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Tantor
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« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2009, 12:49:11 PM »
Quote from: haveahope on October 30, 2009, 12:44:11 PM
So Jesus speaks only to you certain truths? From the Holy Spirit.  

Never said that.

Quote from: haveahope on October 30, 2009, 12:44:11 PM
You don't need the Bible because you have revelations from the Holy Spirit?

Never said that.

Quote from: haveahope on October 30, 2009, 12:44:11 PM
The Bible is the final authority and you are correct that there are many demoninations which may have a few differences, but if they are Bible Believing  and stand on the authority of scripture the differences will not be huge and they are not going to make a difference in Salvation through faith in the blood of Jesus substituionary death on the cross.  In other words they will agree on much more than they will disagree on.

The Holy Spirit is the final authority with the bible serving as a reference point only.  Afterall, it is the Holy Spirit who inspired the books of the bible in the first place and I refuse to believe that he is now impotent as you seem to think.

Quote from: haveahope on October 30, 2009, 12:44:11 PM
If there is not an authority of the word of God then we would have chaos.  "Every man doing that which is right in his own eyes." -  And God is not the author of confusion - He didn't leave us with insufficient information about Him.  He gave us all we need so that we might know Him.

That is a humanistic interpretation based on your human desire for safety and security.  Is your faith in God really that small and insecure?

If every bible in the world were suddenly to disappear, people would still get saved and God's ekklesia would still continue...
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Doc
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« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2009, 12:50:12 PM »
Quote from: Ciscokid on October 30, 2009, 11:19:45 AM
Quote from: Doc on October 30, 2009, 10:21:03 AM
Quote from: Ciscokid on October 30, 2009, 09:42:15 AM
Quote
As we can see from scripture itself, the results of original inspiration - 2Peter 1:21 - cannot be limited to the original autographs, but must also be extended to copies of those originals.  


Does this also extend out to every Bible every compiled?  After all, a Bible is simply a translation of an earlier copy which was possibly written in another language.   What's the difference?

I mean what is the point of protecting the originals and the subsequent copies if you're not going to continue on down the line?



Apparently you are unaware that NO ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS EXIT. 

Doc


I know they don't exist, yet you are confident that their message has been preserved.  I'm asking, does this 'protection' extend out to the Bibles we have floating around out  there too?

I made my position clear on this in my original post.  You may wish to read it again.

Doc
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« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2009, 12:50:12 PM »
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haveahope
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« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2009, 02:37:32 PM »
Tantor you did imply such things.  You also deny God's Word as the powerful words of truth that they are.  I know the Holy Spirit - He indwells me and speaks to my heart, whispers to my mind and heart, convicts me of sin, comforts me when I'm in need, and brings to my remembrance His Word that I have hidden in my heart.  He also give me power to live the life that God would have me live, to treat people as He would if He was walking in this earth today.  Do I ever fail this, for sure - we all do because we are sinners saved by grace.  I'm not what I should be but Praise the Lord, I'm not what I used to be either!  That's because I've been born again, by the Holy Spirit bringing to my mind  the damnation that I deserve and then the Grace that I didn't - how it flooded my soul with the peace that ONLY Jesus brings.

I do agree that if all Bibles in the world disappeared people could still get saved.  The reason I believe this is because  the Bible tells me "the Heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament sheweth His handiwork". 
But I believe that my God, the Creator of the universe will not let that happen.  People have tried for centuries to destroy His Word, but no one has been able to do it.  It is not like any other book - it's the Word of God.  Also, it will have been hidden in people's hearts and nothing can destroy that either.
   

HAH
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2009, 03:58:31 PM »
First, I enjoyed the OP.  I agree for the most part.  However, I also agree to a large degree with Jimmy's post:

Quote from: Jimmy on October 30, 2009, 08:52:37 AM
I believe what you are promoting there is the doctrine of illumination.  It should be obvious to all that doctrine must be false.  A big reason there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. is that people actually believe in the doctrine of illumination.  They are absolutely convinced beyond all logical argument that they have the truth by virtue of the doctine of illumination.  Yet how many times do we see just here on this forum that two people, both of whom are convinced of their own enlightenment, present conflicting arguments.

I think it is safe to say that the doctrine of illumination is the author of as much or more confusion within the body of Christ that any other single teaching.  And that quite simply because it removes fundamental requirement for effective communication, namely logical discourse.  That is so apparent in discussions such as occur in this forum.  Once someone is convinced that he has the interpretation of God's word by way of enlightenment by the Holy Spirit Himself, that person is deaf to all else, even when it is obvious to all, that he is wrong.

The passages you presented (1 Cor 2 & 1 Thess 2) are not speaking of the hearer of the words but rather the speaker.  That is in both of those, Paul is attesting to his own inspiration.

While I agree, I fail to see how exactly it deals with the OP.  What I read wasn't saying that the meaning of the Bible is mystically divined through some spiritual intervention.

It was just saying that although the copyists make errors in spelling, or grammar, or write the marginal notes and comments into the text, the meaning of the text remains the same.

That is, the preservation of the text is complete enough that the points being made in the text are undiminished, and knowable by anyone willing to read for comprehension.

Jarrod
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2009, 04:00:33 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 09:32:02 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on October 30, 2009, 09:26:51 AM
You are the perfect example of why it is absolutely necessary and just how ludicrous a presentation of God's word can be without it.  You might just as well defy gravity as defy logic.  Besides, I would argue that logic is not a human invention so much as a human discovery.  God is the author of logic.
Book, chapter and verse support then...
In the beginning was the LOGOS...and the LOGOS was God. John 1:1
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2009, 04:02:21 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 09:55:33 AM
And apparently [the Holy Spirit] seems to be just a 'force' to you instead of a person...
That would be consistent with the way the Bible speaks about It.  Referring to it in neuter gender throughout implies none-personhood, despite what your resident theologian may have told you.
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« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2009, 04:02:21 PM »
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2009, 04:04:21 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 10:38:58 AM
But you cannot discern the truths in the bible without the guidance of the Holy Spirit... hence we have 100's of denominations all founded on humanistic interpretations of the written word.  All started due to pride and arrogance of people who would swear on their Mothers grave that they know what the scriptures mean... and they are all wrong.
Yes it's possible.  Go ask an atheist what "Thou shalt not kill" means.
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Tantor
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« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2009, 04:09:34 PM »
Quote from: haveahope on October 30, 2009, 02:37:32 PM
You also deny God's Word as the powerful words of truth that they are.

I've never done such a thing.  I've just denied that humans, in their current world view and intellectual bias are capable of individually or corporately, discerning what the scriptures mean outside of an ongoing biblical community (guided by the Holy Spirit) that takes it's job of preservation of the scriptures seriously.

Neither you, nor I, nor the bible are the final authority... the Holy Spirit is.
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« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2009, 06:29:36 PM »
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on October 30, 2009, 04:02:21 PM
Quote from: Tantor on October 30, 2009, 09:55:33 AM
And apparently [the Holy Spirit] seems to be just a 'force' to you instead of a person...
That would be consistent with the way the Bible speaks about It.  Referring to it in neuter gender throughout implies none-personhood, despite what your resident theologian may have told you.

Wycliffe----

If I am understanding you correctly you are agreeing that the Holy Spirit is just a "force" and not a person?  Let me ask you, can a "force" be grieved?  Can a force be "insulted"?  Can a "force" be blasphemed?  Why does Jesus call the Holy Spirit "the comforter" and refer to Him as "HE"?  In the book of Acts is says the Holy Spirit warned them of false teachers to come.   Can a "force" warn people?

If I misunderstood you I apologize, but if you do hold to that belief you need to read all the places that clearly refer to the Holy Spirit as a "Person".
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Doc
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« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2009, 10:15:05 AM »
Quote from: Jimmy on October 30, 2009, 10:32:00 AM
Quote from: Doc on October 30, 2009, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on October 30, 2009, 08:52:37 AM
Quote from: Doc on October 28, 2009, 09:23:24 AM
Words exist in any language for only ONE PURPOSE.  And that is to communicate THOUGHTS.  If a word doesn’t communicate a thought, it is useless.  That’s why the words of scripture do not produce God’s thoughts to the natural man.(See 1Corinthians 2:10-14; 1Thessalonians 2:13; Matthew 13:10-16; to cite just a few.)  It is the THOUGHT the Holy Spirit produces, based on the words that are written, that produces the understanding in the believer.  Without that ENLIGHTENMENT, the Word of God makes no sense - NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE IT IS IN, or how learned or educated the reader.  That is one of the reasons there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. Too many of these folks are trying to teach the printed word without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit of God.

I believe what you are promoting there is the doctrine of illumination.  It should be obvious to all that doctrine must be false.  A big reason there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. is that people actually believe in the doctrine of illumination.  They are absolutely convinced beyond all logical argument that they have the truth by virtue of the doctine of illumination.  Yet how many times do we see just here on this forum that two people, both of whom are convinced of their own enlightenment, present conflicting arguments.

I think it is safe to say that the doctrine of illumination is the author of as much or more confusion within the body of Christ that any other single teaching.  And that quite simply because it removes fundamental requirement for effective communication, namely logical discourse.  That is so apparent in discussions such as occur in this forum.  Once someone is convinced that he has the interpretation of God's word by way of enlightenment by the Holy Spirit Himself, that person is deaf to all else, even when it is obvious to all, that he is wrong.

The passages you presented (1 Cor 2 & 1 Thess 2) are not speaking of the hearer of the words but rather the speaker.  That is in both of those, Paul is attesting to his own inspiration.

My post has absolutely nothing to do with the so-called doctrine of illumination.  My explanation was clear regarding PRESERVATION. 

Simply, the ideas behind your disagreement are unfounded and in no way invalidates what I have written.  However, you have the privilege to believe what you like.

Doc

Do you know what the so-called doctrine of illumination is?

Your referencing of 1 Cor 2 and 1 Thess 2 in support of your arguments suggests that the ideas behind my disagree are well founded.  Those passages speak to Paul's own inspiration, not ours.

By the way, I don't disagree with the bulk of what you presented.  But the concept of illumination or enlightenment, as you referred to it,  is a red flag on your perceptions of the Holy Spirits role in all of this.

“You do err not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.”  Matthew 22:29.  Your exegesis is completely inaccurate.  I will explain why and leave it at that.  I will not be drawn into an unproductive debate over this (2Timothy 2:14,23) - it isn’t why I came to this forum nor why I started this thread.  My purpose in this thread was clearly stated in my initial post.

To answer your question - having been a professor of Advanced Theology in a Theological Seminary a good number of years ago, I do clearly understand the Doctrine of Divine Illumination.  I understand what it is, and I understand what it isn’t.  I question that you do.

Now to the matter at hand. 

It is difficult to understand how anyone, with even a casual study of scripture, could conclude that anyone can discern the truth of scripture outside of the influence of God and His Holy Spirit.  That is quite an enigma.   

When you consider such passages as Luke 8:10, Luke 10:21-22, Matthew 13:11, Matthew 16:13-17, Matthew 11:25-27, John 8:43-47, Luke 24:13-31, 2Corinthians 3:3-6 - to just name a few - and still are able to conclude that it isn’t God who reveals DIVINE TRUTH to individuals - well, frankly I will not say on this forum what could otherwise be said about such a conclusion.

And regarding 1Corinthians 2:10-14, once again this passage is NOT confined solely to God’s revelations to the Apostle Paul.  My opinion?  No.  If you start your reading with verse one, as Paul addresses the “brethren”, you will quickly notice the number of times Paul uses the word “we” and “us” throughout the entire chapter. 

In verse 11 he then writes “even so the things of God knoweth NO MAN (emphasis mine) but the Spirit of God.”  And then, how a close reading of verse 12 and 13 would allow anyone to think Paul is confining his remarks to his own revelations of God is beyond comprehension.  BUT THEN, verse 14 - how can you miss verse 14?  Paul writes, “the natural man” - literally “unspiritual man” - receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither CAN HE (emphasis mine) know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”   And then did you see verse 16? “But WE (emphasis mine) have the mind of Christ.”  Even though much more can be said, nothing more needs to be said.  Either you get it or you don’t.  If you don’t get it by now, nothing more will help.

Now, 1Thessalonians 2:13.  Yes, Paul no doubt is addressing God’s revelations to himself.  BUT DID YOU READ THE END OF THE VERSE?  It says, “…the word of God, which effectually worketh also in YOU THAT BELIEVE” (emphasis mine).  Is Paul still just talking about himself here? 

My final comment to you is you might prayerfully consider a close meditative study of Hebrews 5:11-14.  Maybe God will show you something you need in that passage. 

I will now leave this discussion with you and leave it to the readers of this thread to prayerfully consider and discern what things are so. 

Good day,

Doc
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« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2009, 10:15:05 AM »
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haveahope
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« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2009, 10:39:25 AM »
wow, doc that was good.

this thread leaves me  Banging head against wall

Have a blessed good weekend and Lord's Day

HAH
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Doc
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« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2009, 10:44:54 AM »
Quote from: haveahope on October 31, 2009, 10:39:25 AM
wow, doc that was good.

this thread leaves me  Banging head against wall

Have a blessed good weekend and Lord's Day

HAH

Thank you HAH.  You have a very blessed weekend as well.

Doc
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« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2009, 03:35:29 PM »
Quote from: Doc on October 31, 2009, 10:15:05 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on October 30, 2009, 10:32:00 AM
Quote from: Doc on October 30, 2009, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on October 30, 2009, 08:52:37 AM
Quote from: Doc on October 28, 2009, 09:23:24 AM
Words exist in any language for only ONE PURPOSE.  And that is to communicate THOUGHTS.  If a word doesn’t communicate a thought, it is useless.  That’s why the words of scripture do not produce God’s thoughts to the natural man.(See 1Corinthians 2:10-14; 1Thessalonians 2:13; Matthew 13:10-16; to cite just a few.)  It is the THOUGHT the Holy Spirit produces, based on the words that are written, that produces the understanding in the believer.  Without that ENLIGHTENMENT, the Word of God makes no sense - NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE IT IS IN, or how learned or educated the reader.  That is one of the reasons there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. Too many of these folks are trying to teach the printed word without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit of God.

I believe what you are promoting there is the doctrine of illumination.  It should be obvious to all that doctrine must be false.  A big reason there exists so much confusion today among different denominations, factions, cults, etc. is that people actually believe in the doctrine of illumination.  They are absolutely convinced beyond all logical argument that they have the truth by virtue of the doctine of illumination.  Yet how many times do we see just here on this forum that two people, both of whom are convinced of their own enlightenment, present conflicting arguments.

I think it is safe to say that the doctrine of illumination is the author of as much or more confusion within the body of Christ that any other single teaching.  And that quite simply because it removes fundamental requirement for effective communication, namely logical discourse.  That is so apparent in discussions such as occur in this forum.  Once someone is convinced that he has the interpretation of God's word by way of enlightenment by the Holy Spirit Himself, that person is deaf to all else, even when it is obvious to all, that he is wrong.

The passages you presented (1 Cor 2 & 1 Thess 2) are not speaking of the hearer of the words but rather the speaker.  That is in both of those, Paul is attesting to his own inspiration.

My post has absolutely nothing to do with the so-called doctrine of illumination.  My explanation was clear regarding PRESERVATION. 

Simply, the ideas behind your disagreement are unfounded and in no way invalidates what I have written.  However, you have the privilege to believe what you like.

Doc

Do you know what the so-called doctrine of illumination is?

Your referencing of 1 Cor 2 and 1 Thess 2 in support of your arguments suggests that the ideas behind my disagree are well founded.  Those passages speak to Paul's own inspiration, not ours.

By the way, I don't disagree with the bulk of what you presented.  But the concept of illumination or enlightenment, as you referred to it,  is a red flag on your perceptions of the Holy Spirits role in all of this.

“You do err not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.”  Matthew 22:29.  Your exegesis is completely inaccurate.  I will explain why and leave it at that.  I will not be drawn into an unproductive debate over this (2Timothy 2:14,23) - it isn’t why I came to this forum nor why I started this thread.  My purpose in this thread was clearly stated in my initial post.

To answer your question - having been a professor of Advanced Theology in a Theological Seminary a good number of years ago, I do clearly understand the Doctrine of Divine Illumination.  I understand what it is, and I understand what it isn’t.  I question that you do.

Now to the matter at hand. 

It is difficult to understand how anyone, with even a casual study of scripture, could conclude that anyone can discern the truth of scripture outside of the influence of God and His Holy Spirit.  That is quite an enigma.   

When you consider such passages as Luke 8:10, Luke 10:21-22, Matthew 13:11, Matthew 16:13-17, Matthew 11:25-27, John 8:43-47, Luke 24:13-31, 2Corinthians 3:3-6 - to just name a few - and still are able to conclude that it isn’t God who reveals DIVINE TRUTH to individuals - well, frankly I will not say on this forum what could otherwise be said about such a conclusion.

And regarding 1Corinthians 2:10-14, once again this passage is NOT confined solely to God’s revelations to the Apostle Paul.  My opinion?  No.  If you start your reading with verse one, as Paul addresses the “brethren”, you will quickly notice the number of times Paul uses the word “we” and “us” throughout the entire chapter. 

In verse 11 he then writes “even so the things of God knoweth NO MAN (emphasis mine) but the Spirit of God.”  And then, how a close reading of verse 12 and 13 would allow anyone to think Paul is confining his remarks to his own revelations of God is beyond comprehension.  BUT THEN, verse 14 - how can you miss verse 14?  Paul writes, “the natural man” - literally “unspiritual man” - receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither CAN HE (emphasis mine) know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”   And then did you see verse 16? “But WE (emphasis mine) have the mind of Christ.”  Even though much more can be said, nothing more needs to be said.  Either you get it or you don’t.  If you don’t get it by now, nothing more will help.

Now, 1Thessalonians 2:13.  Yes, Paul no doubt is addressing God’s revelations to himself.  BUT DID YOU READ THE END OF THE VERSE?  It says, “…the word of God, which effectually worketh also in YOU THAT BELIEVE” (emphasis mine).  Is Paul still just talking about himself here? 

My final comment to you is you might prayerfully consider a close meditative study of Hebrews 5:11-14.  Maybe God will show you something you need in that passage. 

I will now leave this discussion with you and leave it to the readers of this thread to prayerfully consider and discern what things are so. 

Good day,

Doc

Not just theology, but Advanced Theology no less.  Nothing if not impressive.  And not a hint of ego in all of that.  I know, I really shouldn't lie that way Crack up
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« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2009, 03:35:29 PM »
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2009, 01:21:59 AM »
Quote from: fish153 on October 30, 2009, 06:29:36 PM
Wycliffe----

If I am understanding you correctly you are agreeing that the Holy Spirit is just a "force" and not a person?  Let me ask you, can a "force" be grieved?  Can a force be "insulted"?  Can a "force" be blasphemed?  Why does Jesus call the Holy Spirit "the comforter" and refer to Him as "HE"?  In the book of Acts is says the Holy Spirit warned them of false teachers to come.   Can a "force" warn people?

If I misunderstood you I apologize, but if you do hold to that belief you need to read all the places that clearly refer to the Holy Spirit as a "Person".
Fish ---

I have a spirit.  It is considered correct to refer to it as, well...IT.  It would not be considered incorrect to refer to my spirit as HE or HIM though, since it is sort of an extension of the cognizant parts of me anyway.

It would not, however, be correct to think of it as being a separate person from me.

All of what I have said here belongs to the realm of common sense.  Can we just apply that to God as well?
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