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Author Topic: Geocentrism and the Fall  (Read 1933 times)
Barabbas
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« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2009, 11:17:55 AM »

   Well, I am not too sure exactly what all this proves…

Quote:  “The difficulty with this world view is that it is at odds with the modern current world view.  The Ptolemaic notion that all of creation (which was not very big in this historic view) revolves around the earth - has been replaced by a modern view of the earth as merely one planet that revolves around a sun that just happens to be one sun amongst billions of suns in a galaxy among billions of galaxies in a incomprehensibly large universe.”

Answer:  So what?  No where in the Bible is there a verse that says the Earth is/was the only world in the universe.  Even the ancients know five of the nine planets.  They probably did not realize that they were “planets” as such, but knew they differed from the other stars.


Of course not everyone has a problem with this outlook - as it doesn't seem to be a problem for you.  But your just fooling yourself if you think this isn't problem for others.

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Answer:  There were plenty of “other civilizations” even during Christ’s life on Earth that had never heard of Him.  China was know to the ancient Romans.  That is exactly the reason we are to “go and tell…”  Even if China and Japan were “sophisticated” during Jesus’ life, that in no way “erodes” the Bible…in any way.  That is a huge misstatement.
Sure, but again it is a problem for some groups who believe that the disciples went "to all the world".  The Mormons built a whole mythology around this problem.

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Answer:  I doubt very seriously that T-Rex puts the Bible out of business.  And, I might add, neither does Galileo’s invention; if anything, it enhances God and the Bible.  And there have been people thru out history who thought the Bible was “narrow-minded”; it did not start in 2009.

Right again ... but it has tended to alter traditional views of the Bible.  Among most Christians before the enlightenment virtually all thought of the world and the universe being no more than 7000 years old.  Today only fundamentalists tend to think that way.

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Answer:  I cannot determine why the “collapse” of an earth-centered theology has caused the collapse of Biblical theology.  It is self-evident that the Fall happened; if a person does not believe that it occurred…fine.  He would not be the first.  If he does not believe in Christ’s redemption, that is ok too…there were people at the foot of the cross that did not believe it.

As far apologetics goes…just present the Biblical facts.  There is no where in the Bible where it says that you have to have a PHD in Apologetics to witness to people.  Now, a good general knowledge is great…but not required.  Anyone who brings up dinosaurs, aliens, etc., is just trying to cloud the issue; I have heard people ask my pastor on visitation “where did Cain get his wife” in an effort to confuse him, hoping he would leave.  It never worked.

It has no bearing on the Bible theology of the Fall or the Redemption or Christianity in general about dinos, Martians, or any other topic someone may try to use to discredit them.  No where is a verse that says someone has to know about all this to witness to people.
   
Of course that is a perfectly legitimate position - rely on a kind of fideism and just teach the word.  I think wrestling with these kind of issues are legitimate though. 
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Barabbas
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« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2009, 11:30:10 AM »

Quote:  “ The collapse of geocentrism has led to a modification of teaching within most churches.  The collapse has also led to certain modern theories like evolution and modern cosmological models that are alien (but maybe not incompatible???) to the biblical model.  In earlier times before Galileo when the earth was seen as central to creation there was perfect compatibility between the notion of the Fall and the Redemption by Christ.  The whole universe was perverted by Adam's disobedience, and the whole of creation was redeemed by Christ.

In my talking with non-Christians... this seems to be a chief stumbling block.  The idea of the universality of the Fall and the universality of Christ's redemption is seen as increasingly provincial and irrelevant to the picture of the way things actually are. 

Is there anyway around this or are we just to shake the dust from our feet and move on to cultivate more uneducated fields?  I find this to be the hardest issue to approach in apologetics.  Any thoughts?

Yes, quit teaching the heresy of "the fall" as having any impact on the whole of the universe.  It is only mankind that has been directly affected.  And even there it is far less than many would expouse.  Otherwise any serious student of the sciences will simply reject what you have to say about God, his existance and his purposes.

Ok ... I have.  I think a lot of Christians have.  We can't intellectually hold to that position in light of modern discoveries.  Death existed before the fall at least in a literal sense.  But I believe that modifying the traditional view of the Fall also modifies other traditional views of Christ.  Paul's language of the Fall and the universal redemption and sovereignty of Christ seem to be closely tied together.

Why do you think some of the latest polls of Christians have stated that they don't believe Christ is the only path to heaven? (or salvation, or whatever view you may have)  I believe it is largely because people have a broader world outlook.  If you take away the universal message of Paul and the fall of man, it seems to me to be a mere step to also take away the universal message of Christ's saving power. 
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« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2009, 11:30:10 AM »

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Jimmy
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« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2009, 12:33:25 PM »

I guess I need to have you tell me what your idea of universal redemption is.

But in any case, I fail to see how holding on to a false concept of creation, the effect of the fall, etc., can possibly add credibilty and strength to the message of the saving power of the gospel.

There are several reasons for believers to begin to question the gospel message.  But I really don't think truth is the reason for any significant departure.
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2009, 03:39:32 PM »

Personally I believe the story in Genesis is a fictional story with divine truths, but I'm fully aware that that belief is based on a modern outlook.
That's interesting.  I hold the same belief, but it's based on an ancient outlook.
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« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2009, 05:34:03 PM »

Personally I believe the story in Genesis is a fictional story with divine truths, but I'm fully aware that that belief is based on a modern outlook.
That's interesting.  I hold the same belief, but it's based on an ancient outlook.


Do you mind explaining your viewpoint further?  I'm interested in this topic and I'd love to hear your viewpoint.  Thanks.
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Barabbas
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« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2009, 02:21:30 PM »

I guess I need to have you tell me what your idea of universal redemption is.

But in any case, I fail to see how holding on to a false concept of creation, the effect of the fall, etc., can possibly add credibilty and strength to the message of the saving power of the gospel.

There are several reasons for believers to begin to question the gospel message.  But I really don't think truth is the reason for any significant departure.

When I mean universal redemption - I guess I'm talking about the universal nature of the Son of God.  The man/God Jesus Christ has universal impact and relevance for the entire creation.  Jesus Christ is part of the Trinity for instance, not just an offspring of God that was made Lord over creation of just this world or man(earth).  The first chapter of John solidifies this concept just as Paul does. 

Liberal theology has tried to modify this view I think in light of modern discoveries ... but as a consequence it has taken away much of the power of the original message.
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« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2009, 02:21:30 PM »

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Barabbas
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« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2009, 02:33:12 PM »

Personally I believe the story in Genesis is a fictional story with divine truths, but I'm fully aware that that belief is based on a modern outlook.
That's interesting.  I hold the same belief, but it's based on an ancient outlook.

I'm not sure I agree that the literal meaning of the text was thought of as fictional by ancient interpreters ... but only that it was the least relevant.  In other words there was a physical (literal) meaning to the text, but there was also a spiritual meaning (allegorical, typological) meaning to the text that was more important. 

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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2009, 03:57:29 PM »

Personally I believe the story in Genesis is a fictional story with divine truths, but I'm fully aware that that belief is based on a modern outlook.
That's interesting.  I hold the same belief, but it's based on an ancient outlook.

I'm not sure I agree that the literal meaning of the text was thought of as fictional by ancient interpreters ... but only that it was the least relevant.  In other words there was a physical (literal) meaning to the text, but there was also a spiritual meaning (allegorical, typological) meaning to the text that was more important. 
Well that depends on how ancient you want to get, and where you want to place it.

The Dark Ages church maintained that the events were literal.  Period.

The early church fathers, writing ca 100AD, certainly saw this as a series of literal events.  However, they also saw a framework by which things written in the Bible might be applied directly to their lives more or less intact, because, essentially, whatever God says constitutes reality.  Thus events only unfold that match up with things that God has said.  Look at the way the NT quotes the OT for evidence.  "Out of Egypt I have called my son" is a good place to start.

The Essenes writing in the century before them shared their view of applied Scripture, but weren't as rigid about the literality of the Scriptures, recognizing in some of them some political machinations.  Dead Sea Scrolls.

The Pharisees of Hillel and Shammai were, despite being opposed to it in name, influenced greatly by Greek Philosophy.  Their pursuit was mainly for applications of the stories of the Bible, not for history.  That said, they regarded the stories as true.

The Jews living in Egypt another hundred years prior to that saw ALL the events of the Bible as not-literal.  Or at least, they believed that wherever the events might or might not have actually literally occurred was completely unimportant.  They saw the Good Book as being primarily a book of lessons, morality tales, spiritual meanings waiting to be uncovered for mental applications, not physical ones.  See Philo.

The Hasmonean period is largely controlled by the Saducees, who were extreme minimalists, accepting only the Torah as Scripture, and only in its most literal application.  They were also incredibly corrupt, and borderline agnostics, if not outright atheists.  Many were Hellenists, and followed the Greek system rather than the God of their Fathers.

Go back further, to the captivity, and the Jews were in a state in which they were trying to reconnect with Scriptures they had long ignored, but were without a lot of the background information they needed to understand it.  They supplied the context out of their pagan neighbors mythos and history, and came up with some truly strange interpretations of what was going on in Genesis. Check out the Talmuds.  And the book of Daniel is written in this time too.

Before that, the periods of monarchy are defined by their apostacy.  With an exception for Josiah's emphasis on law-keeping, the whole period going back to Solomon is entirely ignorant of even the existence of the Torah.  Much of the rest of the Bible doesn't exist before this point, and was actually coming into existence during this period.

What they did have were prophets, and those they killed.  What the prophets believed...you can read them for yourself...but they have a full understanding of the geography behind Genesis.  That necessitates an outlook on the entire book as being less a history than an object lesson dealing with where people should live, how they should earn their living, and what God requires from his people.  The prophets are, almost unanimously, against the kings, whose demesnes were built in/on cities, fueled by commerce/trade/consumption, and utilizing a hired priesthood to opiate their masses, and define their acts of service to the gods for them.

Solomon is kind of his own time period, as he went out and clearly learned and understood Genesis, and then did everything exactly the opposite of what it says, and led the whole country into apostacy by following the Canaanite/Phoenician mode of life rather than that which God had laid down to them.  I don't have a good answer for that, except to note that the kings were given to Israel as a punishment, so perhaps that was divinely ordained - maybe even a conscious effort to do so on the part of Solomon.

What can I say about David's reign?  He altered the canon of the book, propagandized the kingdom, almost entirely supplanted the existing priesthood with his own puppet priesthood, eventually claimed priestly privileges for the monarchy, and...every one of those things was ordained and blessed by God.  He also managed to shepherd the people without abusing them, put a real emphasis on law-keeping, and didn't make forbidden treaties with the Canaanites.  His undoing was his success at battle and his eye for women.  He almost sits above Biblical interpretation, it is more like he makes it say what he wants than interprets what it already says.

In fact, any farther back than this and we meet the same problem.  Society has largely become so classed that those at the top are defining what is or isn't real for the lower classes.  And I don't mean by interpretation - I mean by editing.

Jarrod
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Barabbas
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« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2009, 09:37:25 PM »

Thanks Jarrod.  I enjoyed reading that.
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Victorious
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« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2009, 11:05:01 PM »


... We don't need to prove God scientifically to anyone; we are saved by grace through faith. What happened to their measure of faith God gives every man in Romans 12:3?

In Jesus' name - larry2



Except that not EVERY man has a measure of faith:

"Finally, brethren, pray for us that the word of the Lord will spread rapidly and be glorified, just as it did also with you; and that we will be rescued from perverse and evil men; for not all have faith." (2Th 3:1-2 NASB)

Paul is speaking specifically to believers in the following verses:

"For through the grace given to me I say to EVERYONE AMONG YOU, not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." (Rom 12:3 NASB)

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« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2009, 11:05:01 PM »

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