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Author Topic: Old Earth Creationism  (Read 2639 times)
Becki
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2009, 03:44:58 PM »

larry2 - What makes you think it was not global?

Genesis 7:18  And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 7:19  And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Genesis 7:20  Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
How about the fact that 15 cubits is only like 20-25 feet?  Or is that detail wrong?

Actually, something has to be wrong here...
If the water only rose 15 cubits, it would not have covered all the mountains on earth.
Unless of course, the highest mountain was less than 15 cubits high, which I seriously doubt.

Jarrod

Even if you don't know the exact measurement that can be attributed to a cubit, you can always try some common sense.

Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.   -GN 6:14-15


So, the length of the ark was 20 times the height it took to cover the highest mountain, the breadth was over 3 times the height it took to cover the highest mountain and the height of the ark itself was twice the height it took to cover the tallest mountain.


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Becki
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2009, 07:56:03 PM »

"He just created a shapeless blob of matter in Genesis 1:1; that’s why it is formless and void."

That is what man has said too many times.

This is what the LORD says in Isaiah 45:18:

For thus saith the LORD That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Compare that to Genesis 1:1-2

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. 


Doesn’t sound like He created something formless and void. He formed it to be inhabited in the beginning.



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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2009, 07:56:03 PM »

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larry2
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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2009, 09:32:12 PM »

CiscoKid - I'm not so sure there are very high mountains in the region of the author....I'm sure Moses [or whoever] wasn't aware of Mt. Everest ;)

larry2 - But you see, God was aware of its height, and regardless whether Moses or whoever wrote the words, we're told in 2 Timothy 3:16:  "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." The mountains were covered; God said it, and that's good enough for me.  Smile

In Jesus' name - larry2
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Becki
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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2009, 03:21:30 PM »

Psalms 78:

1  Give ear, O my People, to my law:
    Incline your ears to the words of my mouth.

I will open my mouth in a parable:
    I will utter dark sayings of old.


3  Which we have heard and known,
    And our fathers have told us.

4  We will not hide them from their children,
    Shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD,
    And His strength, and His wonderful works that He hath done.


Matthew 13:

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake He not unto them:

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, “I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.


The dark sayings of old are the things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

The foundation of something is the establishment of it.


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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2009, 02:06:01 PM »

Psalms 78:

1  Give ear, O my People, to my law:
    Incline your ears to the words of my mouth.

I will open my mouth in a parable:
    I will utter dark sayings of old.


3  Which we have heard and known,
    And our fathers have told us.

4  We will not hide them from their children,
    Shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD,
    And His strength, and His wonderful works that He hath done.


Matthew 13:

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake He not unto them:

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, “I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.


The dark sayings of old are the things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

The foundation of something is the establishment of it.

Very appropriate quote Becki.

You seem to take a much more literal approach than I do, so this surprised me, coming from you.
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2009, 02:36:25 PM »

CiscoKid - I'm not so sure there are very high mountains in the region of the author....I'm sure Moses [or whoever] wasn't aware of Mt. Everest ;)

larry2 - But you see, God was aware of its height, and regardless whether Moses or whoever wrote the words, we're told in 2 Timothy 3:16:  "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." The mountains were covered; God said it, and that's good enough for me.  Smile

In Jesus' name - larry2

Mt. Arrarat is a little over 17,000 feet, about 3000 feet higher than anything in the lower U.S.  Given that Noah started somewhere in the vicinity of sea level, that would mean that water poured into the area where he was at the rate of 400+ feet a day.  If you were in NYC, the water after the first day would be at the fortieth floor of the sky scrapers.  Have you any idea what that amount of water running down of of the mountain would do to anything at the foot of it?
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2009, 02:36:25 PM »

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« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2009, 05:25:53 PM »

Psalms 78:

1  Give ear, O my People, to my law:
    Incline your ears to the words of my mouth.

I will open my mouth in a parable:
    I will utter dark sayings of old.


3  Which we have heard and known,
    And our fathers have told us.

4  We will not hide them from their children,
    Shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD,
    And His strength, and His wonderful works that He hath done.


Matthew 13:

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake He not unto them:

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, “I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.


The dark sayings of old are the things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

The foundation of something is the establishment of it.

Very appropriate quote Becki.

You seem to take a much more literal approach than I do, so this surprised me, coming from you.



moses was meant to be literal.  Paul was meant to be explained.
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« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2009, 08:51:21 PM »

Psalms 78:

1  Give ear, O my People, to my law:
    Incline your ears to the words of my mouth.

I will open my mouth in a parable:
    I will utter dark sayings of old.


3  Which we have heard and known,
    And our fathers have told us.

4  We will not hide them from their children,
    Shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD,
    And His strength, and His wonderful works that He hath done.


Matthew 13:

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake He not unto them:

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, “I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.


The dark sayings of old are the things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

The foundation of something is the establishment of it.

Very appropriate quote Becki.

You seem to take a much more literal approach than I do, so this surprised me, coming from you.



moses was meant to be literal.  Paul was meant to be explained.

 Rolling on floor laughing
 Rolling on floor laughing
 Rolling on floor laughing
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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2009, 08:22:35 AM »

Genesis 7:19
"Fifteen cubits upwards did the waters prevail; the mountains were covered."
This verse is saying water were 15 cubits above the highest mountains top.

"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water perished."
II Peter 3:6  (see Psalms 104:6)

One must remember before the flood of Noah the earth was quite different.  They was a canopy of water (Genesis 1:6-7) above the heavens which caused healthier and longer life for the inhabitant of the earth.  This canopy of water if it were open up would have help to fill the earth in no time flat, let alone forty days (Genesis 8:2),



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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2009, 02:21:17 PM »

Genesis 7:19
"Fifteen cubits upwards did the waters prevail; the mountains were covered."
This verse is saying water were 15 cubits above the highest mountains top.

"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water perished."
II Peter 3:6  (see Psalms 104:6)

One must remember before the flood of Noah the earth was quite different.  They was a canopy of water (Genesis 1:6-7) above the heavens which caused healthier and longer life for the inhabitant of the earth.  This canopy of water if it were open up would have help to fill the earth in no time flat, let alone forty days (Genesis 8:2),

The pressure increases as you go down into the water at a rate of approximately .5 psi/foot of depth.  If there were enough water to just cover Mt Arrarat at 17,000 ft altitude, the pressure at what is now sea level would have been about 8,000 psi.  Now since mass is mass and does not change. if all that water were initially above the earth before the flood, no matter how it was distributed in altitude ithe integrated effect would be to produce at sea level a pressure of about 8,000 psi.  Even more the amount of light that would penetrate that much water is essentially zero.  The entire earth would have been pitch black.  Now do you really believe that before the flood the earth was in absolute darkness existing under an atmospheric pressure of 8,000 psi?  You can believe what you will, but that does not sound like a climatic condition for longer and healthier lives.
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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2009, 02:21:17 PM »

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Ciscokid
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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2009, 08:08:57 AM »

Genesis 7:19
"Fifteen cubits upwards did the waters prevail; the mountains were covered."
This verse is saying water were 15 cubits above the highest mountains top.

"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water perished."
II Peter 3:6  (see Psalms 104:6)

One must remember before the flood of Noah the earth was quite different.  They was a canopy of water (Genesis 1:6-7) above the heavens which caused healthier and longer life for the inhabitant of the earth.  This canopy of water if it were open up would have help to fill the earth in no time flat, let alone forty days (Genesis 8:2),

The pressure increases as you go down into the water at a rate of approximately .5 psi/foot of depth.  If there were enough water to just cover Mt Arrarat at 17,000 ft altitude, the pressure at what is now sea level would have been about 8,000 psi.  Now since mass is mass and does not change. if all that water were initially above the earth before the flood, no matter how it was distributed in altitude ithe integrated effect would be to produce at sea level a pressure of about 8,000 psi.  Even more the amount of light that would penetrate that much water is essentially zero.  The entire earth would have been pitch black.  Now do you really believe that before the flood the earth was in absolute darkness existing under an atmospheric pressure of 8,000 psi?  You can believe what you will, but that does not sound like a climatic condition for longer and healthier lives.



The flood is a catch all time period for extreme havock on planet earth.  They claim that the continents broke apart in this short period of time, they ignore the fact that there would be earthquakes that would send Noah and crew sinking. 

We know there have been massive meteors that pounded the earth sending hemisphere's into global nuclear winters....when did this happen?  During the flood.  When you have a magic wand to wave it helps you get through all these devastating consequences I guess.
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« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2009, 08:13:41 AM »

Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin',
But I'll know my song well before I start singin',
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
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« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2009, 08:19:23 AM »

Genesis 7:19
"Fifteen cubits upwards did the waters prevail; the mountains were covered."
This verse is saying water were 15 cubits above the highest mountains top.

"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water perished."
II Peter 3:6  (see Psalms 104:6)

One must remember before the flood of Noah the earth was quite different.  They was a canopy of water (Genesis 1:6-7) above the heavens which caused healthier and longer life for the inhabitant of the earth.  This canopy of water if it were open up would have help to fill the earth in no time flat, let alone forty days (Genesis 8:2),

The pressure increases as you go down into the water at a rate of approximately .5 psi/foot of depth.  If there were enough water to just cover Mt Arrarat at 17,000 ft altitude, the pressure at what is now sea level would have been about 8,000 psi.  Now since mass is mass and does not change. if all that water were initially above the earth before the flood, no matter how it was distributed in altitude ithe integrated effect would be to produce at sea level a pressure of about 8,000 psi.  Even more the amount of light that would penetrate that much water is essentially zero.  The entire earth would have been pitch black.  Now do you really believe that before the flood the earth was in absolute darkness existing under an atmospheric pressure of 8,000 psi?  You can believe what you will, but that does not sound like a climatic condition for longer and healthier lives.



The flood is a catch all time period for extreme havock on planet earth.  They claim that the continents broke apart in this short period of time, they ignore the fact that there would be earthquakes that would send Noah and crew sinking. 

We know there have been massive meteors that pounded the earth sending hemisphere's into global nuclear winters....when did this happen?  During the flood.  When you have a magic wand to wave it helps you get through all these devastating consequences I guess.

Yes,  there is no end to the limits that some go to invent solutions to the really silly problems presented by the YE propositions.  It would be absolutely hilarious, except that they are serious.  They hear or read this stuff and repeat it without any idea of just how irrational it all is.
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« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2009, 08:19:23 AM »

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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2009, 08:01:48 PM »

A discussion ensued beginning on this page in the process of discussing Noah's flood:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,34465.135.html

I believe there is reconciliation between the Word of God and the geographical history of the earth, and that the flood of Noah is not always the flood to which God refers in His Word. I believe this reconciliation strongly supports Old Earth Creationism.

Is there a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?

If one adheres to Young Earth Creationism, how do you explain the existence of fossil remains from millions of years ago?

Is there evidence of a worldwide flood at the time of Noah?

I would appreciate more opinions on this subject.

Thank You



First of all carbon dating is not accurate. Secondly the Bible supports a young earth. Third, the gap theory will not stand up to an indepth reading of the Scriptures. The Gap Theory argues that there is a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, during which there lived successive generations of plants, animals, and perhaps pre-Adamite men (though see 1 Corinthians 15:45). According to some, God destroyed this original creation due to a Satanic rebellion. Genesis 1:2ff, therefore, is supposed to describe a re-creation, while the gap between 1:1 and 1:2 allows for the ancient fossils of the geological time column.
There is absolutely no biblical basis for this compromising theory. There are several important grammatical considerations in Genesis 1 that militate against the Gap Theory.
(1) Genesis 1:2 begins with "and" (Hebrew waw, a copulative) which argues against a long span between these verses. The Hebrew grammars and lexicons consider 1:2 to be an explanatory noun clause which describes a state contemporaneous with that of the main verb in verse 1 (cf, Weston Fields, Unformed and Unfilled, pp. 75-86).
(2) Note Genesis 1:26.; Man was given dominion over all of the earth and every creature upon it. This is not consistent with the notion that many generations of living creatures, over which man hadno dominion, had already died and become extinct by the time humanity arrived upon the earth.
(3) In 1:31 Moses wrote: " Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good." At the end of the creation week, everything that God had made was still alive upon the earth. Moreover, it was pronounced "very good." Corruption, death, and extinction had not degraded the creation yet.
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« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2009, 07:08:36 AM »

A discussion ensued beginning on this page in the process of discussing Noah's flood:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,34465.135.html

I believe there is reconciliation between the Word of God and the geographical history of the earth, and that the flood of Noah is not always the flood to which God refers in His Word. I believe this reconciliation strongly supports Old Earth Creationism.

Is there a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?

If one adheres to Young Earth Creationism, how do you explain the existence of fossil remains from millions of years ago?

Is there evidence of a worldwide flood at the time of Noah?

I would appreciate more opinions on this subject.

Thank You



First of all carbon dating is not accurate.

And you know this how?  You really need to look further into the whole field of radiometric dating techniques.  A good place to start is the following:

Radiometric Dating - A Christian Perspective
by Dr. Roger C. Wiens

http://www.reasons.org/files/roger_wiens_radiometric_dating.pdf

The young earth assailing of carbon dating is just plain bogus.  It is quite good as are the many, many other radiometric dating techniques.

Secondly the Bible supports a young earth.

Not really.


Third, the gap theory will not stand up to an indepth reading of the Scriptures. The Gap Theory argues that there is a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, during which there lived successive generations of plants, animals, and perhaps pre-Adamite men (though see 1 Corinthians 15:45). According to some, God destroyed this original creation due to a Satanic rebellion. Genesis 1:2ff, therefore, is supposed to describe a re-creation, while the gap between 1:1 and 1:2 allows for the ancient fossils of the geological time column.
There is absolutely no biblical basis for this compromising theory. There are several important grammatical considerations in Genesis 1 that militate against the Gap Theory.
(1) Genesis 1:2 begins with "and" (Hebrew waw, a copulative) which argues against a long span between these verses. The Hebrew grammars and lexicons consider 1:2 to be an explanatory noun clause which describes a state contemporaneous with that of the main verb in verse 1 (cf, Weston Fields, Unformed and Unfilled, pp. 75-86).
(2) Note Genesis 1:26.; Man was given dominion over all of the earth and every creature upon it. This is not consistent with the notion that many generations of living creatures, over which man hadno dominion, had already died and become extinct by the time humanity arrived upon the earth.
(3) In 1:31 Moses wrote: " Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good." At the end of the creation week, everything that God had made was still alive upon the earth.

I agree.  The gap theory is not a very good one.  However, we now know from good solid data obtained recently in the WMAP Satallite studies that the universe is about 14 billion years old.  That goes to support literally dozens of other techniques used to estimate the age of the universe.

Take a look at

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/

You might find it interesting.

Moreover, it was pronounced "very good." Corruption, death, and extinction had not degraded the creation yet.

Yes it was pronounced "very good" and it has never been pronounced otherwise.  The idea that the sin of Adam could have had any influence on the creation at large is really quite ridiculous.  It is amusing how such a weird notion can keep popping up.
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