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Author Topic: King James Version or RSV or NIV, does it make a difference?  (Read 8422 times)
Hobie
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« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2009, 08:34:18 AM »


You can question and debate it, but history has pretty well fleshed it out.....the Inquisition would burn the books as well as the believer and any of their printing presses and the Reformation took off when the common man was finally able to get a copy of the scriptures and read for himself what the truth contained in it was..
   

I was just asking you to flesh it out.  You were making assertions that I don't think can be backed up.

Here is something I took from the NIV website that you might find interesting.  You might want to read some of the history of Biblical development to get a better idea how scholars make the decisions that they do when coming up with translations.

Just why does the KJV have verses that the newer translations don't have?

The words are in the footnotes, with the note that they occur in later manuscripts. They are entirely absent from the early Greek manuscripts and papyri. So why are these words found in the KJV?

The talented KJV translators worked from 1604 to 1611 and they did a fine job with the very limited resources available to them back then. They had basically twelve ancient manuscripts which the subcommittees shared. Since that time, however, many hundreds of additional manuscripts have been found, and many of them are far older than those available to the KJV team. And of course, more ancient means closer to the originals, closer to the first inspired manuscripts which came from the mind of God to the original authors. Therefore they are also more trustworthy and reliable.

The important fact here is that in these far older manuscripts some of the words and phrases found in later manuscripts are absent. Clearly they were added somewhere along the way. How did this happen?

During the terrible persecution of the Christians under Nero, Decius, and Diocletian, all copies of the Scriptures were ordered to be destroyed. Of course, some did survive and then when Emperor Constantine became a Christian in 312, he ordered that hundreds of copies of the Scriptures should be made. And pious scribes and copyists set to work with great fervor. Occasionally they would add a word or phrase in the margin, and then the next copyist would come along and suppose that these words belonged in the text, and he would insert them. So the later manuscripts got to be a bit longer and contain material not found in the earliest and best manuscripts. And that’s why translators today take those words and phrases out of the text, because they are not found in the earliest and most trustworthy manuscripts and codices.

In conclusion, you may be sure that in the NIV you will find all of the inspired text but not the words added by men, however much we might like to have those additional words. Translators must give us the very best and genuine text without any human additions. The highest criterion of the NIV team is accuracy in transmitting the inspired text.



The Majority text keeps any one person or group of persons from making changes that can obscure or drastically change the meaning but if they take it out completely then that causes a real problem as one doesnt even have words to check. Here is what having such large numbers of the Textus Receptus does..

"THE MAJORITY TEXT PRINCIPLE

If one will place all the texts along side each other and then see the most common words, he will see the truth through the error. One error by one man can never outnumber the truth presented by the majority. Remember that God promised that He would preserve His Word. This is a Biblical principle, as shown in Deuteronomy 19:15, Matthew 18:16 and II Corinthians 13:1.

The Bible way to determine truth is to collect all the witnesses and examine the facts that each one has and trust the things that the majority agree upon. All men at the beginning had the truth. As error began to creep in, a need appeared to find the truth again. As far back as the Syriac text in A. D. 150, this majority text principle was used as the common way to find the truth.

All of the texts were put together and the agreeing words were recorded, and God's Word was considered complete. Textus Receptus is a Latin term meaning: "Text Received", or "Text Approved", or "Text Accepted". This name was placed on the text in 1624 by the first men who put it into print in one volume. In 1624 this was the text that had long been accepted. Prior to that time it was called: The Majority Text. In the preface to the Greek text the publishers wrote: "The text which is now received by all, in which we give nothing altered or corrupt....."

Now here is a good explanation by Marion H. Reynolds, Jr. and Dennis W. Costella of how some of the modern translations have picked up corruption..

"...In 2 Corinthians 2:17, the Spirit of God warned against the "many which corrupt the word of God " Therefore, it is not surprising in studying church history to discover that such attempts to corrupt the Word of God were clearly evident in the altered, polluted and revised manuscripts purporting to be the Word of God that have existed through the centuries....

It is impossible in such limited space to trace the history and preservation of the true Word of God down through the centuries. However, in the providence of God, two very important things happened in the 15th and 16th centuries for which we should all be eternally grateful. First, was the invention of the printing press and second, the Protestant Reformation. It was the combination of these two developments that made possible the translation and publication of the Authorized King James Version of the Bible in 1611. From then until now, this wonderful gift of God and its subsequent translation into every known major language in the world has changed the course of history and we enjoy its benefits today.

In the latter part of the 19th Century......Theories and methods of "higher criticism" and "textual criticism" were developed and couched in such scholarly language that most people failed to recognize that these were actually attacks upon the Word of God - even though carefully disguised as an effort to "supply the English reader with a more correct text of the New Testament" and to "render the New Testament more generally intelligible." The rush toward new versions was on and though the early progress was slow, we are seeing the results today..... In 1881, influenced by and sympathetic to the Darwinian theory of evolution, two men, Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton J. A. Hort brought forth a different version of the Greek New Testament - one which differed from the Textus Receptus (the underlying Greek text of the KJV) in over 5,700 places.

This Westcott-Hort Greek Text was later to become the basis for the English Revised Version and the American Standard Version.  It gave great weight to two corrupted manuscripts-the Vaticanus (Codex B) which was found in the Vatican Library in 1481 and was known to the KJV translators but was not used by them, and the Sinaiticus (Codex Aleph) which was found in a monastery wastebasket at the foot of Mt. Sinai in 1844....

 Tischendorf, who discovered the Sinaiticus manuscript, noted at least 12,000 changes that had been made on this manuscript by others than the original copyist.  It is difficult to understand why such documents as these could lead one to ignore the simple fact that the Greek text underlying the King James Version, the Textus Receptus, agreed with 90-95% of all known Scripture- related manuscripts..."


 Let me give you some books and sites to go over which gives a good historical background and or explanation of how the corruptions came about or were rejected and why.

Modern Bible Translations Unmasked By Russell R Standish

or  LET'S WEIGH THE EVIDENCE by Barry Burton which gives a easy to understand explanation...

"...There Are Two Kinds of Manuscripts:

Accurate Copies

These manuscripts represent the manuscripts from which the "Textus Receptus" or Received Text was taken.

They are the majority of Greek manuscripts which agree with each other and have been accepted by Bible believing Christians down through the centuries. It is from these manuscripts that the King James Bible was translated in 1611.

Corrupted Copies

These manuscripts represent the corrupted copies of the Bible, also known as the Alexandrian manuscripts. These manuscripts, many times, do not even agree with each other. The Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts are part of this group. These are the manuscripts on which Westcott and Hort and the modern versions rely so heavily.

There are 5,309 surviving Greek manuscripts that contain all or part of the New Testament. These manuscripts agree together 95% of the time. The other 5% account for the differences between the King James and the modern versions.

The modern versions had to use the Textus Receptus, since it contains the majority of the surviving Greek manuscripts. The problem is that, when the Textus Receptus disagreed with the Vaticanus or the Sinaiticus, they preferred these corrupted manuscripts over the Textus Receptus.

That accounts for the 5% corruption in the modern versions. Even these two manuscripts agree with the Textus Receptus much of the time. When they do not agree, it is because Marcion (120-160 AD) or Origin (184-254 AD) or whoever, corrupted them...."




Here is some more background on the corruption of the Minority Text from another site....

"...almost all modern English bibles translated since 1898 are based on the Minority Text (this includes the New American Standard Bible, the New International Version, the Living Bible, the New Revised Standard Version, the New World Translation, the New Century Version, the Good News Bible, etc.). These bible versions are only supported by about five of the over 5,000 manuscripts in existence, or about .1% of all manuscripts, which is why it's also known as the "Minority text.".

The two most prominent manuscripts of the Minority Texts are the Vaticanus and the Sinaiticus....These Minority Texts frequently disagreed with each other as well as with the Majority Text, and also contained many obvious and flagrant mistakes. Up until the late 1800s, the Minority Texts were utterly rejected by Christians.

The fact that these two manuscripts may have been older does not prove they are better. More likely it indicates that they were set aside because of their numerous errors....

The Vaticanus, which is the sole property of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Sinaiticus, are both known to be overwhelmed with errors. Words and whole phrases are repeated twice in succession or completely omitted, while the entire manuscript has had the text mutilated by some person or persons who ran over every letter with a pen making exact identification of many of the characters impossible...."

"...One of the manuscripts that make up the Minority Text is the Vaticanus. The Vaticanus was found in 1481 in the Vatican library. The other manuscript is the Sinaiticus. The Sinaiticus was found in 1844 in a trash pile at Saint Catherine's monastery, and rescued from a long (and well-deserved) obscurity. It has a great number of omissions and has many words and phrases marked out and re-written. Both of these manuscripts are from Roman Catholic origin...."


http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nt_manuscripts.html


and it just goes on and on....

"...The Vaticanus Manuscript (B)
The Vaticanus manuscript was found in the Vatican library in 1481. It was rejected by the King James Translators because it was very corrupt and unreliable. The following portions of Scripture are missing from the Vaticanus: Genesis 1:1-46; 28; Psalms 106-138; Matthew 16:2-3; Mark 16:9-20; The Pastoral Epistles (1 & 2 Timothy and Titus) and everything after Hebrews 9:14. These were intentional omissions because the manuscript was found in excellent condition with no pieces missing. In the Gospels it leaves out 237 words, 452 clauses, and 748 whole sentences. These omissions were intentional since there was room left on pages to write these in. The Vaticanus manuscript was written on expensive Vellum and was in good condition when found which means that the missing areas were not due to missing sections but intentional omission.

The Sinaiticus Manuscript (a) Aleph
The major characteristic of this manuscript is that it is a literary mess. There are mistakes, erasures, sentences written on top of other sentences plus many words are omitted. It contains nearly all the New Testament, the Apocryphal Books plus two other false books, “The Shepherd of Hermes” and “The Epistle of Barnabas.” Every page contains corrections and revisions by at least ten different people. Corrections on the manuscript were made as late as the sixth or seventh century A.D. With so many revisions and corrections done to this manuscript, it made it totally worthless. It was found in a garbage can in St. Catherine’s Monastery in 1844 by Constantine Tischendorf. The manuscript was so bad, the monks were going to burn the manuscript just for heat. It too omits Mark 16:9-20....."

“On many occasions 10, 20, 30, 40 words are dropped through very carelessness. Letters and words, even whole sentences, are frequently written twice over, or begun and immediately cancelled; while that gross blunder, whereby a clause is omitted because it happens to end in the same words as the clause preceding, occurs no less than 115 times in the New Testament.” --- Dean Burgon

"....SINAITICUS (Aleph) completely omits the following verses while they are found in Vaticanus. Matthew 24:35 - "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away"; Luke 10:32; 17:35; John 9:38; 16:15; 21:25; and I Corinthians 2:15 and 13:2.

VATICANUS (B) omits Matthew 12:47 and Luke 23:17 while Sinaiticus retains them. Luke 23:17, "For of necessity he must release one onto them at the feast", is omitted in B, the NASB, and NIV, yet it is in Sinaticus and the majority of all Greek texts. Yet B omits Luke 23:34, "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do", while it is retained in Sinaticus and this time kept in the NASB and NIV. Go figure....."


http://www.scionofzion.com/vaticanus_sinaiticus.htm

http://www.exorthodoxforchrist.com/background_of_codex_sinaiticus_and_vaticanus.htm

http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/vital/kjv/part1-4.html

http://www.keithhunt.com/Ntmss.html


http://endtimeoutreach.com/whichbible.html
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« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2009, 11:11:15 AM »

That is circular reasoning..

Erasmus made many, many errors with the TR and its a myth that the Majority Text is inerrant.



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Hobie
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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2009, 11:55:04 AM »

That is circular reasoning..

Erasmus made many, many errors with the TR and its a myth that the Majority Text is inerrant.





Who said anything about 'inerrant', did I miss something....??
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2009, 03:38:35 PM »

Textus Interruptus?   Scratching head....a little confused.
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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2009, 04:38:15 PM »

Most of the "criticism" that occurs against newer translations such as the NIV is that, in some cases, it differs dramatically from the KJV. This, however, is the apex a faulty logic not to mention plain silly.  Comparing one translation to another will only reveal interpretive differences.  When compared to the Greek, however.....  For every flaw you can show me in the NIV I can show you one, if not more, in the KJV.

There are a few scriptures that have been altered to perpetuate certain doctrines.  One example is Revelation 1:1.  To the best of my knowledge there are only two translations currently in print that have actually attempted to translate the Greek word "eshmanen". The majority of translations completely ignore it thus changing the meaning of the verse if not the whole book.
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2009, 12:16:41 AM »



The Majority text keeps any one person or group of persons from making changes that can obscure or drastically change the meaning but if they take it out completely then that causes a real problem as one doesnt even have words to check. Here is what having such large numbers of the Textus Receptus does..

"THE MAJORITY TEXT PRINCIPLE

If one will place all the texts along side each other and then see the most common words, he will see the truth through the error. One error by one man can never outnumber the truth presented by the majority. Remember that God promised that He would preserve His Word. This is a Biblical principle, as shown in Deuteronomy 19:15, Matthew 18:16 and II Corinthians 13:1.



Your argument might be more convincing if you didn't try so hard to prove the unprovable .. do you have access to the original writings? 

Your argument is all based on a fallacy that more is better.  Just because there are more Byzantine texts that the TR is based upon (Majority text) does not mean it is best.  The more probable reason is that there are more Byzantine Greek texts simply because Byzantium spoke Greek.

Quote
If one will place all the texts alongside each other and then see the most common words, he will see the truth through the error. One error by one man can never outnumber the truth presented by the majority.
Just how is that true?  How many times in history have we seen this proved wrong?  Was Copernicus wrong since the majority of people thought the sun revolved around the earth?

Quote
...In 2 Corinthians 2:17, the Spirit of God warned against the "many which corrupt the word of God " Therefore, it is not surprising in studying church history to discover that such attempts to corrupt the Word of God were clearly evident in the altered, polluted and revised manuscripts purporting to be the Word of God that have existed through the centuries....

If the many are corrupting the word … then maybe the majority (or Majority text) are wrong?

As far as trying to prove the early uncials as being inferior to the Byzantine texts – that indeed would be the conclusion if you had already judged the Byzantine as being superior.  Whistling

 
Quote
It is impossible in such limited space to trace the history and preservation of the true Word of God down through the centuries. However, in the providence of God, two very important things happened in the 15th and 16th centuries for which we should all be eternally grateful. First, was the invention of the printing press and second, the Protestant Reformation. It was the combination of these two developments that made possible the translation and publication of the Authorized King James Version of the Bible in 1611. From then until now, this wonderful gift of God and its subsequent translation into every known major language in the world has changed the course of history and we enjoy its benefits today.

This is typical of the kind of argument used to claim the superiority of the TR … the claim of “Providential preservation”.  It’s a claim of a kind of divine sanction for a particular text.   When rational argument fails…
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Hobie
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2009, 11:59:41 AM »

Most of the "criticism" that occurs against newer translations such as the NIV is that, in some cases, it differs dramatically from the KJV. This, however, is the apex a faulty logic not to mention plain silly.  Comparing one translation to another will only reveal interpretive differences.  When compared to the Greek, however.....  For every flaw you can show me in the NIV I can show you one, if not more, in the KJV.

There are a few scriptures that have been altered to perpetuate certain doctrines.  One example is Revelation 1:1.  To the best of my knowledge there are only two translations currently in print that have actually attempted to translate the Greek word "eshmanen". The majority of translations completely ignore it thus changing the meaning of the verse if not the whole book.

True, the Greek can be difficult to translate, yet it is clear God was guiding the many writers who faithfully copied his word in the many copies of the Textus Receptus, which cannot be said with the corruptions of the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts which should clearly not have entered into any of the Bibles today.
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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2009, 12:03:00 PM »

True, the Greek can be difficult to translate, yet it is clear God was guiding the many writers who faithfully copied his word in the many copies of the Textus Receptus, which cannot be said with the corruptions of the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts which should clearly not have entered into any of the Bibles today.

Totally an opinion on your part and not a statement of fact.

How any Protestant who knows any Christian history can support the TR in any way shape or form is way beyond reason... and borders on ignorant fanaticism.
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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2009, 12:23:04 PM »

True, the Greek can be difficult to translate, yet it is clear God was guiding the many writers who faithfully copied his word in the many copies of the Textus Receptus, which cannot be said with the corruptions of the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts which should clearly not have entered into any of the Bibles today.

Totally an opinion on your part and not a statement of fact.

How any Protestant who knows any Christian history can support the TR in any way shape or form is way beyond reason... and borders on ignorant fanaticism.


Then why is it that the Textus Receptus has withstood the test of time, even with the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls you can compare and see those who made the copies stayed very true to the original. You cannot say the same about the Minority Text as you can clealy see the corruptions which come with those manuscripts..
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« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2009, 12:31:28 PM »

True, the Greek can be difficult to translate, yet it is clear God was guiding the many writers who faithfully copied his word in the many copies of the Textus Receptus, which cannot be said with the corruptions of the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts which should clearly not have entered into any of the Bibles today.

Totally an opinion on your part and not a statement of fact.

How any Protestant who knows any Christian history can support the TR in any way shape or form is way beyond reason... and borders on ignorant fanaticism.


Then why is it that the Textus Receptus has withstood the test of time, even with the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls you can compare and see those who made the copies stayed very true to the original. You cannot say the same about the Minority Text as you can clealy see the corruptions which come with those manuscripts..

Saying that it 'stood the test of time' is nothing more then an opinion.. one that I do not agree on.

How you can support a flawed document that has so much blood of Christians on it's hands is really unbelievable.

If anything, the fruits that the KJV has borne throughout the centuries should disqualify it to the same degree that Protestants disqualify Catholics.

They say you will know Christians by their fruits....  the fruits of the KJV are death and corruption.


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Hobie
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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2009, 02:03:05 PM »

True, the Greek can be difficult to translate, yet it is clear God was guiding the many writers who faithfully copied his word in the many copies of the Textus Receptus, which cannot be said with the corruptions of the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts which should clearly not have entered into any of the Bibles today.

Totally an opinion on your part and not a statement of fact.

How any Protestant who knows any Christian history can support the TR in any way shape or form is way beyond reason... and borders on ignorant fanaticism.


Then why is it that the Textus Receptus has withstood the test of time, even with the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls you can compare and see those who made the copies stayed very true to the original. You cannot say the same about the Minority Text as you can clealy see the corruptions which come with those manuscripts..

Saying that it 'stood the test of time' is nothing more then an opinion.. one that I do not agree on.

How you can support a flawed document that has so much blood of Christians on it's hands is really unbelievable.

If anything, the fruits that the KJV has borne throughout the centuries should disqualify it to the same degree that Protestants disqualify Catholics.

They say you will know Christians by their fruits....  the fruits of the KJV are death and corruption.




You must have something on your mind other than this thread, as most of the blood shed was on the true believers, first by the Roman Empire and then by Papal Rome who is the instigator of many of the corruptions as it became the 'Holy Roman Empire' seeking to spread its false doctrines including the beliefs of idoltry and other paganisms it had brought in and its reliance on 'traditions' rather than the true word of God.
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2009, 02:06:59 PM »

Nope.. I have nothing but the TR on my mind when I made those comments.
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Hobie
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2009, 02:08:52 PM »

Nope.. I have nothing but the TR on my mind when I made those comments.

Then try to keep on topic rather than go off on a tangent...
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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2009, 02:16:26 PM »

Nope.. I have nothing but the TR on my mind when I made those comments.

Then try to keep on topic rather than go off on a tangent...

Who went off on a tangent... I'm just stating the fruits that are inevitable if you hold to the view of scripture you espouse.
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« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2009, 02:42:30 PM »

Nope.. I have nothing but the TR on my mind when I made those comments.

Then try to keep on topic rather than go off on a tangent...

Who went off on a tangent... I'm just stating the fruits that are inevitable if you hold to the view of scripture you espouse.


So you feel the KJV is not Gods word, are you non-christian or atheist, agnostic as thats a bit out there...?? Scratching head....a little confused.
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