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Ciscokid
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« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2009, 07:52:53 PM »


There is the argument that complexity means there is a designer.  This is usually used by the creationist camp to promote their views.  I think it is a faulty way of thinking, and the question about who designed the designer is a valid response to this.

A more rational approach to the subject is that the universe has a beginning, and therefore something must have caused it.  It may be a multiverse or the flying spagetti monster or the judeo Christian god, but there must be a starting point which wasn't caused.  If everything has a cause, then we end up with an infinite regress.  If we have an infinite past, then we could never get to where we are, because it would take forever to get here.


I agree.   Unfortunately the creationist camp is headed by people like Kirk Cameron who are targeting the masses not philosophers or professors.
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Jaime
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« Reply #61 on: May 26, 2009, 08:05:27 PM »

If there is a God, and I believe there is, then he is the designer. If he's not, then He ain't God.
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« Reply #61 on: May 26, 2009, 08:05:27 PM »

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0man
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« Reply #62 on: September 25, 2009, 02:43:59 PM »

A designer sounds pretty complex...who designed the designer?

Strange that you ask who designed the designer but you don't ask who designed the cosmos or who created life, and indeed the majority of people including scientists tell us life just "happened."

I believe God is life eternal and as scientists tell us life just happened there is your answer from science itself regarding God, He has always been, He has always existed and He did not need to be created, moreover the complexity of creation points to the need for a living creator who was there from the beginning of time and is from everlasting to everlasting as evidenced by the life around us.
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h2r77
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« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2009, 05:16:26 AM »

Great video on the watch maker principle.

http://www.kids4truth.com/watchmaker/watch.html

Clicked on the above link and got the following message ........

We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found.
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Ciscokid
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« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2009, 11:32:33 AM »

Strange that you ask who designed the designer but you don't ask who designed the cosmos or who created life, and indeed the majority of people including scientists tell us life just "happened."

One of my favorite shows is "The Universe" series on the History channel.  I've seen scientists address this question a couple/few times and the general response was "we don't know"...not "it just happened". 

This happens to be my approach...I simply don't know what caused the big bang or where life came from originally.  I think earthly religions try to assign a face to the "causer" of this event but I think those are probably just things to pacify us until we really find out for sure [if we ever do].

I believe God is life eternal and as scientists tell us life just happened there is your answer from science itself regarding God, He has always been, He has always existed and He did not need to be created, moreover the complexity of creation points to the need for a living creator who was there from the beginning of time and is from everlasting to everlasting as evidenced by the life around us.

This is certainly a viewpoint that one can hold to, but I would like to offer mine as well.  The Universe may have a "Creator" but it may be something none of us expected.  It may be something no earthly religion describes. 
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« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2009, 01:56:11 PM »

Ciscokid, are you a Christian?

Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior?

In Christ,
KP
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« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2009, 01:56:11 PM »

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Ciscokid
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« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2009, 04:53:16 PM »

Ciscokid, are you a Christian?

Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior?

In Christ,
KP


No Sir.  I believe that I once was, or at least I intended to be.  I was raised in a Christian home attending a fairly strict Baptist Church as well as going to a Christian school in the early part of my life.  I firmly believed the Bible and all that was written in it until I'd say my late 20's very early 30's [I'm 37 now].

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Victor08
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« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2009, 11:27:21 AM »

Ciscokid, are you a Christian?

Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior?

In Christ,
KP


No Sir.  I believe that I once was, or at least I intended to be.  I was raised in a Christian home attending a fairly strict Baptist Church as well as going to a Christian school in the early part of my life.  I firmly believed the Bible and all that was written in it until I'd say my late 20's very early 30's [I'm 37 now].




What caused you to stop believing in the Bible?
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Ciscokid
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« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2009, 01:28:41 PM »


What caused you to stop believing in the Bible?


I can highlight some key items that pushed me in that direction, if you want me to elaborate on any of them just ask.

1.  After reading a few books of the old testatment I really started getting the idea that "God" thought/acted much like a human.  As an example, Moses states that "God" told him to order the Israelites to kill every man woman and child [Midianites etc] save the virgin girls; they were to be spared and awarded to the soldiers and priests.  Sorry man, that story just reeks of humanity [human based desires/actions]  to no end.

2.  I honestly don't think the Bible describes our physical world accurately.  I don't believe the global flood story and I don't believe the garden of Eden creation story is literally true.  If the Bible can't accurately describe the physical world, how can I trust it for some invisible/ethereal world?

3.  From the moment I asked Jesus into my heart [age 6 or 7] til my late 20's I've never once experienced anything supernatural.  I started to contemplate this more, as time went on, I started to consider that perhaps there is NO supernatural world.  Or even if there is one, what does it matter; we can't really make any predictions or know exactly what this spirit world entails.  So for now I've simply filed it away as "Don't believe it til I have reason to".

4.  I became less and less impressed with the Christian worldview that I had grown so accustomed to.  Pray for something, if it works out in your favor...praise God...if it doesn't...it was God's will.  How can you ever fail?  This was a worldview that, if you looked through the right lens, everything fit so nicely, snug as a bug in a rug.  What is more important to me is, is it reality?  I don't care so much about being comforted, or made to feel special, or told that God has a special plan for me; I want to know what is reality.   To express it in another way, I'd rather shiver in the coldness of reality than be warmed by the fires of delusion.

5.  I could go on a bit more but I think I have the major points.  Ultimately, I'm not so much an atheist as I am an agnostic.  I also have questions just like everyone else, I just don't feel confident in assigning any one "identity" to the cause of the big bang.  My guess is that it's something none of us have imagined.
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« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2009, 02:08:47 PM »

I had some thoughts as you had, until I read The Case For Christ, by Lee Stroebel.

It didn't answer all my questions, but it answered enough so that I was willing to take the rest by faith. Which we have to do anyway. If it was all concrete, no faith would be required. Faith IS the whole point!
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« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2009, 02:08:47 PM »

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Victor08
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« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2009, 10:37:55 PM »

I had some thoughts as you had, until I read The Case For Christ, by Lee Stroebel.

It didn't answer all my questions, but it answered enough so that I was willing to take the rest by faith. Which we have to do anyway. If it was all concrete, no faith would be required. Faith IS the whole point!


A Review of Lee Strobel's The Case for a Creator

LeGrande Blount

Lee Strobel, in his work The Case for a Creator, takes the long step from investigative reporter to combination biologist, anthropologist, archeologist, geneticist and paleontologist. And since he was allowed this freedom I will likewise take a similar leap. But before I start my own work it might be better to write a "How to write a Lee Strobel Investigative Essay."

How to write a Lee Strobel Investigative Essay

First, reintroduce the tired, old, but well-received, personal, atheistic past--an acclaimed addition to each of his three works so far, one that is loved by Strobel supporters. This provides critical fodder for the "born again" crowd. I suggest a similar "rags to riches" or "see the light" conversion.

Next it is important to ignore the majority of legitimate scientific data that supports the "standard model" or accepted model. Of the hundreds of biologists, anthropologists, paleontologists, microbiologists and geneticists who ascribe to and add supporting evidence to the standard model, seek out only charlatans, and the few who vocally disagree with the majority consensus. Be careful to hide the fact that even they are expressing only minor disagreement with the standard model in a specific area and ensure not to note that nearly all agree that evolution is a fact (since the opposition to evolution is his underlying and oft reinforced proposition).

When all else fails, cite lawyers who stay in business scripting words that sound credible, skirt the edge of legitimacy, and give a totally different impression of what is true. Along these lines make sure there is a hazy and ill-defined difference between Darwin's Theory of "Survival of the fittest," the fact of evolution, and the propositions of the emergence of life so you can lambaste all three simultaneously when the opportunity arises. A healthy sprinkling of quotes in and out of context by legitimate scientists in the arena will add legitimacy even if those same experts (such as Richard Dawkins and Stephen Hawking) have publicly admonished in the most fervent terms your underlying premise.

Next, form numerous straw men. Thrash them severely and always claim victory upon success. Dig up friends who believe what you are trying to promote--credibly or not--and cite them liberally.
You see, once I was able to formulate how to write a Lee Strobel investigation, I thought I would give it a try. In fact by his own rationale, I have been able to disprove theism using the same methodology. Here goes:

The Narrative of Theistic Devolution

Last weekend I had the opportunity to visit the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. You know, before this trip I used to be a devoted Christian and attended church regularly, but with the trend of the country toward greater theological focus, I thought it would be best to "investigate" the underlying premises on which my religious beliefs rested. So in an effort to "track down" the truth, I invited a theologian from one of the local universities to come with me and explain some of the artwork in the Met. Dr. Name Withheld is a religious historian focusing on the Mid-Evil period of religious development. He teaches several courses at NYU. The opportunity to visit the Met is a treat that professors seldom get, so he was happy to join me on my investigation. As we walked through the Mid-Evil section we began discussing the life of Jesus.

"Here is a depiction of the birth scene," Dr. Withheld said.

After a few minutes studying the painting I remarked, "You know, I have never seen golden halos over anyone's head; are they sure that halos are gold?"

"Well this is just a depiction, the halos are there to give the impression of divinity to the characters in the painting," he responded

"How about this painting of Jesus teaching in the synagogue?" I asked.

"Oh yes, a lot of the artists of this period would depict the full stories of the gospels."

"Most of the works in this room appear to depict the crucifixion," I noted.

"Of course, that and the Resurrection are two of the most important events in the story of Jesus."

"You know, quite a few of these paintings showing Jesus depict him with a European look."

"Each culture depicts Jesus in their own cultural setting."

"Do you mean to say this isn't how he really looked?"

"No, don't be ridiculous, of course not. He was from the middle east, spoke Aramaic, and was a carpenter. He wouldn't look anything like a European."

"Well what about the depictions of the crucifixion? Are they correct?" I asked.

"Parts of them are correct to the story. Most depict a cross in the traditional Christian shape. Most researchers say it would be too hard to make, however, and the cross was probably 'T' shaped."

"Do you mean to tell me that all of these pictures depicting the most important events in Christian history are wrong?"

"They aren't necessarily wrong, they are trying to convey an underlying idea or impression."

"So in your expert opinion, there is no way any of these artists are accurately and correctly depicting the actual events of Jesus life, they are not depicting anything like what Jesus looked like, and they have no basis on which to form the artwork that they are presenting to the public as depicting the events of Jesus life and story."

"That is correct, there is no underlying basis for the images of Jesus in these works of art. No one really knows what he looked like. You know, there were no cameras 2000 years ago. Besides, that is not what art is supposed to do."

"What about the fresco in the Sistine Chapel that depicts God, Man, and Creation?"

"All of these works are artist's impressions, they aren't exactly what Jesus looked like and the Sistine Chapel does not portray what the Creation really looked like or what God looked like."

"Well I'm pretty sure Moses looks a lot like Charlton Heston, after all that is exactly what Cecil B. DeMille portrayed."

"No, that is idiotic, none of these works of art have any resemblance to reality. They have a different purpose. They exist to relay the underlying meaning or purpose. They are meant to uplift and reinforce the underlying idea, not depict what things actually looked like."

"Oh, so once again--let me get this straight--all these depictions are known to be false, and most all theologians would agree that they were inaccurate? Yet they are still displayed to convince people of their underlying truth?"

"That's right they are not presented as exactly the way things were, or exactly the way things looked, or exactly what God looks like. People didn't walk around with halos over their heads, no matter how inspired Cecil B. Demille was he probably got lots of things wrong in his movie, and Moses didn't look like Charlton Heston so far as we know."

"Then how is it that religion can claim any legitimacy if everything they depict in these works of art is without basis or validity?" I asked.

"They aren't exact depictions, they are representations. There is nothing about them that is factual."

"Oh, so religion is nonfactual."

"No, you idiot! The paintings are designed to depict an underlying impression of the meaning of what the artist is trying to convey. He is trying to convey the principles of religious devotion and uses his skill as an artist to present that."

"Well, according to the logic of Lee Strobel, if the picture or a presentation is inaccurate, the underlying principles must be inaccurate too. I don't think it is too much of a jump to say the same thing about religion! I think I will throw off these silly Christian ideas because there is nothing factual in any representation we have about Jesus, there is nothing factual about the creation fresco in the Sistine Chapel, and God as depicted is just someone's impression--or as you have admitted a pure fabrication. There is nothing that any theologian can point to as valid in any of these hundreds of pictures, frescos or sculptures that is accurate. The message I see is that Jesus didn't really exist, God doesn't exist and there is nothing but falsehood in the depictions of every critical event in Christianity. So I guess I will just have to throw off my religious cloak and claim atheism," I exclaimed victoriously.

"I don't know who Lee Strobel is but if this is a sample of his logic, he is an idiot. And if you use that type of logic, you are an idiot too. Now lets go eat lunch, otherwise my ulcer will start burning."

So there you have it: Christianity and theism disproved via the Lee Strobel logic methodology.

If you can see through this logical maze, I am sure you will see right through A case for a Creator. If you have had your faith shaken by such logic, you may wish to pick up any of Strobel's works to regain perspective. He embraces the same logical theme in all of his works.

If you would like an accurate description of the "usual suspects" such books rely on, Wired magazine, Oct 2004, has an excellent rundown of most of those cited in its article The Crusade Against Evolution. Wired also covers the underlying deception: how they almost tell the truth and almost portray their position in a legitimate fashion--but not really. The Discovery Institute will be happy to add one more parroting work to the list of what they call legitimate inquiry into the topic of evolution, Darwin, and the emergence of life.
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h2r77
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« Reply #71 on: November 22, 2009, 04:54:49 AM »

Great video on the watch maker principle.

http://www.kids4truth.com/watchmaker/watch.html

The correct address is

http://kids4truth.com/Dyna/Watchmaker/English.aspx
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« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2009, 11:06:26 AM »

True, watches are not living things, and don't evolve.   But what if they could?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0
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« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2009, 11:06:26 AM »

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Victor08
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« Reply #73 on: December 23, 2009, 04:35:00 PM »

I often wonder what motivates an atheist or just somebody who dislikes Christianity to come on a Christian forum and argue about creation, God, Jesus, or whatever. Do you gain some kind of pleasure? Is it fun to you? Are you bored? It amazes me that people like Victor would spend so much time and effort disputing things like Lee Strobel.
I think it's healthy for the forum to have different views but some of you like to attack people personally even though you don't even know who they are just because you get some kind of weird pleasure from it.
Is there an anti-God forum somewhere that might make you happier, cause some of you sound miserable and angry all the time.

Good video, maybe some could research the complexity issue more.


"Disputing things like Lee Strobel" only took a couple of minutes.
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« Reply #74 on: December 23, 2009, 05:34:05 PM »

True, watches are not living things, and don't evolve.   But what if they could?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0

The evolution proponent you linked to doesn't know anything about the topic.  He claims evolution is not a theory about origins and that is completely false.

The theory of evolution states that we evolved from rocks.  Rain came from the sky.  The runoff picking up mineral and chemicals from rocks, the runoff gathered in a pool and all those chemicals formed the first amino acid.  The amino acids formed a gene which formed a cell which eventually formed us.

Bond.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 06:12:51 PM by BondServant » Logged
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