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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2009, 12:52:43 PM »

First of all carbon dating is not accurate.
You're not qualified to say that without providing either citations or credentials.

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Secondly the Bible supports a young earth.
Only if you read early Genesis as literal history.  Since it was written before "history" as we think of it, was even a literary form, this is a doubtful paradigm from which to interpret these passages.

This can be demonstrated by the utter lack of non-mythos historical documents unearthed dating prior to the 1st millennium BC.

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Third, the gap theory will not stand up to an indepth reading of the Scriptures. The Gap Theory argues that there is a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, during which there lived successive generations of plants, animals, and perhaps pre-Adamite men (though see 1 Corinthians 15:45). According to some, God destroyed this original creation due to a Satanic rebellion. Genesis 1:2ff, therefore, is supposed to describe a re-creation, while the gap between 1:1 and 1:2 allows for the ancient fossils of the geological time column.

There is absolutely no biblical basis for this compromising theory. There are several important grammatical considerations in Genesis 1 that militate against the Gap Theory.
(1) Genesis 1:2 begins with "and" (Hebrew waw, a copulative) which argues against a long span between these verses. The Hebrew grammars and lexicons consider 1:2 to be an explanatory noun clause which describes a state contemporaneous with that of the main verb in verse 1 (cf, Weston Fields, Unformed and Unfilled, pp. 75-86).
(2) Note Genesis 1:26.; Man was given dominion over all of the earth and every creature upon it. This is not consistent with the notion that many generations of living creatures, over which man hadno dominion, had already died and become extinct by the time humanity arrived upon the earth.
I agree with all of this.  Good post.

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(3) In 1:31 Moses wrote: " Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good." At the end of the creation week, everything that God had made was still alive upon the earth. Moreover, it was pronounced "very good." Corruption, death, and extinction had not degraded the creation yet.
I can't get behind that last sentence.  Entropy seems to be a constant of existence - mathematically, everything seeks to go back to a zero sum (nature abhors a vacuum).

No animals died before there were people?  The evidence against it in the fossil record alone is somewhat overwhelming.  For instance, the article in that other thread about the lemur-monkey transitional form.  Mathematically, the population explosion of animals would have overrun the earth.  But then, I suppose if you're saying that man was literally created only 3 days after the first animals, you don't have that problem.

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Parepidemos
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« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2009, 02:00:56 PM »

Amazing that it took 5,800 year of earth history to figure out that God did not mean what He said in Genesis. Who knows what are super minds will discover in the Bible next since we understand it better than the savages that God used to write it. Maybe baptism has nothing to do with water but is actually being thrown off a building. Maybe during communion we should eat the pastor. Or maybe Jews are a secret alien race form Venus. I guess if global flood means local flood and day means billions of years and their are secret gaps not mentioned in the Bible we are supposed to know about than anything could mean anything. Genesis is clear for anyone who wants to know what it says and not what it can be made to say. To paraphrase John MacArthur, Don't give me any of this poetry, allegory, or non-literal garbage just say you don't believe it.
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« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2009, 02:00:56 PM »

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Jimmy
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« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2009, 02:36:29 PM »

Amazing that it took 5,800 year of earth history to figure out that God did not mean what He said in Genesis. Who knows what are super minds will discover in the Bible next since we understand it better than the savages that God used to write it. Maybe baptism has nothing to do with water but is actually being thrown off a building. Maybe during communion we should eat the pastor. Or maybe Jews are a secret alien race form Venus. I guess if global flood means local flood and day means billions of years and their are secret gaps not mentioned in the Bible we are supposed to know about than anything could mean anything. Genesis is clear for anyone who wants to know what it says and not what it can be made to say. To paraphrase John MacArthur, Don't give me any of this poetry, allegory, or non-literal garbage just say you don't believe it.

Gen 41:57  And the people of all the earth came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth.

That must have been some famine and it was really a long walk from the americas over there to Egypt to by grain.  As you said, it means what it says.
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Parepidemos
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« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2009, 04:51:40 PM »

Amazing that it took 5,800 year of earth history to figure out that God did not mean what He said in Genesis. Who knows what are super minds will discover in the Bible next since we understand it better than the savages that God used to write it. Maybe baptism has nothing to do with water but is actually being thrown off a building. Maybe during communion we should eat the pastor. Or maybe Jews are a secret alien race form Venus. I guess if global flood means local flood and day means billions of years and their are secret gaps not mentioned in the Bible we are supposed to know about than anything could mean anything. Genesis is clear for anyone who wants to know what it says and not what it can be made to say. To paraphrase John MacArthur, Don't give me any of this poetry, allegory, or non-literal garbage just say you don't believe it.

Gen 41:57  And the people of all the earth came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth.

That must have been some famine and it was really a long walk from the americas over there to Egypt to by grain.  As you said, it means what it says.

Yes indeed it was a great famine. And all the peoples did come. In time of severe famine, if necessary, you would travel half way around the world for food. Further, your talking like an evolutionist. People back then had faster ways to travel than on foot. It would take a while but if your starving to death there would be people from all nations going where the food is.
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Jimmy
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« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2009, 05:28:16 PM »

Amazing that it took 5,800 year of earth history to figure out that God did not mean what He said in Genesis. Who knows what are super minds will discover in the Bible next since we understand it better than the savages that God used to write it. Maybe baptism has nothing to do with water but is actually being thrown off a building. Maybe during communion we should eat the pastor. Or maybe Jews are a secret alien race form Venus. I guess if global flood means local flood and day means billions of years and their are secret gaps not mentioned in the Bible we are supposed to know about than anything could mean anything. Genesis is clear for anyone who wants to know what it says and not what it can be made to say. To paraphrase John MacArthur, Don't give me any of this poetry, allegory, or non-literal garbage just say you don't believe it.

Gen 41:57  And the people of all the earth came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth.

That must have been some famine and it was really a long walk from the americas over there to Egypt to by grain.  As you said, it means what it says.

Yes indeed it was a great famine. And all the peoples did come. In time of severe famine, if necessary, you would travel half way around the world for food. Further, your talking like an evolutionist. People back then had faster ways to travel than on foot. It would take a while but if your starving to death there would be people from all nations going where the food is.

Ok, I'll bite.  So how did the Mexicans get to Egypt?
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Parepidemos
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« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2009, 05:44:15 PM »

Amazing that it took 5,800 year of earth history to figure out that God did not mean what He said in Genesis. Who knows what are super minds will discover in the Bible next since we understand it better than the savages that God used to write it. Maybe baptism has nothing to do with water but is actually being thrown off a building. Maybe during communion we should eat the pastor. Or maybe Jews are a secret alien race form Venus. I guess if global flood means local flood and day means billions of years and their are secret gaps not mentioned in the Bible we are supposed to know about than anything could mean anything. Genesis is clear for anyone who wants to know what it says and not what it can be made to say. To paraphrase John MacArthur, Don't give me any of this poetry, allegory, or non-literal garbage just say you don't believe it.

Gen 41:57  And the people of all the earth came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth.

That must have been some famine and it was really a long walk from the americas over there to Egypt to by grain.  As you said, it means what it says.

Yes indeed it was a great famine. And all the peoples did come. In time of severe famine, if necessary, you would travel half way around the world for food. Further, your talking like an evolutionist. People back then had faster ways to travel than on foot. It would take a while but if your starving to death there would be people from all nations going where the food is.

Ok, I'll bite.  So how did the Mexicans get to Egypt?

They may not have come from Mexico to get there but were originally from there. They also would have had boats. There may have also been a land bridge (people claim there was connecting Alaska and Russia but I don't know if it's true). It also could be that the people of all the earth could be counted in a wide variety rather than from specific nations such as those in South America. It could be all peoples could include all nations (America, England, Israel) or ethnicity (Anglo-Saxon, Negroid) or continental (South American, North American, Asian). I further do not oppose using figures of speech it is just irrational to assume that the whole account of creation plus the story of Noah is a figure of speech or poem or allegory. If something is written as history it is literal history but can contain figures of speech but cannot be entirely figurative. We further must have some context which suggests it is figurative or we are arbitrary.
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« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2009, 05:44:15 PM »

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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2009, 06:16:25 PM »

I do not oppose using figures of speech it is just irrational to assume that the whole account of creation plus the story of Noah is a figure of speech or poem or allegory. If something is written as history it is literal history but can contain figures of speech but cannot be entirely figurative. We further must have some context which suggests it is figurative or we are arbitrary.
Figure of speech?  That would be irrational.

Poem...that's easily identifiable by just looking at the text.  If it contains features of poetry then its a poem.  Genesis 1:1 - 2:2 is a poem.  The rest of Genesis is not.  Being a poem doesn't necessarily mean that the whole account isn't a recollection of fact, though it does mean that we should look for poetic devices and interpret them within the framework of being a poetic device.

Allegory...the Jews of most of the major sects interpreted this either allegorical (spiritual meaning only) or typological (literal, but with a spiritual meaning, or future application).  The New Testament writers clearly followed this precedent, by looking at how they use citations of the OT, in the NT.

Historically, there is no differentiation between history and mythology when you go back far enough.  Further, the account of the Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge of G&E bears striking similarities to mythos coming out of Assyria during the period this would have been written.  To be exact, it's an inversion of them.

So, no it didn't take 5800 years to figure out it means something other than what you were taught.  Rather, it seems that interpreting Genesis 1-9 in a fully literal paradigm is an innovation of the RCC, as the vast majority before that point viewed it either typologically or allegorically.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 06:24:08 PM by Wycliffes_Shillelagh » Logged

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Jimmy
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« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2009, 06:31:30 PM »

Amazing that it took 5,800 year of earth history to figure out that God did not mean what He said in Genesis. Who knows what are super minds will discover in the Bible next since we understand it better than the savages that God used to write it. Maybe baptism has nothing to do with water but is actually being thrown off a building. Maybe during communion we should eat the pastor. Or maybe Jews are a secret alien race form Venus. I guess if global flood means local flood and day means billions of years and their are secret gaps not mentioned in the Bible we are supposed to know about than anything could mean anything. Genesis is clear for anyone who wants to know what it says and not what it can be made to say. To paraphrase John MacArthur, Don't give me any of this poetry, allegory, or non-literal garbage just say you don't believe it.

Gen 41:57  And the people of all the earth came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth.

That must have been some famine and it was really a long walk from the americas over there to Egypt to by grain.  As you said, it means what it says.

Yes indeed it was a great famine. And all the peoples did come. In time of severe famine, if necessary, you would travel half way around the world for food. Further, your talking like an evolutionist. People back then had faster ways to travel than on foot. It would take a while but if your starving to death there would be people from all nations going where the food is.

Ok, I'll bite.  So how did the Mexicans get to Egypt?

They may not have come from Mexico to get there but were originally from there. They also would have had boats. There may have also been a land bridge (people claim there was connecting Alaska and Russia but I don't know if it's true). It also could be that the people of all the earth could be counted in a wide variety rather than from specific nations such as those in South America. It could be all peoples could include all nations (America, England, Israel) or ethnicity (Anglo-Saxon, Negroid) or continental (South American, North American, Asian). I further do not oppose using figures of speech it is just irrational to assume that the whole account of creation plus the story of Noah is a figure of speech or poem or allegory. If something is written as history it is literal history but can contain figures of speech but cannot be entirely figurative. We further must have some context which suggests it is figurative or we are arbitrary.

So that's what you think Gen 41:57 means?  OK.  That gives me a headsup on any other threads you particiapate in.
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2009, 06:38:45 PM »

Does it matter that we can geologically / archaelogically demonstrate both the scope and duration of the famine in question? 

If it doesn't include Russia and Argentina does that invalidate the data?
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Jimmy
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« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2009, 08:11:00 PM »

Does it matter that we can geologically / archaelogically demonstrate both the scope and duration of the famine in question?  

If it doesn't include Russia and Argentina does that invalidate the data?

Invalidate what data?  

To me it means that the Hebrew word erets in Gen 41:57 most likely was not a reference to a global famine or that Egypt fed all the nations of the global world.  It most likely means that countries in the region surrounding Egypt encompassing little more than the middle east as we know it today or considerably less was involved.

And in the same way, it means that the flood described as one covering the earth [Hebrew - erets] was on the same order of magnitude, i.e., regional.
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« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2009, 08:11:00 PM »

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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2009, 09:13:30 PM »

I was (facetiously) asking, if the scientific data doesn't show that the famine was global (which it doesn't), should we throw out the data because it's at odds with the statement of "all the earth."
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« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2009, 03:31:22 AM »

I have associated  Young Earth Creationism mostly with Home Schoolers.  There was  a need to refute the lie of Evolution I speak only from my own experience here so I would stand correction.. The teaching has now leaked into the church as a whole, probably because Generation X has moved in.

To me a lie was invented to combat a lie.

            ............. I don't know, what do you think?   
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Jimmy
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« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2009, 06:29:28 AM »

I was (facetiously) asking, if the scientific data doesn't show that the famine was global (which it doesn't), should we throw out the data because it's at odds with the statement of "all the earth."

No we really can't throw out the data.  But we need to invent a bunch of things so that we can take a literal view of it.  Maybe, for example, the split of the super continent, Pangea, actually happened after Joseph's time in Egypt. Maybe even Pangea was much much smaller than was thought because there was still a lot of water left over from the global flood that hadn't evaporated away yet.  Maybe at the time of Joseph, the only land was the middle east.

Shoot, with a little imagination I am sure we can figure out a way for that to happen.  I mean if God could bring all the animals to Noah's ark from all the countries and continents on the earth, surely he could bring the people to get food.  Or we could just call it a miracle of God too wondrous for man to understand.  After all some things about God aren't meant for man to  understand.
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« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2009, 06:29:28 AM »

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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2009, 07:06:42 PM »

I was (facetiously) asking, if the scientific data doesn't show that the famine was global (which it doesn't), should we throw out the data because it's at odds with the statement of "all the earth."

No we really can't throw out the data.  But we need to invent a bunch of things so that we can take a literal view of it.  Maybe, for example, the split of the super continent, Pangea, actually happened after Joseph's time in Egypt. Maybe even Pangea was much much smaller than was thought because there was still a lot of water left over from the global flood that hadn't evaporated away yet.  Maybe at the time of Joseph, the only land was the middle east.

Shoot, with a little imagination I am sure we can figure out a way for that to happen.  I mean if God could bring all the animals to Noah's ark from all the countries and continents on the earth, surely he could bring the people to get food.  Or we could just call it a miracle of God too wondrous for man to understand.  After all some things about God aren't meant for man to  understand.
Lol.  I'm pretty sure that all the animals that didn't exist in Asia were temporarily given wings to get there.  In fact, that would explain the "rain" that was falling from the sky.

Still my favorite was a man who was claiming that the planet Jupiter used to be much much closer to earth, and that the planet had (on a global scale mind you), discharged a huge bolt of static electricity into the earth, which caused extinction, so God had to "recreate" in Genesis 1:2.

No worries
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« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2009, 06:45:50 AM »

Amazing that it took 5,800 year of earth history to figure out that God did not mean what He said in Genesis. Who knows what are super minds will discover in the Bible next since we understand it better than the savages that God used to write it. Maybe baptism has nothing to do with water but is actually being thrown off a building. Maybe during communion we should eat the pastor. Or maybe Jews are a secret alien race form Venus. I guess if global flood means local flood and day means billions of years and their are secret gaps not mentioned in the Bible we are supposed to know about than anything could mean anything. Genesis is clear for anyone who wants to know what it says and not what it can be made to say. To paraphrase John MacArthur, Don't give me any of this poetry, allegory, or non-literal garbage just say you don't believe it.


Exactly!! I mean when God said the "windows of heaven" were opened I really believe there were white paned windows in the sky complete with curtains.
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