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Author Topic: PRESERVATION OF SCRIPTURE  (Read 1440 times)
Bonnie
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2009, 09:49:44 AM »
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 09:45:14 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 09:38:59 AM
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You are the perfect example of why it is absolutely necessary and just how ludicrous a presentation of God's word can be without it.  You might just as well defy gravity as defy logic.  Besides, I would argue that logic is not a human invention so much as a human discovery.  God is the author of logic.


Sorry, Tantor, Jimmy is right. Your doctrine certainly makes no sense.

BCV then...

And if the Holy Spirit is impotent in your view.. why did God send him?


The Holy Spirit is a powerful force in our lives but that doesn't mean throw out the Bible. "Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto to God..."
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Psalms 118:24  "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
Tantor
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2009, 09:55:33 AM »
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 09:49:44 AM
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 09:45:14 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 09:38:59 AM
Quote
You are the perfect example of why it is absolutely necessary and just how ludicrous a presentation of God's word can be without it.  You might just as well defy gravity as defy logic.  Besides, I would argue that logic is not a human invention so much as a human discovery.  God is the author of logic.


Sorry, Tantor, Jimmy is right. Your doctrine certainly makes no sense.

BCV then...

And if the Holy Spirit is impotent in your view.. why did God send him?


The Holy Spirit is a powerful force in our lives but that doesn't mean throw out the Bible. "Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto to God..."

I don't disagree with that... but does the Holy Spirit have any role in your studying of the Bible?

And apparently he seems to be just a 'force' to you instead of a person...

I'm just pointing out observations in how you and most Christians seem to be very happy with putting God in a box of their own making.

I would further more state that you cannot know the truth without the Holy Spirits guidance... so to rest your faith 100% on the bible is a flawed theology.

Quote
John 16:12-15 (New International Version)

 12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2009, 09:55:33 AM »
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Bonnie
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2009, 10:00:48 AM »
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 09:49:44 AM
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 09:45:14 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 09:38:59 AM
Quote
You are the perfect example of why it is absolutely necessary and just how ludicrous a presentation of God's word can be without it.  You might just as well defy gravity as defy logic.  Besides, I would argue that logic is not a human invention so much as a human discovery.  God is the author of logic.


Sorry, Tantor, Jimmy is right. Your doctrine certainly makes no sense.

BCV then...

And if the Holy Spirit is impotent in your view.. why did God send him?


The Holy Spirit is a powerful force in our lives but that doesn't mean throw out the Bible. "Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto to God..."

I don't disagree with that... but does the Holy Spirit have any role in your studying of the Bible?

And apparently he seems to be just a 'force' to you instead of a person...

I'm just pointing out observations in how you and most Christians seem to be very happy with putting God in a box of their own making.



We were given both by the Lord. The Holy Spirit brings to your remembrance the things he has led you to study, etc.  They work together.
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Psalms 118:24  "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
Tantor
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2009, 10:10:27 AM »
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 10:00:48 AM
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 09:49:44 AM
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 09:45:14 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 09:38:59 AM
Quote
You are the perfect example of why it is absolutely necessary and just how ludicrous a presentation of God's word can be without it.  You might just as well defy gravity as defy logic.  Besides, I would argue that logic is not a human invention so much as a human discovery.  God is the author of logic.


Sorry, Tantor, Jimmy is right. Your doctrine certainly makes no sense.

BCV then...

And if the Holy Spirit is impotent in your view.. why did God send him?


The Holy Spirit is a powerful force in our lives but that doesn't mean throw out the Bible. "Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto to God..."

I don't disagree with that... but does the Holy Spirit have any role in your studying of the Bible?

And apparently he seems to be just a 'force' to you instead of a person...

I'm just pointing out observations in how you and most Christians seem to be very happy with putting God in a box of their own making.



We were given both by the Lord. The Holy Spirit brings to your remembrance the things he has led you to study, etc.  They work together.



That is not what the bible says...

The Holy Spirit is the KEY to truth.

I also do not recall anywhere where Jesus promised the Bible.. or any of his Apostles doing the same thing...

Maybe your emphasis for your beliefs are misplaced?... just like Thomas.
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Doc
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2009, 10:18:36 AM »
Quote from: Jimmy on October 30, 2009, 08:52:37 AM
Quote from: Doc on October 28, 2009, 09:23:24 AM
Words exist in any language for only ONE PURPOSE.  And that is to communicate THOUGHTS.  If a word doesn’t communicate a thought, it is useless.  That’s why the words of scripture do not produce God’s thoughts to the natural man.(See 1Corinthians 2:10-14; 1Thessalonians 2:13; Matthew 13:10-16; to cite just a few.)  It is the THOUGHT the Holy Spirit produces, based on the words that are written, that produces the understanding in the believer.  Without that ENLIGHTENMENT, the Word of God makes no sense - NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE IT IS IN, or how learned or educated the reader.  That is one of the reasons there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. Too many of these folks are trying to teach the printed word without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit of God.

I believe what you are promoting there is the doctrine of illumination.  It should be obvious to all that doctrine must be false.  A big reason there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. is that people actually believe in the doctrine of illumination.  They are absolutely convinced beyond all logical argument that they have the truth by virtue of the doctine of illumination.  Yet how many times do we see just here on this forum that two people, both of whom are convinced of their own enlightenment, present conflicting arguments.

I think it is safe to say that the doctrine of illumination is the author of as much or more confusion within the body of Christ that any other single teaching.  And that quite simply because it removes fundamental requirement for effective communication, namely logical discourse.  That is so apparent in discussions such as occur in this forum.  Once someone is convinced that he has the interpretation of God's word by way of enlightenment by the Holy Spirit Himself, that person is deaf to all else, even when it is obvious to all, that he is wrong.

The passages you presented (1 Cor 2 & 1 Thess 2) are not speaking of the hearer of the words but rather the speaker.  That is in both of those, Paul is attesting to his own inspiration.

My post has absolutely nothing to do with the so-called doctrine of illumination.  My explanation was clear regarding PRESERVATION. 

Simply, the ideas behind your disagreement are unfounded and in no way invalidates what I have written.  However, you have the privilege to believe what you like.

Doc
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Doc
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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2009, 10:21:03 AM »
Quote from: Ciscokid on October 30, 2009, 09:42:15 AM
Quote
As we can see from scripture itself, the results of original inspiration - 2Peter 1:21 - cannot be limited to the original autographs, but must also be extended to copies of those originals.  


Does this also extend out to every Bible every compiled?  After all, a Bible is simply a translation of an earlier copy which was possibly written in another language.   What's the difference?

I mean what is the point of protecting the originals and the subsequent copies if you're not going to continue on down the line?



Apparently you are unaware that NO ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS EXIT. 

Doc
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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2009, 10:21:03 AM »
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Jimmy
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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2009, 10:32:00 AM »
Quote from: Doc on October 30, 2009, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on October 30, 2009, 08:52:37 AM
Quote from: Doc on October 28, 2009, 09:23:24 AM
Words exist in any language for only ONE PURPOSE.  And that is to communicate THOUGHTS.  If a word doesn’t communicate a thought, it is useless.  That’s why the words of scripture do not produce God’s thoughts to the natural man.(See 1Corinthians 2:10-14; 1Thessalonians 2:13; Matthew 13:10-16; to cite just a few.)  It is the THOUGHT the Holy Spirit produces, based on the words that are written, that produces the understanding in the believer.  Without that ENLIGHTENMENT, the Word of God makes no sense - NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE IT IS IN, or how learned or educated the reader.  That is one of the reasons there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. Too many of these folks are trying to teach the printed word without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit of God.

I believe what you are promoting there is the doctrine of illumination.  It should be obvious to all that doctrine must be false.  A big reason there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. is that people actually believe in the doctrine of illumination.  They are absolutely convinced beyond all logical argument that they have the truth by virtue of the doctine of illumination.  Yet how many times do we see just here on this forum that two people, both of whom are convinced of their own enlightenment, present conflicting arguments.

I think it is safe to say that the doctrine of illumination is the author of as much or more confusion within the body of Christ that any other single teaching.  And that quite simply because it removes fundamental requirement for effective communication, namely logical discourse.  That is so apparent in discussions such as occur in this forum.  Once someone is convinced that he has the interpretation of God's word by way of enlightenment by the Holy Spirit Himself, that person is deaf to all else, even when it is obvious to all, that he is wrong.

The passages you presented (1 Cor 2 & 1 Thess 2) are not speaking of the hearer of the words but rather the speaker.  That is in both of those, Paul is attesting to his own inspiration.

My post has absolutely nothing to do with the so-called doctrine of illumination.  My explanation was clear regarding PRESERVATION. 

Simply, the ideas behind your disagreement are unfounded and in no way invalidates what I have written.  However, you have the privilege to believe what you like.

Doc

Do you know what the so-called doctrine of illumination is?

Your referencing of 1 Cor 2 and 1 Thess 2 in support of your arguments suggests that the ideas behind my disagree are well founded.  Those passages speak to Paul's own inspiration, not ours.

By the way, I don't disagree with the bulk of what you presented.  But the concept of illumination or enlightenment, as you referred to it,  is a red flag on your perceptions of the Holy Spirits role in all of this.
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haveahope
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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2009, 10:37:38 AM »
Kinda amazes me the lengths people will go to and the 'enlightened' stuff they will believe so they don't need to face the truths that are in the Bible.   It's called 'FAITH" people! FAITH is not only  a noun,  it's a VERB.  "For without FAITH it is impossible to please God" Heb 11:6 

Sorry for the shouting Smile but it kinda riles me when people try to make the Word of God of any less importance!

HAH
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Tantor
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2009, 10:38:58 AM »
Quote from: haveahope on October 30, 2009, 10:37:38 AM
Kinda amazes me the lengths people will go to and the 'enlightened' stuff they will believe so they don't need to face the truths that are in the Bible.   It's called 'FAITH" people! FAITH is not only  a noun,  it's a VERB.  "For without FAITH it is impossible to please God" Heb 11:6  

Sorry for the shouting Smile but it kinda riles me when people try to make the Word of God of any less importance!

HAH

But you cannot discern the truths in the bible without the guidance of the Holy Spirit... hence we have 100's of denominations all founded on humanistic interpretations of the written word.  All started due to pride and arrogance of people who would swear on their Mothers grave that they know what the scriptures mean... and they are all wrong.
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Bonnie
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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2009, 10:40:09 AM »
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 10:10:27 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 10:00:48 AM
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 09:49:44 AM
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 09:45:14 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 09:38:59 AM
Quote
You are the perfect example of why it is absolutely necessary and just how ludicrous a presentation of God's word can be without it.  You might just as well defy gravity as defy logic.  Besides, I would argue that logic is not a human invention so much as a human discovery.  God is the author of logic.


Sorry, Tantor, Jimmy is right. Your doctrine certainly makes no sense.

BCV then...

And if the Holy Spirit is impotent in your view.. why did God send him?


The Holy Spirit is a powerful force in our lives but that doesn't mean throw out the Bible. "Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto to God..."

I don't disagree with that... but does the Holy Spirit have any role in your studying of the Bible?

And apparently he seems to be just a 'force' to you instead of a person...

I'm just pointing out observations in how you and most Christians seem to be very happy with putting God in a box of their own making.



We were given both by the Lord. The Holy Spirit brings to your remembrance the things he has led you to study, etc.  They work together.



That is not what the bible says...

The Holy Spirit is the KEY to truth.

I also do not recall anywhere where Jesus promised the Bible.. or any of his Apostles doing the same thing...

Maybe your emphasis for your beliefs are misplaced?... just like Thomas.



I don't think so. As the writers wrote the letters to the churches the NT was in the making. God said the Scriptures are written by holy men as the Spirit gave them utterance.  Our examples are to be found in the Bible no matter how hard you try to do away with it.
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Psalms 118:24  "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2009, 10:40:09 AM »
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Tantor
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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2009, 10:43:40 AM »
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 10:40:09 AM
I don't think so. As the writers wrote the letters to the churches the NT was in the making. God said the Scriptures are written by holy men as the Spirit gave them utterance.  Our examples are to be found in the Bible no matter how hard you try to do away with it.

Who says I am trying to do away with the bible?... all I am trying to do is free the Bible from it's captivity to human depravity.. which is what you have done.
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haveahope
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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2009, 10:53:32 AM »
Tantor, I'm sorry I don't understand why you keep saying no one knows the truth because it's the Holy Spirit who is truth - so no one can know truth? Is that what you are saying?  Jesus said " I am the way the truth and the life, and no man can come to the father but by me"  So Jesus is the truth too.  What point could you be making other than to give one reason to doubt the words and truths of the Bible?

HAH
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Bonnie
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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2009, 10:55:55 AM »
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 10:43:40 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 10:40:09 AM
I don't think so. As the writers wrote the letters to the churches the NT was in the making. God said the Scriptures are written by holy men as the Spirit gave them utterance.  Our examples are to be found in the Bible no matter how hard you try to do away with it.

Who says I am trying to do away with the bible?... all I am trying to do is free the Bible from it's captivity to human depravity.. which is what you have done.



Now that is a good one!  Rolling on floor laughing
You drag every bible known through the mud and claim to know Greek.
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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2009, 10:55:55 AM »
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Tantor
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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2009, 10:57:04 AM »
Jesus is the truth and the Holy Spirit is the guide to the truth...

Do you see the bible mentioned anywhere in that sentence?

What I am saying, along with quite a few theologians, is that the culture and world view that Americans and the western world have been raise in and think through is very incompatible with the study of scriptures.  Which is why the western world has so many denominations.
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Tantor
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« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2009, 10:58:01 AM »
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 10:55:55 AM
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 10:43:40 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on October 30, 2009, 10:40:09 AM
I don't think so. As the writers wrote the letters to the churches the NT was in the making. God said the Scriptures are written by holy men as the Spirit gave them utterance.  Our examples are to be found in the Bible no matter how hard you try to do away with it.

Who says I am trying to do away with the bible?... all I am trying to do is free the Bible from it's captivity to human depravity.. which is what you have done.



Now that is a good one!  Rolling on floor laughing
You drag every bible known through the mud and claim to know Greek.

If you had been reading my posts you would understand that I view your comment there as totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

What translation you read from and what source documents your translation is made from make no difference.. to restate it.  The outcome is still the same... without the Holy Spirits guidance you are incapable of discerning the truths contained in the scriptures.

And I will repeat the above till it sinks in.
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