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Author Topic: PRESERVATION OF SCRIPTURE  (Read 1427 times)
Doc
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« on: October 28, 2009, 09:23:24 AM »

Over the last 32 years of ministry, I have often been asked about my understanding of the preservation of scripture and resulting translations and versions of the Bible.  My intent, for the purpose of this forum, is to provide a very common sense and understandable approach to a very complex issue.  Therefore, this certainly in no way represents an exhaustive or comprehensive treatment of this subject.  However, hopefully this brief post will provide some insight and help to those who have questions about this matter. 

First, let me make it clear that I am NOT “King James Only”.  I do believe that the King James Bible is a remarkable translation which God has no doubt used for a number of centuries.  The “fruit” of this one translation is absolutely remarkable.  Having said that, I do however maintain that there are some contemporary translations that excel the KJV in some areas. 

But, moving on to the question of preservation.  Again, I will be very brief.

I will begin by saying that INSPIRATION (2Timothy 3:15-17) without PRESERVATION (Psalm 12:6-7) is useless. And vice versa.

2Timothy 3:15-17 is probably the most quoted passage of scripture to support the doctrine of INSPIRATION as it is the only time the word INSPIRATION is found in the New Testament.  But what you may find interesting, is that it has absolutely nothing to do IN THE CONTEXT to the original God-breathed autographs so commonly referred to in the discussions and debates on the inspiration and preservation of scripture. 

The statement “by inspiration” in it’s context, has to do with the Old Testament scriptures that Timothy had been taught as a child, which also in the context are called the Holy Scriptures. 

These absolutely were NOT the original writings of the Hebrew language.  Actually, a very strong case can be made for the fact that Timothy very likely was taught from Greek translations of the Hebrew copies.  No matter what he studied, at best he was taught from copies - many times removed over centuries - from the original Hebrew writings. 

As we can see from scripture itself, the results of original inspiration - 2Peter 1:21 - cannot be limited to the original autographs, but must also be extended to copies of those originals.  2Timothy 3:15-16 makes that fact clear.  So, when folks make the claim that ONLY THE ORIGINALS WERE INSPIRED - that is an incorrect statement - based on scripture itself.  As a result, if God did preserve His Word through these copies - which He must have if we have His Word at all - He certainly allowed admixture of errors to be included in these copies.  The evidence of that fact is irrefutable.  So, the question must be asked, “Can God preserve His Word even when copyist errors are present and variant readings exist among the copies and resulting translations?”  The answer is a resounding YES!  This also pertains to those who claim that original inspiration - “God breathing on” - does not necessarily have to produce flawless perfection in the writing of the original record for God to have successfully communicated His Word to mankind. 

Now, follow me closely.  It was the WORDS of God that were inspired.  It wasn’t about the characters or characteristics of the alphabets of the languages in which they were originally penned - it wasn’t about the materials they were written on - it wasn’t about the ink that was used - it wasn’t even about the men that God used - it was about God’s WORDS. 

And whether God’s WORDS are recorded in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, German, English, Russian, or Chinese - they remain God’s WORDS. 

Words exist in any language for only ONE PURPOSE.  And that is to communicate THOUGHTS.  If a word doesn’t communicate a thought, it is useless.  That’s why the words of scripture do not produce God’s thoughts to the natural man.(See 1Corinthians 2:10-14; 1Thessalonians 2:13; Matthew 13:10-16; to cite just a few.)  It is the THOUGHT the Holy Spirit produces, based on the words that are written, that produces the understanding in the believer.  Without that ENLIGHTENMENT, the Word of God makes no sense - NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE IT IS IN, or how learned or educated the reader.  That is one of the reasons there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. Too many of these folks are trying to teach the printed word without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit of God.

Likewise, no matter what LANGUAGE the manuscripts are recorded or preserved in, the Holy Spirit will take the words as He has preserved them, combined with the prayerful work and scholarship of men of faith, and use them to give the believer the thoughts God wants him/her to have in their language through God-directed translations.  This is - very simply stated - the work of preservation by the Holy Spirit.     

Therefore all of the intricacies and technical nuances of translating and transliterating from one language to the next, etc., etc., is an interesting debate but doesn’t represent “the final answer” on the matter.  Whether you have a KJV, ESV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, Luther, Tyndale, Coverdale, Erasmus, Latin Vulgate, et al, if you are a person of faith diligently seeking God’s will and truth for your life, YOU WILL GET IT. 

People often ask me my opinion regarding the best translation of scripture that is available today in the English language.  My very simple and practical answer is, THE ONE YOU WILL READ, STUDY, LOVE, HIDE IN YOUR HEART, AND DAILY APPLY TO YOUR LIFE.   

BLESSINGS,

Doc
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haveahope
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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2009, 10:43:59 AM »

Excellent post Doc!  I so believe when we seek, God makes sure we find him. And I like your advice about which version to buy.  Wise and humorous! You're a gem!
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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2009, 10:43:59 AM »

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Doc
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2009, 01:20:32 PM »

Excellent post Doc!  I so believe when we seek, God makes sure we find him. And I like your advice about which version to buy.  Wise and humorous! You're a gem!

Thank you, HAH, for your kind words - they are very much appreciated.  You are a blessing.

Doc
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haveahope
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2009, 01:30:52 PM »

Your welcome!  I personally find it so very comforting that my God, the Creator of the Universe wrote a love story called the Bible to me, so that I might KNOW Him.  How to love Him, how to please Him, what His attributes are, what angers Him and that if he could fling the stars in the sky and keep the earth spinning on the exact axis that it does and bring together two minute particles that combine in a miraculous way to create life - SURELY He can make sure His creation has a Preserved FOREVER SETTLED IN HEAVEN WORD of God for the ages to come! AMEN?

blessings to you and yours,
HAH
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Doc
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2009, 01:43:11 PM »

Your welcome!  I personally find it so very comforting that my God, the Creator of the Universe wrote a love story called the Bible to me, so that I might KNOW Him.  How to love Him, how to please Him, what His attributes are, what angers Him and that if he could fling the stars in the sky and keep the earth spinning on the exact axis that it does and bring together two minute particles that combine in a miraculous way to create life - SURELY He can make sure His creation has a Preserved FOREVER SETTLED IN HEAVEN WORD of God for the ages to come! AMEN?

blessings to you and yours,
HAH

Amen, Amen, and Amen! Well said, HAH.  I agree

BLESSINGS,

Doc
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Bonnie
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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2009, 05:53:49 AM »

I enjoyed your post and agree completely with what you've said.  I've always believed God to be bigger than any book and if something in that book is amiss he will let those who seek him diligently know.
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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2009, 05:53:49 AM »

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Doc
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« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2009, 08:14:49 AM »

I enjoyed your post and agree completely with what you've said.  I've always believed God to be bigger than any book and if something in that book is amiss he will let those who seek him diligently know.

I appreciate your feedback.  Have a very blessed day.  Tipping hat

Doc
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Jimmy
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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2009, 08:52:37 AM »

Words exist in any language for only ONE PURPOSE.  And that is to communicate THOUGHTS.  If a word doesn’t communicate a thought, it is useless.  That’s why the words of scripture do not produce God’s thoughts to the natural man.(See 1Corinthians 2:10-14; 1Thessalonians 2:13; Matthew 13:10-16; to cite just a few.)  It is the THOUGHT the Holy Spirit produces, based on the words that are written, that produces the understanding in the believer.  Without that ENLIGHTENMENT, the Word of God makes no sense - NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE IT IS IN, or how learned or educated the reader.  That is one of the reasons there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. Too many of these folks are trying to teach the printed word without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit of God.

I believe what you are promoting there is the doctrine of illumination.  It should be obvious to all that doctrine must be false.  A big reason there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. is that people actually believe in the doctrine of illumination.  They are absolutely convinced beyond all logical argument that they have the truth by virtue of the doctine of illumination.  Yet how many times do we see just here on this forum that two people, both of whom are convinced of their own enlightenment, present conflicting arguments.

I think it is safe to say that the doctrine of illumination is the author of as much or more confusion within the body of Christ that any other single teaching.  And that quite simply because it removes fundamental requirement for effective communication, namely logical discourse.  That is so apparent in discussions such as occur in this forum.  Once someone is convinced that he has the interpretation of God's word by way of enlightenment by the Holy Spirit Himself, that person is deaf to all else, even when it is obvious to all, that he is wrong.

The passages you presented (1 Cor 2 & 1 Thess 2) are not speaking of the hearer of the words but rather the speaker.  That is in both of those, Paul is attesting to his own inspiration.
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Bonnie
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« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2009, 09:05:31 AM »

Words exist in any language for only ONE PURPOSE.  And that is to communicate THOUGHTS.  If a word doesn’t communicate a thought, it is useless.  That’s why the words of scripture do not produce God’s thoughts to the natural man.(See 1Corinthians 2:10-14; 1Thessalonians 2:13; Matthew 13:10-16; to cite just a few.)  It is the THOUGHT the Holy Spirit produces, based on the words that are written, that produces the understanding in the believer.  Without that ENLIGHTENMENT, the Word of God makes no sense - NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE IT IS IN, or how learned or educated the reader.  That is one of the reasons there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. Too many of these folks are trying to teach the printed word without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit of God.

I believe what you are promoting there is the doctrine of illumination.  It should be obvious to all that doctrine must be false.  A big reason there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. is that people actually believe in the doctrine of illumination.  They are absolutely convinced beyond all logical argument that they have the truth by virtue of the doctine of illumination.  Yet how many times do we see just here on this forum that two people, both of whom are convinced of their own enlightenment, present conflicting arguments.

I think it is safe to say that the doctrine of illumination is the author of as much or more confusion within the body of Christ that any other single teaching.  And that quite simply because it removes fundamental requirement for effective communication, namely logical discourse.  That is so apparent in discussions such as occur in this forum.  Once someone is convinced that he has the interpretation of God's word by way of enlightenment by the Holy Spirit Himself, that person is deaf to all else, even when it is obvious to all, that he is wrong.

The passages you presented (1 Cor 2 & 1 Thess 2) are not speaking of the hearer of the words but rather the speaker.  That is in both of those, Paul is attesting to his own inspiration.

Thanks for enlightening me.  Doh!
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Tantor
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2009, 09:11:11 AM »

Words exist in any language for only ONE PURPOSE.  And that is to communicate THOUGHTS.  If a word doesn’t communicate a thought, it is useless.  That’s why the words of scripture do not produce God’s thoughts to the natural man.(See 1Corinthians 2:10-14; 1Thessalonians 2:13; Matthew 13:10-16; to cite just a few.)  It is the THOUGHT the Holy Spirit produces, based on the words that are written, that produces the understanding in the believer.  Without that ENLIGHTENMENT, the Word of God makes no sense - NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE IT IS IN, or how learned or educated the reader.  That is one of the reasons there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. Too many of these folks are trying to teach the printed word without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit of God.

I believe what you are promoting there is the doctrine of illumination.  It should be obvious to all that doctrine must be false.  A big reason there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. is that people actually believe in the doctrine of illumination.  They are absolutely convinced beyond all logical argument that they have the truth by virtue of the doctine of illumination.  Yet how many times do we see just here on this forum that two people, both of whom are convinced of their own enlightenment, present conflicting arguments.

I think it is safe to say that the doctrine of illumination is the author of as much or more confusion within the body of Christ that any other single teaching.  And that quite simply because it removes fundamental requirement for effective communication, namely logical discourse.  That is so apparent in discussions such as occur in this forum.  Once someone is convinced that he has the interpretation of God's word by way of enlightenment by the Holy Spirit Himself, that person is deaf to all else, even when it is obvious to all, that he is wrong.

The passages you presented (1 Cor 2 & 1 Thess 2) are not speaking of the hearer of the words but rather the speaker.  That is in both of those, Paul is attesting to his own inspiration.

Logic is a humanistic invention.. how can one hope to bind scripture and God to that?
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2009, 09:11:11 AM »

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Jimmy
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2009, 09:26:51 AM »

Words exist in any language for only ONE PURPOSE.  And that is to communicate THOUGHTS.  If a word doesn’t communicate a thought, it is useless.  That’s why the words of scripture do not produce God’s thoughts to the natural man.(See 1Corinthians 2:10-14; 1Thessalonians 2:13; Matthew 13:10-16; to cite just a few.)  It is the THOUGHT the Holy Spirit produces, based on the words that are written, that produces the understanding in the believer.  Without that ENLIGHTENMENT, the Word of God makes no sense - NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE IT IS IN, or how learned or educated the reader.  That is one of the reasons there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. Too many of these folks are trying to teach the printed word without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit of God.

I believe what you are promoting there is the doctrine of illumination.  It should be obvious to all that doctrine must be false.  A big reason there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. is that people actually believe in the doctrine of illumination.  They are absolutely convinced beyond all logical argument that they have the truth by virtue of the doctine of illumination.  Yet how many times do we see just here on this forum that two people, both of whom are convinced of their own enlightenment, present conflicting arguments.

I think it is safe to say that the doctrine of illumination is the author of as much or more confusion within the body of Christ that any other single teaching.  And that quite simply because it removes fundamental requirement for effective communication, namely logical discourse.  That is so apparent in discussions such as occur in this forum.  Once someone is convinced that he has the interpretation of God's word by way of enlightenment by the Holy Spirit Himself, that person is deaf to all else, even when it is obvious to all, that he is wrong.

The passages you presented (1 Cor 2 & 1 Thess 2) are not speaking of the hearer of the words but rather the speaker.  That is in both of those, Paul is attesting to his own inspiration.

Logic is a humanistic invention.. how can one hope to bind scripture and God to that?


You are the perfect example of why it is absolutely necessary and just how ludicrous a presentation of God's word can be without it.  You might just as well defy gravity as defy logic.  Besides, I would argue that logic is not a human invention so much as a human discovery.  God is the author of logic.
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Tantor
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2009, 09:32:02 AM »

You are the perfect example of why it is absolutely necessary and just how ludicrous a presentation of God's word can be without it.  You might just as well defy gravity as defy logic.  Besides, I would argue that logic is not a human invention so much as a human discovery.  God is the author of logic.

Book, chapter and verse support then...

On the flip side, I would say the same thing about you... your view of scripture is pretty much an un-spiritual view of things.  You pretty much exclude anything supernatural from ever occurring and would pretty much strive to reduce all the miracles in the bible to coincidences with naturally occurring events.

You pretty much deny the involvement of the Holy Spirit in our every day lives.

Do you think the Holy Spirit actually does anything for Christians these days?

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Bonnie
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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2009, 09:38:59 AM »

Quote
You are the perfect example of why it is absolutely necessary and just how ludicrous a presentation of God's word can be without it.  You might just as well defy gravity as defy logic.  Besides, I would argue that logic is not a human invention so much as a human discovery.  God is the author of logic.


Sorry, Tantor, Jimmy is right. Your doctrine certainly makes no sense.
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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2009, 09:38:59 AM »

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Ciscokid
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2009, 09:42:15 AM »

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As we can see from scripture itself, the results of original inspiration - 2Peter 1:21 - cannot be limited to the original autographs, but must also be extended to copies of those originals.  


Does this also extend out to every Bible every compiled?  After all, a Bible is simply a translation of an earlier copy which was possibly written in another language.   What's the difference?

I mean what is the point of protecting the originals and the subsequent copies if you're not going to continue on down the line?

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Tantor
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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2009, 09:45:14 AM »

Quote
You are the perfect example of why it is absolutely necessary and just how ludicrous a presentation of God's word can be without it.  You might just as well defy gravity as defy logic.  Besides, I would argue that logic is not a human invention so much as a human discovery.  God is the author of logic.


Sorry, Tantor, Jimmy is right. Your doctrine certainly makes no sense.

BCV then...

And if the Holy Spirit is impotent in your view.. why did God send him?
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