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Author Topic: King James Version or RSV or NIV, does it make a difference?  (Read 11449 times)
Mere Nick
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« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2009, 12:48:18 AM »

I've got to tell you Tantor - I might not think the KJV is the best translation ... but laying the blame of centuries of Christian violence at the feet of the KJV seems a little harsh don't you think?  We might as well blame Christ for the crimes of the crusades.  

No, we shouldn't blame the KJV for all of that.  It was George Bush's fault.
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taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.
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« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2009, 04:17:19 AM »


Matt 17:21
Matt 18:11
Matt 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
Acts 8:37
Acts 15:34
Acts 28:29
Romans 16:24

Would you be kind enough to tell us what critical theological point we would lose if these verses never existed?

Quote
Also, look at Rev 1:11, which I have always memorized as: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end." That phrase is also missing from the NRSV.

Other than a name for a poster, what do we miss here?

Quote
Textus Receptus was - and still is - the enemy of the Roman Church. This is an important fact to bear in mind...."

What does this have to do with anything?



Well, I would say thats how many false doctrines and beliefs got started, take out a verse here or a chapter there. What difference does it make....? Well you have to look at what it was that they wanted to shade or shape to their liking or 'tradition'. Take a look at the worship of idols which is strictly forbidden not just in the Commandments but in many places in scripture and the 'adoration' of the mother of Christ which goes beyond anything even hinted at in scripture, to say nothing of the elevation of a man in place of what is the domain of the divine and you can see what can happen...

That's not what I asked you.

What, specifically, theological point would we be missing?

Is there one?

Bump.....

If someone wanted to systematically take out the words and text showing the divinity of Christ, I would think that would be a significant thelogical point......

Which specific theological point would we miss? What point of doctrine? What critical aspect of the faith?

Is there one, or do you simply want to argue academic issues?

So do you think Christ was just a man, then his life and death would not hold eternal life for the world, or is that just a academic issue to you?
Is it that difficult for you to answer a simple question?

Demonstrate that the list of verses you provided, if they had never existed, would change our theology.

Christ identifies himself even before He came and became flesh, take a look at the words He uses, and if they were taken out or changed so would the meaning as well as the understanding of His divinity.....

Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Isaiah 48:12

Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Re 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Re 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
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« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2009, 04:17:19 AM »

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Mere Nick
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« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2009, 07:22:58 AM »

It looks like it's HRoberson who's getting stiffed.
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taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.
Tantor
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« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2009, 07:41:43 AM »

I'm definitely a Christian.

No, the KJV is not God's Word... the only thing that IS God's word are the original writings..

The KJV has been translated with the most bias and mast done more done irreparable damage to Christendom then any other single translation in history...

The simple fact that God allowed some of the original manuscripts the KJV was translated from to be destroyed in a fire should be a sign to us all that we should finish the job.

Currently I use the ESV for all my bible study... I feel its the most honest attempt at an unbiased translation that we currently have.. although it is not without faults.



Can you furnish us with these 'original writings', practiacally speaking I think not. The closest is probably the Dead Sea Scrolls, but other than that the version right now that is the best is the KJV....

Not even close.. you have been brainwashed.. my friend.. the KJV is a steaming pile of a translation.

And we will never find the originals because I believe God never wanted his inspired works compiled into the anthology we have that we call the Bible... if God really was interested in protecting his word, they would still exist. So in essence, the KJV is the pinnacle of man's arrogance toward God... and should be avoided by the serious christian like the plague that it is.





Wow, my brother,

I dont know what to say, except I will pray that you find Gods truth as that idea is just another way that evil keeps us from what God has given us in the written word. With one giant swipe you have wiped out any manuscript, translation, version, saying basically what God has provided is not good enough for you.

I would say it is you who needs their eyes opened.

Jesus was God.. and Jesus chose to not write anything.  I think that says volumes.

The scriptures also say that Christianity is a religion of faith and not sight... and it seems you have put all your eggs in one basket in the ability to see what the apostles wrote (if they actually wrote what we think they did).

So even the doctrines you hold are contrary to the skewed scriptures you hold do dearly.

If every single copy of the KJV was thrown in a fire.. it would be a good start for Christendom.. the start of a new rebirth of faith.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 07:53:57 AM by Tantor » Logged
HRoberson
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« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2009, 09:48:07 AM »


Matt 17:21
Matt 18:11
Matt 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
Acts 8:37
Acts 15:34
Acts 28:29
Romans 16:24

Would you be kind enough to tell us what critical theological point we would lose if these verses never existed?

Quote
Also, look at Rev 1:11, which I have always memorized as: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end." That phrase is also missing from the NRSV.

Other than a name for a poster, what do we miss here?

Quote
Textus Receptus was - and still is - the enemy of the Roman Church. This is an important fact to bear in mind...."

What does this have to do with anything?



Well, I would say thats how many false doctrines and beliefs got started, take out a verse here or a chapter there. What difference does it make....? Well you have to look at what it was that they wanted to shade or shape to their liking or 'tradition'. Take a look at the worship of idols which is strictly forbidden not just in the Commandments but in many places in scripture and the 'adoration' of the mother of Christ which goes beyond anything even hinted at in scripture, to say nothing of the elevation of a man in place of what is the domain of the divine and you can see what can happen...

That's not what I asked you.

What, specifically, theological point would we be missing?

Is there one?

Bump.....

If someone wanted to systematically take out the words and text showing the divinity of Christ, I would think that would be a significant thelogical point......

Which specific theological point would we miss? What point of doctrine? What critical aspect of the faith?

Is there one, or do you simply want to argue academic issues?

So do you think Christ was just a man, then his life and death would not hold eternal life for the world, or is that just a academic issue to you?
Is it that difficult for you to answer a simple question?

Demonstrate that the list of verses you provided, if they had never existed, would change our theology.

Christ identifies himself even before He came and became flesh, take a look at the words He uses, and if they were taken out or changed so would the meaning as well as the understanding of His divinity.....

Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Isaiah 48:12

Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Re 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Re 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Thank you for making my point.

If Rev 11.1 isn't in the text, there are plenty of other places to find the concept. The only thing we lose by not referring to this specific verse is a name that goes on a poster. We do not lose the idea of first and last.

Now, can you do any better with the other verses you've listed?
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HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
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aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
HRoberson
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« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2009, 09:49:22 AM »

It looks like it's HRoberson who's getting stiffed.

Ice tea for lunch.

$10 tip for a $47 bill.
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HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
The Enlightened One
Wizard of Smart
aC, LP, MC, BfS, Coop, SS, nKJV, EoG

I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
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« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2009, 09:49:22 AM »

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Hobie
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« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2009, 09:59:08 AM »


Matt 17:21
Matt 18:11
Matt 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
Acts 8:37
Acts 15:34
Acts 28:29
Romans 16:24

Would you be kind enough to tell us what critical theological point we would lose if these verses never existed?

Quote
Also, look at Rev 1:11, which I have always memorized as: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end." That phrase is also missing from the NRSV.

Other than a name for a poster, what do we miss here?

Quote
Textus Receptus was - and still is - the enemy of the Roman Church. This is an important fact to bear in mind...."

What does this have to do with anything?



Well, I would say thats how many false doctrines and beliefs got started, take out a verse here or a chapter there. What difference does it make....? Well you have to look at what it was that they wanted to shade or shape to their liking or 'tradition'. Take a look at the worship of idols which is strictly forbidden not just in the Commandments but in many places in scripture and the 'adoration' of the mother of Christ which goes beyond anything even hinted at in scripture, to say nothing of the elevation of a man in place of what is the domain of the divine and you can see what can happen...

That's not what I asked you.

What, specifically, theological point would we be missing?

Is there one?

Bump.....

If someone wanted to systematically take out the words and text showing the divinity of Christ, I would think that would be a significant thelogical point......

Which specific theological point would we miss? What point of doctrine? What critical aspect of the faith?

Is there one, or do you simply want to argue academic issues?

So do you think Christ was just a man, then his life and death would not hold eternal life for the world, or is that just a academic issue to you?
Is it that difficult for you to answer a simple question?

Demonstrate that the list of verses you provided, if they had never existed, would change our theology.

Christ identifies himself even before He came and became flesh, take a look at the words He uses, and if they were taken out or changed so would the meaning as well as the understanding of His divinity.....

Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Isaiah 48:12

Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Re 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Re 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Thank you for making my point.

If Rev 11.1 isn't in the text, there are plenty of other places to find the concept. The only thing we lose by not referring to this specific verse is a name that goes on a poster. We do not lose the idea of first and last.

Now, can you do any better with the other verses you've listed?

Well I dont think you looked at the video in the begining which explains how the changes affect what scripture teaches, and these are just a few of the changes. Check out some of the others...

http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html

Here is a another good video to check out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMYpJpaYNrA
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HRoberson
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« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2009, 10:01:02 AM »


Matt 17:21
Matt 18:11
Matt 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
Acts 8:37
Acts 15:34
Acts 28:29
Romans 16:24

Would you be kind enough to tell us what critical theological point we would lose if these verses never existed?

Quote
Also, look at Rev 1:11, which I have always memorized as: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end." That phrase is also missing from the NRSV.

Other than a name for a poster, what do we miss here?

Quote
Textus Receptus was - and still is - the enemy of the Roman Church. This is an important fact to bear in mind...."

What does this have to do with anything?



Well, I would say thats how many false doctrines and beliefs got started, take out a verse here or a chapter there. What difference does it make....? Well you have to look at what it was that they wanted to shade or shape to their liking or 'tradition'. Take a look at the worship of idols which is strictly forbidden not just in the Commandments but in many places in scripture and the 'adoration' of the mother of Christ which goes beyond anything even hinted at in scripture, to say nothing of the elevation of a man in place of what is the domain of the divine and you can see what can happen...

That's not what I asked you.

What, specifically, theological point would we be missing?

Is there one?

Bump.....

If someone wanted to systematically take out the words and text showing the divinity of Christ, I would think that would be a significant thelogical point......

Which specific theological point would we miss? What point of doctrine? What critical aspect of the faith?

Is there one, or do you simply want to argue academic issues?

So do you think Christ was just a man, then his life and death would not hold eternal life for the world, or is that just a academic issue to you?
Is it that difficult for you to answer a simple question?

Demonstrate that the list of verses you provided, if they had never existed, would change our theology.

Christ identifies himself even before He came and became flesh, take a look at the words He uses, and if they were taken out or changed so would the meaning as well as the understanding of His divinity.....

Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Isaiah 48:12

Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Re 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Re 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Thank you for making my point.

If Rev 11.1 isn't in the text, there are plenty of other places to find the concept. The only thing we lose by not referring to this specific verse is a name that goes on a poster. We do not lose the idea of first and last.

Now, can you do any better with the other verses you've listed?

Well I dont think you looked at the video in the begining which explains how the changes affect what scripture teaches, and these are just a few of the changes. Check out some of the others...

http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html

Here is a another good video to check out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMYpJpaYNrA

So....you don't actually have an answer; you just want to argue that the differences are somehow not to your liking and are therefore evil.

At that point, your argument becomes simple preference rather than any greater issue into which you desire to make it.
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HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
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I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
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« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2009, 10:06:10 AM »


Matt 17:21
Matt 18:11
Matt 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
Acts 8:37
Acts 15:34
Acts 28:29
Romans 16:24

Would you be kind enough to tell us what critical theological point we would lose if these verses never existed?

Quote
Also, look at Rev 1:11, which I have always memorized as: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end." That phrase is also missing from the NRSV.

Other than a name for a poster, what do we miss here?

Quote
Textus Receptus was - and still is - the enemy of the Roman Church. This is an important fact to bear in mind...."

What does this have to do with anything?



Well, I would say thats how many false doctrines and beliefs got started, take out a verse here or a chapter there. What difference does it make....? Well you have to look at what it was that they wanted to shade or shape to their liking or 'tradition'. Take a look at the worship of idols which is strictly forbidden not just in the Commandments but in many places in scripture and the 'adoration' of the mother of Christ which goes beyond anything even hinted at in scripture, to say nothing of the elevation of a man in place of what is the domain of the divine and you can see what can happen...

That's not what I asked you.

What, specifically, theological point would we be missing?

Is there one?

Bump.....

If someone wanted to systematically take out the words and text showing the divinity of Christ, I would think that would be a significant thelogical point......

Which specific theological point would we miss? What point of doctrine? What critical aspect of the faith?

Is there one, or do you simply want to argue academic issues?

So do you think Christ was just a man, then his life and death would not hold eternal life for the world, or is that just a academic issue to you?
Is it that difficult for you to answer a simple question?

Demonstrate that the list of verses you provided, if they had never existed, would change our theology.

Christ identifies himself even before He came and became flesh, take a look at the words He uses, and if they were taken out or changed so would the meaning as well as the understanding of His divinity.....

Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Isaiah 48:12

Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Re 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Re 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Thank you for making my point.

If Rev 11.1 isn't in the text, there are plenty of other places to find the concept. The only thing we lose by not referring to this specific verse is a name that goes on a poster. We do not lose the idea of first and last.

Now, can you do any better with the other verses you've listed?

Well I dont think you looked at the video in the begining which explains how the changes affect what scripture teaches, and these are just a few of the changes. Check out some of the others...

http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html

Here is a another good video to check out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMYpJpaYNrA

So....you don't actually have an answer; you just want to argue that the differences are somehow not to your liking and are therefore evil.

At that point, your argument becomes simple preference rather than any greater issue into which you desire to make it.

If you take out the divinity or identification of Jesus Christ or let some of the ideas of Arianism in your version, how would you teach what scripture says to someone who is new christian. It is important, especially for teaching and understanding what is being presented..
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Tantor
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« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2009, 10:06:17 AM »

You need to remember that Hobie is a SDA.. so they are out to lunch to begin with.  Much of their doctrine is based on translational errors in the KJV and if they would deny the KJV the teachings of their prophetess will crumble like a house of cards.

So consider the source when you deal with Hobie.

This just reminds me of all the cults that the KJV has spawned over the years..

Which for me is just more evidence about how Satan influenced the translators of the KJV.
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« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2009, 10:06:17 AM »

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Hobie
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« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2009, 10:12:27 AM »

You need to remember that Hobie is a SDA.. so they are out to lunch to begin with.  Much of their doctrine is based on translational errors in the KJV and if they would deny the KJV the teachings of their prophetess will crumble like a house of cards.

So consider the source when you deal with Hobie.

This just reminds me of all the cults that the KJV has spawned over the years..

Which for me is just more evidence about how Satan influenced the translators of the KJV.

And throwing out ALL the scripture helps how.....
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Tantor
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« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2009, 10:18:17 AM »

You need to remember that Hobie is a SDA.. so they are out to lunch to begin with.  Much of their doctrine is based on translational errors in the KJV and if they would deny the KJV the teachings of their prophetess will crumble like a house of cards.

So consider the source when you deal with Hobie.

This just reminds me of all the cults that the KJV has spawned over the years..

Which for me is just more evidence about how Satan influenced the translators of the KJV.

And throwing out the all the scripture helps how.....

Who said to throw it out?... I'm just adamant that we must reframe our understanding of ancient texts within the context and culture of when they were written and to whom.  When we put them all together we tend to divorce them from their original meanings and make mistakes by trying to harmonize them.  We also tend to develop intricate doctrines from them while forgetting what the 1st and 2nd century churches believed and how they acted and lived.

Now we have so many denominations and cults that have arisen from the 'divinci code' syndrome that I call it.. people think the bible is some sort of book of mystery to be decoded and our human needs to understand all things causes us to go beyond that was originally taught and understood and to develop our own house of doctrinal cards.  When then reject any evidence that may put a dent in our doctrine, even if plain logic would dictate otherwise.

For me, the teachings of Polycarp, Justin the Martyr, Iraneus, etc ( 1st, 2nd and 3rd century apostles.. prior to the romanization of the church) shine a blinding light on the errors that most modern day christians interpret from scripture.

And then there is the problem that we really don't possess any true scriptures do we?.. we only possess poor copies of them.
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HRoberson
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« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2009, 07:57:54 PM »


Matt 17:21
Matt 18:11
Matt 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
Acts 8:37
Acts 15:34
Acts 28:29
Romans 16:24

Would you be kind enough to tell us what critical theological point we would lose if these verses never existed?

Quote
Also, look at Rev 1:11, which I have always memorized as: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end." That phrase is also missing from the NRSV.

Other than a name for a poster, what do we miss here?

Quote
Textus Receptus was - and still is - the enemy of the Roman Church. This is an important fact to bear in mind...."

What does this have to do with anything?



Well, I would say thats how many false doctrines and beliefs got started, take out a verse here or a chapter there. What difference does it make....? Well you have to look at what it was that they wanted to shade or shape to their liking or 'tradition'. Take a look at the worship of idols which is strictly forbidden not just in the Commandments but in many places in scripture and the 'adoration' of the mother of Christ which goes beyond anything even hinted at in scripture, to say nothing of the elevation of a man in place of what is the domain of the divine and you can see what can happen...

That's not what I asked you.

What, specifically, theological point would we be missing?

Is there one?

Bump.....

If someone wanted to systematically take out the words and text showing the divinity of Christ, I would think that would be a significant thelogical point......

Which specific theological point would we miss? What point of doctrine? What critical aspect of the faith?

Is there one, or do you simply want to argue academic issues?

So do you think Christ was just a man, then his life and death would not hold eternal life for the world, or is that just a academic issue to you?
Is it that difficult for you to answer a simple question?

Demonstrate that the list of verses you provided, if they had never existed, would change our theology.

Christ identifies himself even before He came and became flesh, take a look at the words He uses, and if they were taken out or changed so would the meaning as well as the understanding of His divinity.....

Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Isaiah 48:12

Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Re 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Re 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Thank you for making my point.

If Rev 11.1 isn't in the text, there are plenty of other places to find the concept. The only thing we lose by not referring to this specific verse is a name that goes on a poster. We do not lose the idea of first and last.

Now, can you do any better with the other verses you've listed?

Well I dont think you looked at the video in the begining which explains how the changes affect what scripture teaches, and these are just a few of the changes. Check out some of the others...

http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html

Here is a another good video to check out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMYpJpaYNrA

So....you don't actually have an answer; you just want to argue that the differences are somehow not to your liking and are therefore evil.

At that point, your argument becomes simple preference rather than any greater issue into which you desire to make it.

If you take out the divinity or identification of Jesus Christ or let some of the ideas of Arianism in your version, how would you teach what scripture says to someone who is new christian. It is important, especially for teaching and understanding what is being presented..

OK, let's try this again.....Forget about the dodges and the obfuscation....and simply provide a theological point that we would no longer have if the verses you referenced never existed.
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« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2009, 07:57:54 PM »

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« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2009, 04:55:45 AM »

None of you can answer HR last question.  That is because you are still basing your beliefs upon a preconceived doctorine before you read whatever translation it is that you prefer.
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« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2009, 07:28:26 PM »


Matt 17:21
Matt 18:11
Matt 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
Acts 8:37
Acts 15:34
Acts 28:29
Romans 16:24

Would you be kind enough to tell us what critical theological point we would lose if these verses never existed?

Quote
Also, look at Rev 1:11, which I have always memorized as: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end." That phrase is also missing from the NRSV.

Other than a name for a poster, what do we miss here?

Quote
Textus Receptus was - and still is - the enemy of the Roman Church. This is an important fact to bear in mind...."

What does this have to do with anything?



Well, I would say thats how many false doctrines and beliefs got started, take out a verse here or a chapter there. What difference does it make....? Well you have to look at what it was that they wanted to shade or shape to their liking or 'tradition'. Take a look at the worship of idols which is strictly forbidden not just in the Commandments but in many places in scripture and the 'adoration' of the mother of Christ which goes beyond anything even hinted at in scripture, to say nothing of the elevation of a man in place of what is the domain of the divine and you can see what can happen...

That's not what I asked you.

What, specifically, theological point would we be missing?

Is there one?

Bump.....

If someone wanted to systematically take out the words and text showing the divinity of Christ, I would think that would be a significant thelogical point......

Which specific theological point would we miss? What point of doctrine? What critical aspect of the faith?

Is there one, or do you simply want to argue academic issues?

So do you think Christ was just a man, then his life and death would not hold eternal life for the world, or is that just a academic issue to you?
Is it that difficult for you to answer a simple question?

Demonstrate that the list of verses you provided, if they had never existed, would change our theology.

Christ identifies himself even before He came and became flesh, take a look at the words He uses, and if they were taken out or changed so would the meaning as well as the understanding of His divinity.....

Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Isaiah 48:12

Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Re 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Re 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Thank you for making my point.

If Rev 11.1 isn't in the text, there are plenty of other places to find the concept. The only thing we lose by not referring to this specific verse is a name that goes on a poster. We do not lose the idea of first and last.

Now, can you do any better with the other verses you've listed?

Well I dont think you looked at the video in the begining which explains how the changes affect what scripture teaches, and these are just a few of the changes. Check out some of the others...

http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html

Here is a another good video to check out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMYpJpaYNrA

So....you don't actually have an answer; you just want to argue that the differences are somehow not to your liking and are therefore evil.

At that point, your argument becomes simple preference rather than any greater issue into which you desire to make it.

If you take out the divinity or identification of Jesus Christ or let some of the ideas of Arianism in your version, how would you teach what scripture says to someone who is new christian. It is important, especially for teaching and understanding what is being presented..

OK, let's try this again.....Forget about the dodges and the obfuscation....and simply provide a theological point that we would no longer have if the verses you referenced never existed.

Ok, lets take these verses and see what points they show...
These verses make clear that identifying Himself as the First and Last shows (1) Jesus is Jehovah God  (2) Jesus is the Creator as He was there at the start or the begining (3) As Creator when Jesus declares Himself 'Lord of the Sabbath' it is in the literal sense as He created the Sabbath and made it Holy. (4) Jesus as Jehovah was there at the beggining with Adam and Eve and gave them a understanding of what sin was, or the transgression of the Law(5) Jesus as Jehovah wrote the 10 Commandments with His own finger so when He says 'If you love me keep my Commandments' they literaly are His.


Just a few points to ponder...

Now lets look at what happens if you make a few changes....in this case to allow the worship of idols in the church and obscure the Sabbath...

The list below shows the Ten Commandments as personally spoken and written by God using the King James translation and then below that the Ten Commandments as changed by the Roman Catholic Church in their teachings.


Bible Ten Commandments

1st I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2nd Exodus 20:4-6 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my Commandments.
 
3rd Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God In vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4th Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
 
5th Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
 
6th Thou shalt not kill.
 
7th Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8th Thou shalt not steal.
 
9th Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
 
10th Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.



Catholic Ten Commandments
 1st I am the LORD thy God. Thou shalt have no strange gods before Me.
 2nd    (Deleted and all remaining Commandments are therefore shifted along one count so the 3rd replaces it)  Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.
 3rd Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
(The Sabbath is fourth by normal count. The day to be kept is no longer mentioned since they changed the Sabbath to Sunday.)
 4th Honour thy father and thy mother.
 5th Thou shalt not kill.
 6th Thou shalt not commit adultery.
 7th Thou shalt not steal.
 8th Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
 9th Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.

(The Tenth Commandment is split into two to get back to Ten Commandments.)
 
    10th Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods.

 
 You will note that they deleted the second Commandment and changed God's Sabbath commandment so any day can be the Sabbath and split the tenth Commandment into two to get back to Ten Commandments. As a result the Roman Catholic version of the Ten Commandments is always one ahead of the King James in the Decalogue until the tenth Commandment when they break it into two and make it the ninth and tenth Commandments.

The following from the Catholic Encyclopaedia Vol. 4, p. 153 also confirms the deletion of the second Commandment and the change of the fourth. “The church, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath of the seventh day of the week to the first made the third commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day.”

The Catholic version is the column on the right hand side titled “A Traditional Catechetical Formula.”
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

So to say that a few changes doesnt affect theological points is a bit naive to say the least..



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