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Howdyboyalan
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« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2009, 09:38:50 AM »

Previous post was glitching....

Some scientists believe life originated on earth more than once spontaneously, and that somewhere, bacteria exists that wasnt gobbled up by existing life that is not related to the any of the life registered.

Intelligent design raises no good scientific questions about the process of development of life on earth. It's current manifestation in the design institute etc contributes nothing to scientific advancement. For ID to be relevant, it needs to shed its scientific defintion, because it is simply not a science. The only gap left in biological knowledge is how the cell was created, ID as an explantion for the diversity of life is to br frank, rubbish. If the intelligent design movement PROVED that the cell can only be created, that its spontaneous random development with NO EXTERNAL FORCE was impossible, then it would be respected, and if they pursued that line of research, it would be more respectable.
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Jimmy
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« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2009, 10:07:01 AM »

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ID and YEC are not the same thing.  The evolutionist tends to want to make them the same because it is easy to debunk YE types but not so with ID.  The main reason I believe that they reject ID is not so much because it ultimately looks to God as the initiator, but because it continues to ask very legitimate questions which the evolutionist can not answer.

You say you know little of biology then come out with a statement like that. How do you speak with such authority on the matter then? I know of not one good question ID asks of evolution.

How about, "How did it all begin?"  or "What is the probability of life originating from inanimate chemicals?"

I am not sure what you are getting at.  You believe that ID and YEC are the same?  Strange.

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That is correct.  And I think even the most dedicated evolutionist understands now that the chances of spontaneous initiation of life on earth is so small as to be zero.

This is not true. I believe god provided the spark, and since he knows all he knew how to create that spark, and the mechanimsms to set the ball in motion. There are now several incidences of cell like structures forming in the lab in certain conditions, proteins etc.  Scientists thing we can create life from scratch within 20 years. (which of course still requires a designer)

There is no God directed spark in any article on evolution that I have read.   If you have not seen the drift away from life having originated on earth to life having originated somewhere else and than being transported to earth, then I think you have missed a big part of much of the more recent discussions.  By the way, it is not the right kind of spark that is missing from the equation here.

Take a look at the following:

     http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Evolution_Rationality_vs._Randomness.asp
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« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2009, 10:07:01 AM »

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Jimmy
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« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2009, 10:12:52 AM »

Previous post was glitching....

Some scientists believe life originated on earth more than once spontaneously, and that somewhere, bacteria exists that wasnt gobbled up by existing life that is not related to the any of the life registered.

Intelligent design raises no good scientific questions about the process of development of life on earth. It's current manifestation in the design institute etc contributes nothing to scientific advancement. For ID to be relevant, it needs to shed its scientific defintion, because it is simply not a science. The only gap left in biological knowledge is how the cell was created, ID as an explantion for the diversity of life is to br frank, rubbish. If the intelligent design movement PROVED that the cell can only be created, that its spontaneous random development with NO EXTERNAL FORCE was impossible, then it would be respected, and if they pursued that line of research, it would be more respectable.

Quite frankly, the lack of respect given the legitimate field of ID arises primarily from the YEC crowd grabbing ahold of it and claiming it as an anchor.  Essentially every judicial defeat of ID being presented in the Schools here in the US has come about because those bringing suit in favor of ID were using it as a shield hoping to obscure the fact that they were really promoting YEC.
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Howdyboyalan
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« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2009, 10:17:28 AM »

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I am not sure what you are getting at.  You believe that ID and YEC are the same?  Strange.

I am not, but regardless, both OEC and YEC advocate the placement of creatures how they are on the earth. It is the same principle when talking about evolution.

Quote
There is no God directed spark in any article on evolution that I have read.   If you have not seen the drift away from life having originated on earth to life having originated somewhere else and than being transported to earth, then I think you have missed a big part of much of the more recent discussions.


It is only a hypothesis, life could have originated on earth with more than enough time to develop either way once the first replicator was there. Give me some time on this protein thing
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Philadiddle
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« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2009, 10:21:15 PM »

The video said that scientists think chance made the first cells.  This is inaccurate because chance isn't a cause, it is a measure of how predictable an outcome is.

That is correct.  And I think even the most dedicated evolutionist understands now that the chances of spontaneous initiation of life on earth is so small as to be zero.
I do not think you understand how chance and statistics work when applied to the real world.   We could look at the chances of you being born.  For the right sperm and egg to come together to make you the chance are 1 in millions.  When we multiply this by the chances of your parents both being born, and then you being born, we are trying to solve for P(A|B|C) where A and B are your parents being born and C is you.  These kind of statistical formulas, when spread out over many generations, get numbers so small it's statistically impossible for you to be here.  But you are here, so the formula is moot.

One other thing to think about is that the chances of winning the lottery are 1 in 70,000,000 and yet, almost every week, someone wins it.  That's because the sample space for which the lottery takes place is relatively large, and someone is bound to win it.  Likewise, with the earth being as large as it is, with the right chemicals, and a timeline that all together provide a huge sample space, abiogenesis is actually likely to take place. 

Evolution explains all of the facts and observations about life.  It makes useful predictions that have been repeatedly tested and have been shown to be true, and it has practical uses in many areas of science including medicine.
I could be wrong, but it is not evolution which you are describing there.  Rather it is simply good solid biological science.  That is not the evolution that supposedly has produced man from a single cell life form.
Evolution is the shifting of the allelic frequency in a population, which is an observed fact.  Speciation occurs over time when a smaller group becomes isolated from a larger group, which is an observed fact.  Genetic drift, point mutations, gene shuffling, insertions deletions, gene duplication etc are all mechanisms that drive this and are all observed fact.  It is also a fact that life on earth is different in different geological eras, completely different.  Organisms fit into a nested hierarchy physiologically, genetically, morphologically, as well as the fossils, junk DNA etc.  This fact is important in medicine because when someone is sick and their blood work is sent to a lab, the disease is placed in the tree of life based on it's genetic features.  This isn't to say it's a variation of something we already know of, it's to find what it is closely related to.  If everything was created separately and shared DNA from a common designer, we would expect to see closed loops when comparing genetics, instead of the branching tree we observe.  Because of this tree of life, we know what new diseases are most closely related to and we know where to start looking for cures based on the closest relatives.

So please do 2 things for me.  Explain what mechanism that makes up a part of the theory of evolution isn't a fact of nature, and secondly, explain what practical application ID has in any field of science.

The main reason I believe that they reject ID is not so much because it ultimately looks to God as the initiator, but because it continues to ask very legitimate questions which the evolutionist can not answer.
What questions does ID ask that the evolutionist cannot answer?  Are you aware that a great deal of theists, including myself, accept evolution and reject ID for it's poor approach to science?  ID is rejected not because it has a looming existential inference, but because it tries to explain everything by explaining nothing. 

Yes our education systems are very poor.  But it is not because they have failed to teach evolution as a science.  The debate is because they have taught it as science.  They have treated a plausible explanation as fact.  Moreover, any alternative plausible explanation is rejected.  They hypothesize that life on earth began  spontaneously outside of earth even though there is absolutely no evidence of.   Note that they have, for the most part, given up on the idea that life began spontaneously on earth.
Evolution is as much a fact as gravity.  It is a fact that masses are drawn together, the theory of relativity explains what drives this to take place.  It is a fact that we evolved, it is the theory of evolution that explains what causes it.  There is more evidence for evolution then for relativity, yet nobody argues relativity.  There are better models for evolutionary biology then for quantum theory, yet no one hops on a religious forum and debates whether or not the images in textbooks of molecules should be in there because they are so far removed from what reality is.

The reason people object to evolution is rooted in religious beliefs, the more I have this conversation with people, the more I find it drifts towards God's plan and sin etc.  ID is a religious movement under a politically correct costume.  It is not a science.
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Ciscokid
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« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2009, 08:59:21 AM »

A designer sounds pretty complex...who designed the designer?
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« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2009, 08:59:21 AM »

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Howdyboyalan
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« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2009, 09:03:44 AM »

A designer sounds pretty complex...who designed the designer?


 Dropping jaw in shock! Good grief!! I never thought of that! I renounce my faith... We're not worthy! praise the skyfrog.
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Ciscokid
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« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2009, 09:09:24 AM »



 Dropping jaw in shock! Good grief!! I never thought of that! I renounce my faith... We're not worthy! praise the skyfrog.


I'm partial to the flying spaghetti monster.
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Howdyboyalan
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« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2009, 09:12:15 AM »



 Dropping jaw in shock! Good grief!! I never thought of that! I renounce my faith... We're not worthy! praise the skyfrog.


I'm partial to the flying spaghetti monster.

Wow, you really are a rather stereotypical atheist arent you. Do you feel all clever now  you have just finished the God delusion?
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Ciscokid
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« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2009, 09:30:13 AM »



Wow, you really are a rather stereotypical atheist arent you. Do you feel all clever now  you have just finished the God delusion?


I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from, I was just adding my thoughts to the topic.  I'd like to discuss things but I'm not interested in trying to insult anyone or vice versa.
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« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2009, 09:30:13 AM »

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Howdyboyalan
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« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2009, 09:33:53 AM »



Wow, you really are a rather stereotypical atheist arent you. Do you feel all clever now  you have just finished the God delusion?


I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from, I was just adding my thoughts to the topic.  I'd like to discuss things but I'm not interested in trying to insult anyone or vice versa.

I am not trying to be hostile. I am just winding you up.
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Ciscokid
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« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2009, 09:44:16 AM »

I am not trying to be hostile. I am just winding you up.

Oh ok cool, I thought you were serious   Tipping hat
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Exhau
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« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2009, 03:51:36 PM »

All this light humor and yet no genuine response to a very valid question.

If complexity indicates design, then anything complex enough to design requires a designer.
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« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2009, 03:51:36 PM »

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Philadiddle
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« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2009, 01:59:09 PM »

All this light humor and yet no genuine response to a very valid question.

If complexity indicates design, then anything complex enough to design requires a designer.
A designer sounds pretty complex...who designed the designer?
There is the argument that complexity means there is a designer.  This is usually used by the creationist camp to promote their views.  I think it is a faulty way of thinking, and the question about who designed the designer is a valid response to this.

A more rational approach to the subject is that the universe has a beginning, and therefore something must have caused it.  It may be a multiverse or the flying spagetti monster or the judeo Christian god, but there must be a starting point which wasn't caused.  If everything has a cause, then we end up with an infinite regress.  If we have an infinite past, then we could never get to where we are, because it would take forever to get here.
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Howdyboyalan
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« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2009, 02:06:04 PM »

To be honest, its all so mind boggling sometimes I don't think anything is real.

Recently they found something that indicates that the entire universe is a hologram projected from a point outside the known universe Dropping jaw in shock!

If that doesn't screw with your mind, nothing will. Detective
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