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Author Topic: Darwin and Hitler  (Read 2652 times)
Jaime
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« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2009, 07:55:32 AM »

To me, a Creator capabale of creating this universe CAN do it in accordance with or in opposition to any and all laws of science. Whether that IS how it happened, I can't say.
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« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2009, 08:07:07 AM »

To me, a Creator capabale of creating this universe CAN do it in accordance with or in opposition to any and all laws of science. Whether that IS how it happened, I can't say.

Perhaps you can't say and I would tend to agree with you on that, but many others seem to think they can.  My question is why assume one way when the data so comprehensively suggests the other way.
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« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2009, 08:07:07 AM »

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Ciscokid
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« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2009, 08:16:28 AM »

If anyone is trying to show a link between evolution and crimes against humanity, you will fail miserably.  Humans have been butchering humans for quite some time, well before Darwin even existed.  What people are trying to do is demonize something they either don't understand or they simply fear.  

Evolutionary theory does not make someone wake up one morning and decide to kill millions of people.  

What I do find ironic is that the very people criticizing the actions of Pol Pot et al, hold high regard for a book that speaks of God's chosen people murdering their pagan neighbors, every man, woman and yes even the babes.  Well they did save the virgin girls of course, they didn't want to go to sleep in a cold bed that night I suppose.  
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« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2009, 08:19:15 AM »

What I do find ironic is that the very people criticizing the actions of Pol Pot et al, hold high regard for a book that speaks of God's chosen people murdering their pagan neighbors, every man, woman and yes even the babes.  Well they did save the virgin girls of course, they didn't want to go to sleep in a cold bed that night I suppose. 

I seriously doubt Pol Pot, Hitler and Stalin were operating under explicit commands of God.
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« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2009, 08:19:57 AM »

What I do find ironic is that the very people criticizing the actions of Pol Pot et al, hold high regard for a book that speaks of God's chosen people murdering their pagan neighbors, every man, woman and yes even the babes.  Well they did save the virgin girls of course, they didn't want to go to sleep in a cold bed that night I suppose. 

I seriously doubt Pol Pot, Hitler and Stalin were operating under explicit commands of God.


I don't know, but the events I mentioned above were direct orders from God to Moses. 
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« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2009, 08:21:00 AM »

That is truly ironic.  I am not sure that I even believe evolution is what God used.  But it is truly sad that Christians would use irrational argument in an attempt at opposition.  Rather than strengthen the argument for the God of the Bible, it adds fuel to the fire of the nonbeliever.  There are enough real questions concerning evolution and all that is taught as evolution to give solid reasoning to doubt the truth it.  But when arguments such as yours here and those in the OP are used to rebut evolution, it only diminishes any argument you make in favor of our Creator God.

I don't understand what you are calling irrational about this argument. This topic has little to nothing to do with God, the Bible, or the Gospel, but yet you keep trying to make this into a Christianity vs. evolution discussion when it is anything but. What I do find humorous is no matter when and where the topic of evolution is discussed, there you are. Jimmy the champion of Darwinism; the voice of the mute evolutionist. And now you say you don't even know if you believe in it, now that's ironic.

Have a good morning.

Charles, I am not trying to make this into a Christianity vs. evolution.  What I am pointing out to you is the fallacy in logic that you are bringing to the discussion concerning evolution.

I have never ever championed Darwinism.  I have never ever even said that I believe in evolution.  You have simply jumped to that conclusion.  The only thing that I have done in regards to evolution is to try to show the fallacy of so much of the argument given to discredit it.  I have also actively tried to show the fallacies of the other side as well.  The so-called Christian approach to discrediting evolution is absolutely terrible, scientifically, philosophically and theologically.  It is a shame on the community.  I would hate to think how many technically astute people have been put off of God and His message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ by the idiocy of much of the argument against evolution.

The irony here is that how and what you have assumed in reading my posts is right up there with how and what you have assumed in reading anything about evolution.
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« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2009, 08:21:00 AM »

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Jaime
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« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2009, 08:26:54 AM »

To me, a Creator capabale of creating this universe CAN do it in accordance with or in opposition to any and all laws of science. Whether that IS how it happened, I can't say.

Perhaps you can't say and I would tend to agree with you on that, but many others seem to think they can.  My question is why assume one way when the data so comprehensively suggests the other way.

How does one correlate date concerning a Creator capable of bypassing laws of science? I think the debate should be is there a Creator or not, HOW will always be unknowable!
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« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2009, 08:50:27 AM »

To me, a Creator capabale of creating this universe CAN do it in accordance with or in opposition to any and all laws of science. Whether that IS how it happened, I can't say.

Perhaps you can't say and I would tend to agree with you on that, but many others seem to think they can.  My question is why assume one way when the data so comprehensively suggests the other way.

How does one correlate date concerning a Creator capable of bypassing laws of science? I think the debate should be is there a Creator or not, HOW will always be unknowable!

Why should it be unknowable.  Perhaps it is, but why do you assume that?  Why do you think that He could not or did not do what He did in a discoverable and understandible way?

I agree that the debate should be on whether there is a Creator or not.  But the approach taken by the so-called conservative Christian view is almost completely counter to the objective of proving or even suggesting there is a Creator.  The arguments are counter productive.  They make no sense whatever to the nonbeliever.  Where is the reasoning in that approach? Such an approach only confirms his nonbelief.

I have pointed out before that, for the nonbeliever, if what you have to say about the physical realm that we can see, evaluate and measure is so obviously wrong, how can you be expected to be right about the spiritual realm that we can't see, evaluate or measure?
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« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2009, 08:55:47 AM »


Why should it be unknowable.  Perhaps it is, but why do you assume that?  Why do you think that He could not or did not do what He did in a discoverable and understandible way?

I agree that the debate should be on whether there is a Creator or not.  But the approach taken by the so-called conservative Christian view is almost completely counter to the objective of proving or even suggesting there is a Creator.  The arguments are counter productive.  They make no sense whatever to the nonbeliever.  Where is the reasoning in that approach? Such an approach only confirms his nonbelief.

I have pointed out before that, for the nonbeliever, if what you have to say about the physical realm that we can see, evaluate and measure is so obviously wrong, how can you be expected to be right about the spiritual realm that we can't see, evaluate or measure?


I'm not just saying this because we tend to agree on some things at least with this thread [I guarantee we don't see eye to eye across the board ;) ] , but this post is spot on.

The anti-science hard line YEC movement has done a lot of damage to the image of Christianity, at least to those who care about such topics. 

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Jaime
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« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2009, 12:07:24 PM »

To me, a Creator capabale of creating this universe CAN do it in accordance with or in opposition to any and all laws of science. Whether that IS how it happened, I can't say.

Perhaps you can't say and I would tend to agree with you on that, but many others seem to think they can.  My question is why assume one way when the data so comprehensively suggests the other way.

How does one correlate date concerning a Creator capable of bypassing laws of science? I think the debate should be is there a Creator or not, HOW will always be unknowable!

Why should it be unknowable.  Perhaps it is, but why do you assume that?  Why do you think that He could not or did not do what He did in a discoverable and understandible way?

I agree that the debate should be on whether there is a Creator or not.  But the approach taken by the so-called conservative Christian view is almost completely counter to the objective of proving or even suggesting there is a Creator.  The arguments are counter productive.  They make no sense whatever to the nonbeliever.  Where is the reasoning in that approach? Such an approach only confirms his nonbelief.

I have pointed out before that, for the nonbeliever, if what you have to say about the physical realm that we can see, evaluate and measure is so obviously wrong, how can you be expected to be right about the spiritual realm that we can't see, evaluate or measure?

I don't know if he created in 6 literal days some 6000 years ago. If he did, It would contradict science, and that's OK for me a Christian. It probably isn't OK for the non-Christian scientist.

Heck the resurrection of Christ defies all known science, so someone bent on pure scientific proof could not be a Christian.
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« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2009, 12:07:24 PM »

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Jimmy
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« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2009, 02:00:00 PM »

To me, a Creator capabale of creating this universe CAN do it in accordance with or in opposition to any and all laws of science. Whether that IS how it happened, I can't say.

Perhaps you can't say and I would tend to agree with you on that, but many others seem to think they can.  My question is why assume one way when the data so comprehensively suggests the other way.

How does one correlate date concerning a Creator capable of bypassing laws of science? I think the debate should be is there a Creator or not, HOW will always be unknowable!

Why should it be unknowable.  Perhaps it is, but why do you assume that?  Why do you think that He could not or did not do what He did in a discoverable and understandible way?

I agree that the debate should be on whether there is a Creator or not.  But the approach taken by the so-called conservative Christian view is almost completely counter to the objective of proving or even suggesting there is a Creator.  The arguments are counter productive.  They make no sense whatever to the nonbeliever.  Where is the reasoning in that approach? Such an approach only confirms his nonbelief.

I have pointed out before that, for the nonbeliever, if what you have to say about the physical realm that we can see, evaluate and measure is so obviously wrong, how can you be expected to be right about the spiritual realm that we can't see, evaluate or measure?

I don't know if he created in 6 literal days some 6000 years ago. If he did, It would contradict science, and that's OK for me a Christian. It probably isn't OK for the non-Christian scientist.

Heck the resurrection of Christ defies all known science, so someone bent on pure scientific proof could not be a Christian.

Miracles do not contradict science.  Miracles are outside of science. So a creation in 6 literal days some 6000 years ago does not in itself contradict science.  But in fact the physical data, cosmological data, astronomical data, etc. all contradict a creation in 6 literal days some 6000 years ago.  Some will postulate that God created it in 6 literal days some 6000 years ago and just made everything appear as though some 10+Billion years have passed.  That is within God's ability to be sure, and there is no way to prove it one way or another, but it does seem strange that such deception would be placed there by God.  It is His science that presents us with the data that indicates the age and size of the universe.  After all, how do we know that the universe is 10+Billion light years across?  It could be only a few million miles and God just makes it appear bigger.  But again such deception would be strange indeed coming from God who is truth.
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« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2009, 02:01:20 PM »


I don't know if he created in 6 literal days some 6000 years ago. If he did, It would contradict science, and that's OK for me a Christian. It probably isn't OK for the non-Christian scientist.

Heck the resurrection of Christ defies all known science, so someone bent on pure scientific proof could not be a Christian.


The difference is that we have physical evidence to measure against with regard to the age of the earth.  We can't say the same about the death and resurrection of Christ.

The polar ice caps alone defy any idea of a 'young' earth.
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Charles Sloan
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« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2009, 05:58:47 PM »

The polar ice caps alone defy any idea of a 'young' earth.

I would like to hear how the ice caps defy a young earth.
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« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2009, 05:58:47 PM »

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« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2009, 07:49:13 PM »

The polar ice caps alone defy any idea of a 'young' earth.

I would like to hear how the ice caps defy a young earth.

If you believe the global flood story in the Bible, the polar ice caps should show no more than 4400 years of precipitation [and that is only if ice started to form immediately after the flood].   Ice core samples show a history of precipitation well beyond 10K years nevermind 4-5K.  
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Charles Sloan
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« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2009, 09:09:40 PM »

The polar ice caps alone defy any idea of a 'young' earth.

I would like to hear how the ice caps defy a young earth.

If you believe the global flood story in the Bible, the polar ice caps should show no more than 4400 years of precipitation [and that is only if ice started to form immediately after the flood].   Ice core samples show a history of precipitation well beyond 10K years nevermind 4-5K. 

Those rings in core samples are not annual seasons (winter/summer), they are simply periodic temperature shifts (warm/cold).

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i3/greenland.asp

"Recent scientific revelations confirm that Antarctica has been under ice and snow for only about 10,000 years. Snow/thaw/freeze cycles encapsulated in 2 mile thick ice core samples were once thought to be annual rings, suggesting that ice has been there for 175,000 years. However, evidence from Greenland suggests otherwise. The "Lost Squadron", American planes ditched on Greenland during WW2, were found in 1986 under 267 ' of snow and ice. That's forty feet per year. At that rate of deposit, Greenland may have been ice free only 400 years ago."

http://www.2012online.org/2012research/iceage/

The evidence for the ice being much less than 10,000 years old, their conclusion is erroneous because of their preconceived notions about the age of the earth. But just looking at the facts in the recovery of P-38 the ice caps are much younger than commonly reported from evolutionist.

But I fail to see what this has to do with the topic.
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