support group for lifestyle choices. Let us look at Cereal Vs. Toast. If the bible said "Though shalt not eat-th toast" a lot more people would eat cereal, but that doesn't change the fact that nothing's wrong with eating toast.
Also homosexuality has been observed in most species of mammal, so I'd hardly consider it "unnatural". I would provide a link verifying this, but I can't be bothered. If you need convincing Google it yourself.
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Jimmy
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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2009, 07:02:44 AM »
Quote from: Mere Nick on February 25, 2009, 04:03:35 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on February 25, 2009, 03:31:19 PM
DCR,

The view you present is indicative of someone who denies the existence of the homosexual "nature" of some.  I believe that there are some for whom sexual desire for the same gender is not a choice. Just as most have been blessed with a desire for the opposite sex, there are some who have not been so fortunate and have a desire for the same sex. That is not the case for all who engage in the homosexual life style, but I would guess that is true for most. In fact I doubt that sexual desire and arousal is a choice for most, whether they are homosexual or heterosexual.

How is that different from most any other sin folks deal with?  There is some desire in each of us to do something or another that isn't right. 

It isn't different from most any other sin that we deal with.  But there is absolutely no question but that it is dealt with differently in most of our congregations.  I am in no way condoning homosexual behavior; but I do not see any significant difference between homosexual behavior and other forms of sexual immorality.  In some ways I think that the reaction seen in so many of our congregations is a reaction against the secular attempts to legitimize the gay lifestyle as perfectly acceptable.

My point was that too many want to view homosexuality as simply a choice.  I believe that generally it is not;  certainly in a lot of cases it is not.  Homosexual behavior is a choice.  Just as any sexually immoral behavior is a choice.
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Mere Nick
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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2009, 04:54:44 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on February 26, 2009, 07:02:44 AM
Quote from: Mere Nick on February 25, 2009, 04:03:35 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on February 25, 2009, 03:31:19 PM
DCR,

The view you present is indicative of someone who denies the existence of the homosexual "nature" of some.  I believe that there are some for whom sexual desire for the same gender is not a choice. Just as most have been blessed with a desire for the opposite sex, there are some who have not been so fortunate and have a desire for the same sex. That is not the case for all who engage in the homosexual life style, but I would guess that is true for most. In fact I doubt that sexual desire and arousal is a choice for most, whether they are homosexual or heterosexual.

How is that different from most any other sin folks deal with?  There is some desire in each of us to do something or another that isn't right. 

It isn't different from most any other sin that we deal with.  But there is absolutely no question but that it is dealt with differently in most of our congregations.  I am in no way condoning homosexual behavior; but I do not see any significant difference between homosexual behavior and other forms of sexual immorality.  In some ways I think that the reaction seen in so many of our congregations is a reaction against the secular attempts to legitimize the gay lifestyle as perfectly acceptable.

My point was that too many want to view homosexuality as simply a choice.  I believe that generally it is not;  certainly in a lot of cases it is not.  Homosexual behavior is a choice.  Just as any sexually immoral behavior is a choice.

Yep.  No argument from me.
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taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.
larry2
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« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2009, 11:14:30 AM »
Off hand I would say that a person attempting to enter a place of refuge holding a revolver and pointing it at everyone, a person beating and cursing their wife, a person dragging a child they had just killed, and still cutting on them, one publicly involved in any illicit, or immoral act at the moment of entrance would not be welcomed.

If I chose to enter there, should I announce I am coming in only if you don't mind me raping your women and children? I am a practicing homo-sexual, and I enjoy doing or committing all sorts of acts considered immoral in your Bible, and will not hesitate to perform those acts in your presence. Would it be considered inhospitable to deny entrance to them?

I would then ask why it is important to announce your sin, or make a point of it when seeking refuge? The other day I sped in my car disobeying a command of God to obey the laws of my country, but I do not think I would make a point of it when seeking refuge. Anyway this is just my opinion

In Jesus' name - larry2
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« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2009, 11:14:30 AM »
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apokalupsis
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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2009, 04:41:06 PM »
I appreciate not only the question, but the politeness in it, as well as the politeness shown by everyone on this thread.  I'm impressed.  I expected a flame war. lol

I thought Jimmy made a good point. (although he's not the only one) It's true people (Christians AND non-Christians) often show a dislike for others who practice homosexuality.  Our words about love and refuge and shelter, don't always live up to our practice.  It shouldn't be that way, but it is sometimes.

By the same token, there is often a stereotype of what Christians think, and what Christians would do, and what the Bible teaches, that simply isn't true either. 

Jesus condemned adultery for instance, and very few churches condone it.  The punishment for adultery in Israel, according to the Old Testament, was death.   Nevertheless, no one accuses Christians of being adulterphobes when they condemn it.  And no one believes Christians are hoping to do horrific things to adulterers if only we finally elect Dick Cheney or something...  *shudder*

The thing is, Christians, especially Bible-Believing Christians like uh... evangelicals...(insert gasp and horror here)... have no problem saying a particular behavior is wrong, even when they themselves struggle with it.  It is NO BIG DEAL for believers to say, X is wrong and X is a sin, even when saying so points the finger right back at themselves.  We do it all the time without condemning someone all the way to hell because it is recognized that living the way God tells us to, is a growing process.  Can't just snap your fingers and be different necessarily. 

So... calling something a sin, and not approving of something, does not then mean refuge, shelter, love, and acceptance isn't available.  Nobody in church is perfect.  There isn't some test at the door.

The balance of things is difficult sometimes though. We are charged with proclaiming the Gospel of Christ and the Word of God, even it is unpopular, so accepting the practice of homosexuality as "ok" and "not wrong" in God's eyes is not something I can do, or many other believers.  Lots of things are wrong in God's eyes, and some of those things are "natural."  The Bible teaches we are naturally sinful. 

But if you want shelter and refuge, I think most Christians try to understand that everyone is a sinner to begin with.  The flip side is most Christians also believe in trying to convince a person about God and the Bible because at the end of the day, we all stand before Him.
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larry2
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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2009, 05:26:20 PM »
Quoting apokalupsis - The balance of things is difficult sometimes though. We are charged with proclaiming the Gospel of Christ and the Word of God, even it is unpopular, so accepting the practice of homosexuality as "OK" and "not wrong" in God's eyes is not something I can do, or many other believers. Lots of things are

Response - Since posting an earlier reply, I thought of Paul's instruction concerning open sin, and the congregation contending with it. Paul tells them to correct the situation in Verse 5, but later the church is told to forgive him and bring him back. I do believe this would be akin to allowing open sin practiced in our churches today. If a person admits to being a practicing homosexual, and then marries their partner would be no different to one person saying they lived in sin with their mother as that man in Corinth did.

1 Corinthians 5:1-2. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2  And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. Here they were wrong in allowing it to go on in their presence.
 
1 Corinthians 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 

Later Paul tells them to forgive him as he has suffered enough for his sin.

2 Corinthians 2:5-9.
5  But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
6  Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7  So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8  Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9  For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
 
In Jesus' name - larry2
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Andy Ryan
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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2009, 10:33:27 PM »
Quote from: apokalupsis on February 27, 2009, 04:41:06 PM
I appreciate not only the question, but the politeness in it, as well as the politeness shown by everyone on this thread.  I'm impressed.  I expected a flame war. lol

When i first saw this, i HOPED for a flame war.
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BatmanFan62
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« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2009, 03:07:19 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on February 25, 2009, 06:30:09 AM
The following is from the batman:

Quote from: BatmanFan62 on February 24, 2009, 01:05:42 AM
There are plenty of verses in the Scriptures which any homophobe could use to justify his atrocious prejudice, and many of those were dictated directly from God/Jesus himself. These verses absolutely disgust me.

In any discussion in which he participates on this forum, it would be well to remind yourselves of this statement.  It probably is an underlying basis for any statement or response by him in this forum.

I suspect that such a statement probably violates Forum rule 4.1e in spirit if not in actual fact.

Thank you, Jimmy, for alerting these people to the fact that I disagree with some passages contained in the Bible, although I suspect that this has been obvious from the beginning. I must say, I do not understand why the above statement makes you so angry. It certainly was not intended to incite anger. Why can I not dislike some parts of the Bible? I'm just being honest.

I mean, why would I like reading about how Lot's daughter's got him drunk, had sex with him, and then became impregnated by him? It's okay for me to be disgusted by that passage. Why? Because that passage is disgusting, and it describes a disgusting act. When God says, "Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces," I am allowed to be disgusted by that verse. For crying out loud, it talks about feces being spread all over a person's face! That is disgusting! When the Bible describes how David kills 200 Philistines and brings their foreskins to Saul to buy his first wife, how can I not be sickened by the thought of that? How is it wrong for me to be weirded out by that passage?

Yes, Jimmy, the Bible has disgusting things in it, and it is okay to feel repulsed by disgusting things. It's not like I'm insulting and condemning the Bible as a whole by saying that I disagree with some of its contents. We all know that the Bible includes a lot of good teachings. But, unfortunately, it also contains some strange and uncomfortable things too. It's okay for a person to dislike those parts.

Also:

Quote from: BatmanFan62 on February 24, 2009, 01:05:42 AM
There are plenty of verses in the Scriptures which any homophobe could use to justify his atrocious prejudice...

^Sadly, that is true.


However, apart from that single post, I wholeheartedly agree with everything else Jimmy has said on this thread.

Quote
I believe that there are some for whom sexual desire for the same gender is not a choice... In fact I doubt that sexual desire and arousal is a choice for most, whether they are homosexual or heterosexual.

That makes perfect sense. In fact, I don't think I could've phrased it better myself. Well said, Jimmy. Seriously.
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« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2009, 03:07:19 PM »
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zoonance
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« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2009, 03:20:59 PM »
Quote from: wideeyed on February 26, 2009, 12:16:26 AM
But it's not bad and shouldn't be discouraged. You don't need a support group for lifestyle choices. Let us look at Cereal Vs. Toast. If the bible said "Though shalt not eat-th toast" a lot more people would eat cereal, but that doesn't change the fact that nothing's wrong with eating toast.
Also homosexuality has been observed in most species of mammal, so I'd hardly consider it "unnatural". I would provide a link verifying this, but I can't be bothered. If you need convincing Google it yourself.



Course, eating the kids is also "natural"
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ex cathedra
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« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2009, 10:23:21 PM »
Quote from: wideeyed on February 20, 2009, 04:44:53 AM
While driving recently, I passed a banner which stated something along the lines of this:
"THE CHURCH SHOULD BE A SAFE PLACE FOR ALL PEOPLE TO TAKE REFUGE, WE WILL ACCEPT ANYONE WITH OPEN ARMS, AND NONE SHOULD BE AFRAID, FOR GOD IS WATCHING OVER THEM". I was overjoyed that this message was spreading the Word of The Lord to whomsoever happened to be driving on that particular road, however I made an observation.

The church does not accept anyone with open arms. It is not a safe place for all. It is selective. I am speaking (or rather typing, as it were) about homosexuals. Homosexuals, such as several of my friends, can not feel welcome in a religious community, and are shunned simply for a lifestyle choice that is theirs to make.

So why is it that the church does not accept these valid human beings and in most cases GOOD PEOPLE into their ranks? Why has the old-fashioned homophobia still wafting through the ages, in our amazing world so amazingly given to us by God, where racism is barely a problem anymore?

The REASON IS 
Because their "GOOD" people.
Jesus TRUE   church is ONLY for US sinners .
US SINNERS who need Jesus the  Savior from OUR sins.
WHY on earth would "GOOD " people need Jesus to save them from their sin's ?
 homosexuals These " GOOD "people are welcome to come into our church's to  listen but membership is only for us sinners who truly need  and want  the  savior from our sins  Jesus .

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."




1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.



Luke 18:10-14
10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

 13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

 14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."




PLEASE  take another look at SINNERS whom Jesus came to save.

1 Corinthains 6:9-11

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.



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Count me among the mightiest of sinner's,
for One must bear real and true sins to be saved. God does not save imaginary sinner's. So let your sins be strong but your faith in Jesus ,his blood bought forgiveness for your sin's ---be stronger still.
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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2009, 10:20:12 PM »
the church = God's people
God's people=  are called to not choose a livestyle of sin
the church does not =  homosexuality
homosexuality = a choice and a lifestyle of sin

Galatians 5:24 "those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."
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2 Corinthians 13:5 (ESV)
5Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2009, 10:20:12 PM »
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JamesTheLeast
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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2009, 10:46:25 PM »
Guess all good christian churches saying "All Welcome"
should change there signs to:

"All Welcome"
"Special Eucharist for NAMBLA members Thursday and Sunday 4:3pm"

Sheesh.
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transparent.tulip
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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2009, 02:13:44 PM »
Quote from: JamesTheLeast on April 09, 2009, 10:46:25 PM
Guess all good christian churches saying "All Welcome"
should change there signs to:

"All Welcome"
"Special Eucharist for NAMBLA members Thursday and Sunday 4:3pm"

Sheesh.



i think all should be welcome to come in, but the church cannot support a lifestyle of sin.
we're called to be different than the world, not caught up in the passions and desires of the flesh, but death to self. a lifestyle of sin is not death to self. anyone should be welcome to come in, but the truth should be proclaimed.
 i know someone in a lifetsyle of sin is not going to like the truth. making someone welcome to come in, doesn't mean they will feel welcome when they are in and the truth is proclaimed.
for me it is not a matter of a choice to sin as much as at it is the lost continue in sin. it's the difference between sinning and practicing sin. 2 completely different things. believers still sin, but we don't want to sin. unbelievers sin and love every minute of it.
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2 Corinthians 13:5 (ESV)
5Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
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