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Author Topic: Heart as the center of thought  (Read 1046 times)
Barabbas
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« on: October 15, 2009, 02:45:43 PM »
One of the ancient beliefs of both Egyptian and Greek culture was that the physical organ of the heart was central to memory, emotion, thinking, and personality itself.  This seems to be a widely held view in the ancient world and probably held by the Hebrews themselves.

For instance, in Egypt, when a mummy was preserved - it's brains were thrown out as waste.  However the heart was carefully preserved as a integral part of the process of mummification.

Much of the language of the Bible seems to back this ancient belief.

Also put the Urim and the Thummim in the breastpiece, so they may be over Aaron's heart whenever he enters the presence of the LORD. Thus Aaron will always bear the means of making decisions for the Israelites over his heart before the LORD.

"Whenever Aaron enters the Holy Place, he will bear the names of the sons of Israel over his heart on the breastpiece of decision as a continuing memorial before the LORD.

"Tell the Israelites to bring me an offering. You are to receive the offering for me from each man whose heart prompts him to give.

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts.

Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.

Just like a geocentric point of view, there does seem to be syncretism between the ancient world view of the heart and the language of the bible. 

Unlike geocentrism, language that uses the ancient belief that personality came from the heart is less problematic for us today since we still speak metaphorically that way, but it is interesting to see how that ancient belief has influenced the language of the Bible.

Question though ... for those that insist on a correct scientific outlook of the Bible as testifying to the truth of the Bible, how do you get around such syncretistic language?
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Jimmy
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2009, 06:18:59 PM »
The young earth creationists simply do not see any problem there.  They know from scripture that the heart is the seat of memory, emotion, thinking, and personality.  It is obvious that any ideas to the contrary are nothing more than a conspiracy of atheistic scientists.  

Rolling on floor laughing
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2009, 06:18:59 PM »
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farouk
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2009, 06:26:55 PM »
Jeremiah 17.9 certainly sees the heart as the centre.
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Read God's Word prayerfully every day; it's a joy and privilege.

If folks feel they must have TATTOOS, have you considered having faith related designs tattooed?

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larry2
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2009, 06:27:39 PM »
Dear Barabbas, Heart is not necessarily used as the muscle of pumping blood, but being it is the center of life in thought. It is used to express our innermost feelings. Strong's has the meaning below.

03820 bl leb labe

a form of 03824; TWOT-1071a; n m

AV-heart 508, mind 12, midst 11, understanding 10, hearted 7, wisdom 6, comfortably 4, well 4, considered 2, friendly 2,
kindly 2, stouthearted+047 2, care+07760 2, misc 21; ;593

1) inner man,  mind,  will,  heart,  understanding
1a) inner part,  midst
1a1) midst (of things)
1a2) heart (of man)
1a3) soul,  heart (of man)
1a4) mind,  knowledge,  thinking,  reflection,  memory
1a5) inclination,  resolution,  determination (of will)
1a6) conscience
1a7) heart (of moral character)
1a8) as seat of appetites
1a9) as seat of emotions and passions 1a10) as seat of courage
  
For instance: 03820 bl leb labe

a form of 03824; TWOT-1071a; n m
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 02:25:13 PM by larry2 » Logged
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Jimmy
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« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2009, 07:17:57 PM »
See Barabbas, I told you so.   Smile
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Barabbas
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2009, 11:27:50 PM »
It's difficult to think about this except metaphorically.  Today we usually always talk about the heart as being the emotional part of ourselves ... but we know it's not really our physical heart.  Our heart may beat faster because we are afraid... but we know it's our brain that tells it to do that.

The ancient world didn't know that.  The greeks actually thought the brain's function was to produce mucus.  It's often difficult to know for sure how the Hebrew authors used the term - but every indication would lead us to believe that they also thought of the heart as the center of thought.  Our metaphorical language of the heart owes it's etymology to that ancient belief.

It's just another one of those literal vs. figurative arguments that I find interesting.
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2009, 11:27:50 PM »
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Jimmy
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2009, 06:55:35 AM »
Quote from: Barabbas on October 15, 2009, 11:27:50 PM
It's difficult to think about this except metaphorically.  Today we usually always talk about the heart as being the emotional part of ourselves ... but we know it's not really our physical heart.  Our heart may beat faster because we are afraid... but we know it's our brain that tells it to do that.

The ancient world didn't know that.  The greeks actually thought the brain's function was to produce mucus.  It's often difficult to know for sure how the Hebrew authors used the term - but every indication would lead us to believe that they also thought of the heart as the center of thought.  Our metaphorical language of the heart owes it's etymology to that ancient belief.

It's just another one of those literal vs. figurative arguments that I find interesting.

I do not believe there is a Hebrew word for brain that is used in the Bible.  If there is, it is never used as the seat of consciousness, emotion, knowledge, etc.  We treat the heart that way metaphorically.  The ancients, as you have pointed out, treated the heart that way literally.  I suspect that there are some today who still, in ignorace, believe the heart is the seat of consciousness.  One would hope they are few and far between.
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2009, 12:22:06 PM »
Quote from: Barabbas on October 15, 2009, 11:27:50 PM
The greeks actually thought the brain's function was to produce mucus.
Some of what I read here leads me to believe they may have been correct. [/curmudgeon]
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2009, 12:45:55 AM »
I dunno.  What about bowels of mercy?  Perhaps that's why sometimes we say that we're feeling crappy.  And that if we trust our emotions, it'll all work out.   Crack up
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Doc
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2009, 01:00:17 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on October 16, 2009, 06:55:35 AM
Quote from: Barabbas on October 15, 2009, 11:27:50 PM
It's difficult to think about this except metaphorically.  Today we usually always talk about the heart as being the emotional part of ourselves ... but we know it's not really our physical heart.  Our heart may beat faster because we are afraid... but we know it's our brain that tells it to do that.

The ancient world didn't know that.  The greeks actually thought the brain's function was to produce mucus.  It's often difficult to know for sure how the Hebrew authors used the term - but every indication would lead us to believe that they also thought of the heart as the center of thought.  Our metaphorical language of the heart owes it's etymology to that ancient belief.

It's just another one of those literal vs. figurative arguments that I find interesting.

I do not believe there is a Hebrew word for brain that is used in the Bible.  If there is, it is never used as the seat of consciousness, emotion, knowledge, etc.  We treat the heart that way metaphorically.  The ancients, as you have pointed out, treated the heart that way literally.  I suspect that there are some today who still, in ignorace, believe the heart is the seat of consciousness.  One would hope they are few and far between.

However, there are scores of references to the MIND throughout scripture.  Doc
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2009, 01:00:17 PM »
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farouk
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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2009, 01:03:10 PM »
Mr D:...such as in Philippians 2, 'Let this mind be in you...'
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John 3.16 contains great theology, without doubt.

Read God's Word prayerfully every day; it's a joy and privilege.

If folks feel they must have TATTOOS, have you considered having faith related designs tattooed?

(And try vacationing in the South: plenty of sun, and some great churches down there!)
Doc
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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2009, 01:04:12 PM »
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on October 16, 2009, 12:22:06 PM
Quote from: Barabbas on October 15, 2009, 11:27:50 PM
The greeks actually thought the brain's function was to produce mucus.
Some of what I read here leads me to believe they may have been correct. [/curmudgeon]

Some would be fortunate if their brain did even that much for them!  Doc   Tipping hat
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Doc
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« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2009, 01:06:06 PM »
Quote from: farouk on October 21, 2009, 01:03:10 PM
Mr D:...such as in Philippians 2, 'Let this mind be in you...'

Yes indeed.  Actually there are about one hundred references to the MIND throughout the Bible.  Doc
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« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2009, 01:06:06 PM »
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farouk
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« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2009, 01:07:54 PM »
G:

The Philippians 2.5 ref. seems a particularly challenging and effective one, since the great passage about the Lord Jesus humbling Himself and being obedient unto death, comes right after it.

Take care.

Quote from: Doc on October 21, 2009, 01:06:06 PM
Quote from: farouk on October 21, 2009, 01:03:10 PM
Mr D:...such as in Philippians 2, 'Let this mind be in you...'

Yes indeed.  Actually there are about one hundred references to the MIND throughout the Bible.  Doc
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John 3.16 contains great theology, without doubt.

Read God's Word prayerfully every day; it's a joy and privilege.

If folks feel they must have TATTOOS, have you considered having faith related designs tattooed?

(And try vacationing in the South: plenty of sun, and some great churches down there!)
Doc
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« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2009, 01:09:02 PM »
Quote from: Barabbas on October 15, 2009, 02:45:43 PM
One of the ancient beliefs of both Egyptian and Greek culture was that the physical organ of the heart was central to memory, emotion, thinking, and personality itself.  This seems to be a widely held view in the ancient world and probably held by the Hebrews themselves.

For instance, in Egypt, when a mummy was preserved - it's brains were thrown out as waste.  However the heart was carefully preserved as a integral part of the process of mummification.

Much of the language of the Bible seems to back this ancient belief.

Also put the Urim and the Thummim in the breastpiece, so they may be over Aaron's heart whenever he enters the presence of the LORD. Thus Aaron will always bear the means of making decisions for the Israelites over his heart before the LORD.

"Whenever Aaron enters the Holy Place, he will bear the names of the sons of Israel over his heart on the breastpiece of decision as a continuing memorial before the LORD.

"Tell the Israelites to bring me an offering. You are to receive the offering for me from each man whose heart prompts him to give.

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts.

Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.

Just like a geocentric point of view, there does seem to be syncretism between the ancient world view of the heart and the language of the bible. 

Unlike geocentrism, language that uses the ancient belief that personality came from the heart is less problematic for us today since we still speak metaphorically that way, but it is interesting to see how that ancient belief has influenced the language of the Bible.

Question though ... for those that insist on a correct scientific outlook of the Bible as testifying to the truth of the Bible, how do you get around such syncretistic language?

For those with "common sense" there is little problem.  For those without common sense, there is little help.  Doc
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