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l.a.providence
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« on: October 04, 2009, 11:32:53 PM »

then, that means that anything can just 'come into existence'...

why then don't we see objects, animals, plants, etc. etc... magically appear where nothing was
before?....

we don't see this...instead everything is ordered and has been evolving (not speaking of evolution here) from the beginning...

and i'm not talking about new species arriving either..


we should see objects appearing in their own light if the universe didn't have a creator from it's beginnings?
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cberman
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2009, 11:39:54 PM »

This is a rather strong argument for theistic belief. I find it rather convincing.

But, it should be noted that the generation of a universe from nothing is on a different, more primal level than the generation of a mere balloon in a room out of nothing. The idea of nothing existing is actually quite extensive. Does this imply that there was no space? Does this imply that there was no time?

By its very nature, that it is something almost impossible for us to even think about, some people do not find this argument compelling for belief in God. Others find it to be even more powerful proof.
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2009, 11:39:54 PM »

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Ciscokid
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« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2009, 07:44:49 AM »

then, that means that anything can just 'come into existence'...

why then don't we see objects, animals, plants, etc. etc... magically appear where nothing was
before?....

we don't see this...instead everything is ordered and has been evolving (not speaking of evolution here) from the beginning...

and i'm not talking about new species arriving either..


we should see objects appearing in their own light if the universe didn't have a creator from it's beginnings?




Scientists believe that there was a big bang, the starting point of our Universe...they don't say what caused it because we don't empirically know.  Saying that the Universe "came from nothing" isn't really properly addressing the topic.
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Elaine
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2009, 08:35:32 AM »

then, that means that anything can just 'come into existence'...

why then don't we see objects, animals, plants, etc. etc... magically appear where nothing was
before?....

Yes, that is what it means.

There is a Law of Faith  - by that Law everything that was made was made - Faith is a substance ----in the spirit realm it is what governs --- the natural man will never understand this. It is a supernatural force - I use the Law of Faith constantly --- and "things" appear usually within 24 hrs (I could give you a list), ask and it is given -believe and receive, how could He not give us all things?  :) 
Fact, Law ----no magic.

Sometimes I use the Law of Sowing and Reaping and I might reap in 6 months - it is guaranteed - more dependable than turning on a light switch and the light turning on from my experience.

Faith is the most powerful force in the Universe - it is from Spirit that all matter was created ---and again, Faith governs in the Spirit realm.

Oh, how I wish my brothers and sisters in Christ would really open to the wonder and happiness of living in the Kingdom -where all authority and dominion has been passed to us.  I'm a baby Christian - and this new world Christ has told us about is unfolding everyday for me. 
Praise God, Who is beyond our imaginations and may His will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
   
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JamesTheLeast
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2009, 01:26:59 PM »

then, that means that anything can just 'come into existence'...

why then don't we see objects, animals, plants, etc. etc... magically appear where nothing was
before?....

we don't see this...instead everything is ordered and has been evolving (not speaking of evolution here) from the beginning...

and i'm not talking about new species arriving either..


we should see objects appearing in their own light if the universe didn't have a creator from it's beginnings?


You are right.  Whole Universes could well appear. 

The fly in your ointment is that the locations you want to see things popping in and out of, like say the air six feet in front of me, is that that location already has something in it.  The "nothing" you want these "magical" occurrences to happen in, just doesn't exist INSIDE this Universe.  Everything in the Universe has something in it, even if it is only some energy pressure keeping it's neighbouring bits at a distance.  If it didn't, then that point would collapse and not be IN our Universe any more.

One could postulate that for every person and every choice, observation, or probability set, that new Universes are created splitting off from the root as branches on a vine.  Some bearing fruit, some not.  There is no more good reason to believe in an "Our Universe" centrist theory any more that older Geocentrist theories.  All of them are just one more testament to the beauty, simplicity, and diversity of Gods creation.
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son of God
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 02:28:12 AM »

Apparently the skies the limit based upon the logic presented.  Why stop anywhere?  Let the creative imaginative juices flow, and whatever comes to mind can be actual fact, somewhere, sometime, somehow.  Just one question: do I have to drink poison when you all do?
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 02:28:12 AM »

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Jimmy
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 07:24:37 AM »

Apparently the skies the limit based upon the logic presented.  Why stop anywhere?  Let the creative imaginative juices flow, and whatever comes to mind can be actual fact, somewhere, sometime, somehow. 

That is only allowed in history, philosophy, theology, etc.  In the sciences it is subject to test and evaluation.
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JamesTheLeast
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 09:40:02 AM »

Just one question: do I have to drink poison when you all do?

Don't be silly.  Of course you don't.  That would be your choice of course and would create your own outcomes.  It's simple cause and effect, you have free will and may exercise it as you wish.  Each choice you make has consequences.  You, like Neo in The Matrix are free to choose the blue pill if you want. 
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cberman
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 06:28:03 PM »

Apparently the skies the limit based upon the logic presented.  Why stop anywhere?  Let the creative imaginative juices flow, and whatever comes to mind can be actual fact, somewhere, sometime, somehow.  Just one question: do I have to drink poison when you all do?

This is philosophy, friend. Logic goes a lot farther than simple, every-day 'common sense'.
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JamesTheLeast
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2009, 09:42:49 AM »

But, it should be noted that the generation of a universe from nothing is on a different, more primal level than the generation of a mere balloon in a room out of nothing. The idea of nothing existing is actually quite extensive. Does this imply that there was no space? Does this imply that there was no time?

Nothingness, by it's very nature precludes space and time, for both of those concepts are relative.  ie: time requires something before and/or after which requires at least two points of reference which, by the definition of nothing is at least one more point than is permitted.  The same is obviously then also true for space, or any other concept other than a dimensionless point.

That single eternal yet instant, dimensionless point is the most rational concept of God I can think of.
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2009, 09:42:49 AM »

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cberman
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2009, 10:42:04 AM »

The subject is terribly easy to argue about philosophically as it depends upon one's definitions of matters that are not easily intuited, or laid out analytically.

Is it possible for space to exist where space was not? The very sentence is almost illogical, as the word 'where' signifies a particular space, that is, a space where space is not, but that is clearly a contradiction. Similar contradictions arise if one speaks of time in terms of 'a time when time was not' or 'a time when time began'.
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JamesTheLeast
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2009, 03:55:50 PM »

     I couldn't agree more and would have no interest in such a philosophical discussion as it would be likely to rapidly become whatever the discussors defined the terms to mean. 

     A discussion of the nature of the universe that does not both obey the rigours of scientific method using mathematical and physical terms as they already exist and agree with and enlighten the message of the Bible and the teachings of Jesus and the apostles would be a most disagreeable kind of mental self stimulation. 

     But then, that would be science, the "how" of a thing, rather than the philosophical "why".

     
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