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Author Topic: A short dialogue I had that made a Darwinist go nuts  (Read 1739 times)
Ciscokid
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2009, 09:11:58 PM »

First of all Darwin's tree of life does not exist in the fossil record. If you were to use a botanical illustration it would look like a yard with grass. I will explain in a super post on this subject soon.
As far as the theory of evolution, I would encourage everyone to read or get some info. about the theory of irreducible . Michael Behe has a book called The Black Box which ices it when it comes to dismissing evolution theory.
I'll get all this in a post soon, I was just jumping in cause I hadn't seen Cally in Theology.


I believe Behe was at the Dover trials [Dover is not far from where I live] and he was soundly defeated.  There are literally thousands of peer-reviewed scientific journals on the theory of evolution.  How many do we have for Behe's theory of IC?  Zero.  Not one.  It's an argument from ignorance.
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Victor08
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« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2009, 12:24:01 AM »

From  http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject/Christian_Clergy/ChrClergyLtr.htm


The Clergy Letter - from American Christian clergy
          – An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science

Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible – the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark – convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.
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« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2009, 12:24:01 AM »

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Victor08
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2009, 01:17:42 AM »

There is now a HUGE shift away from evolution theory both in the U.S. and Europe. You gentlemen need to get out of the 60's, we now have overwhelming evidence for design. The strangest thing about the religion of evolution and atheism is your God, [ dirt, hope,and time ]. I will provide all the science to bury Darwins antiquated theories. Let me know if you want to learn.


You know nothing about "my God", I thought this was a discussion about Darwin and Evolution.
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Ciscokid
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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2009, 04:19:27 AM »

There is now a HUGE shift away from evolution theory both in the U.S. and Europe. You gentlemen need to get out of the 60's, we now have overwhelming evidence for design. The strangest thing about the religion of evolution and atheism is your God, [ dirt, hope,and time ]. I will provide all the science to bury Darwins antiquated theories. Let me know if you want to learn.


I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas, what HUGE shift are you talking about?  Creationists have been trying to get ID taught in the classroom on several different attempts and failed every single time.   Intelligent design isn't a scientific theory, it's simply a way to get biblical literalism [young earth] implanted into our society. 
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The Barbarian
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« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2009, 12:41:56 PM »

Quote
But it's still a salamander...

It did not turn into a bird...

If it did, evolutionary theory would be in big trouble.   It might be good if you'd look up the theory and see what it's about.   A population going from one class of vertebrate to another in a few generations would completely refute Darwin's theory.   

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Species change, yes, but they do not create different species from their changes.

That's been repeatedly observed.   Even YE creationists now admit that speciation is a fact.

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The Barbarian
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« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2009, 12:53:33 PM »

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Saying it ain't so doesn't provide proof of evolution theory. There is a letter called a dissent of Darwinism. It to is signed by thousands of PhD's from major universities through out the U.S.A. and other countries.


Hundreds.   And few of them actually have doctorates in biology.   There are theologians, electricians, chemists, etc.   Here's a way to match up your appeal to popularity:

Project Steve is lists people who accept evolution theory, who have doctorates in Biology and are named "Steve" or some variant.   There are currently well over a thousand of them.    Your list, last time I checked, had maybe one named Steve with a doctorate in something close to biology.  (Medicine, but it didn't list the degree).    So that one falls apart on inspection.

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Many European scientists are coming to the same conclusions. I'm not sure you know Behe's  theory or not, but it is one tool design theorists are using. I will provide you with a wealth of information on the subject if you like. DNA coding in itself is a blueprint that has a design.

At the Dover trial, under oath, Behe admitted that his "theory" was scientific in the same sense that astrology is scientific.    After his testimony, all the other prominent IDers set to testify, decided to skip it.   For obvious reasons.

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One thing you have to understand about Darwin, he didn't have the kind of instruments he needed to prove his theory. The electron microscope shows how simple systems like cells are mini machines which can not be built incrementally. Darwin described just this type of system himself and said," If it can be shown that a living system can be shown to be so complex that it would not be able to be formed in incremental stages my theory would fall apart".

Sounds like an interesting idea.   Show us something in biology that couldn't have formed by increments.

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Darwin couldn't see DNA or even something as simple as a bacterial flagellum.


Did you know that the bacterial flagellum is not, as Behe assumed, irreducibly complex?   Turns out that there's several versions, each simpler than the last, and one very simplified version has a different function entirely.

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You have to remember a lot of scientist got their degrees on the study of evolution theory and anything that challenges that puts their degrees and reputations on the line, so one should expect them to defend them. If they are wrong their degrees are worthless.

You may have noticed the remarkable achievements of modern biology.   Turns out those "worthless" degrees are producing new and useful information at an increasing rate.   Maybe they know something about biology you don't?

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Again there are just as many highly degreed, non-Christian, scientists who absolutely challenge evolution theory.

Interesting claim.   Show us.

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I've been studying design for years now and if you keep an open mind I am confident you will question evolution theory also.


For years, um?   Explain to us how Dembski's "explanitory filter" works.

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You might not totally change your mind but you would definitely be stunned and your views would be different. This is scientific information not religious. Not knowing your subject is ignorant.

Yeah, it is.   We'll see how you do.

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« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2009, 12:53:33 PM »

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glen
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« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2009, 05:19:35 AM »

how did marine fossils get on the top of mountain ranges across the world?
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Jimmy
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« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2009, 06:21:25 AM »

how did marine fossils get on the top of mountain ranges across the world?

The mountains at some time in the past were ocean bottoms.  Google plate tectonics and go from there.
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Jimmy
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« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2009, 06:23:45 AM »

There is now a HUGE shift away from evolution theory both in the U.S. and Europe. You gentlemen need to get out of the 60's, we now have overwhelming evidence for design. The strangest thing about the religion of evolution and atheism is your God, [ dirt, hope,and time ]. I will provide all the science to bury Darwins antiquated theories. Let me know if you want to learn.


I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas, what HUGE shift are you talking about?  Creationists have been trying to get ID taught in the classroom on several different attempts and failed every single time.   Intelligent design isn't a scientific theory, it's simply a way to get biblical literalism [young earth] implanted into our society. 

Evolution isn't a scientific theory either.  It's simply a way of explaining the historical fossil record.
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Ciscokid
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« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2009, 09:45:30 AM »

I have to more careful myself about using the word evolution when I mean Darwinism.
Jimmy, I am not a young earther either. I have read some of your posts and believe we are alike in thought on many issues.
It is the Darwinian explanation, including the tree of life which is not represented in the fossil record.


Many people define Darwinism to mean nothing different from evolution.  You should probably define exactly what you mean by it.  I don't think there are many scientists out there that claim Darwin was absolutely correct about everything he ever said. 
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« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2009, 09:45:30 AM »

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Jimmy
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« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2009, 09:48:51 AM »

Show us something in biology that couldn't have formed by increments.

Life; living organisms

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Wrongway
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« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2009, 06:17:18 AM »


Tod Said -> A probability of less than 10 to the 50th power is considered a complete impossibility.

Isn't this backwards ? Shouldn't it read -> "A probability of more than 10 to the 50th power is considered a complete impossibility." ??

Those numbers are just crazy to try and wrap my mind around.. It's like trying to encompass the number of square miles in the solar system...

Including Uranus...<snicker>...

[Beavis' Voice... heheheh... he said Uranus....heheheh]


W-W


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« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2010, 03:05:51 AM »

Well most of the replies were laced with pretty bad language so I'll skip to the interesting parts:

Me: "If bacteria needed to evolve to survive, then why is bacteria still around? And yet everything dies anyway. If an organism MUST evolve for survival purposes, then why do the organisms supposedly inferior at surviving (ex: bacteria) still exist, and yet more evolved species are better at surviving in the same sorts of habitats.

I don't know why this other person stated that one MUST evolve to survive...it's flat out wrong.  Ants haven't evolved much over quite a vast period of time [hundreds of thousands of years?]. 
Nor have things in the ocean changed much either =) and anyway, if evolution exists, it's absolutely logical to assume there is a God controlling the evolution.
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Deut 4:29-31 "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all of your heart and soul. When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the LORD your God and obey His voice (for the LORD your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of our fathers which He swore to them.

Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with CHRIST and it is no longer I WHO LIVE but CHRIST LIVES IN ME, and this life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
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« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2010, 03:05:51 AM »

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A short dialogue I had that made a Darwinist go nuts - Pages: 1 2 [3] Go Up Print 
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