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Author Topic: real presence versus symbols during communion  (Read 995 times)
zoonance
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« on: September 18, 2009, 02:28:53 PM »

This has been discussed a bunch but for the life of me, I can never figure out how to do a search without getting an "error" message.   


There are deep theological debates that attempt to prove one view or another.   Like most doctrines, a PhD is not required to get the jist.   This particular doctrine is based on the literal meaning or not of "This is my body, this is my blood"  Either it really is (or "in essense" it really is) OR it is a symbol. 

I Corinthians
10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.


I think Paul gives us a clue how God uses symbols.  The rock wasn't Christ.  But the context surrounding this verse clearly gives us a picture of Christ and living water flowing from him.    Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2009, 02:52:32 PM »

Something to consider...

The New Testament speaks of the church being the body of Christ far more than it does that the bread of the Lord's Supper is the body.

If the bread is "literally" the body of Christ, then we're just as much if not moreso, as members of His body.

Anything wrong with this reasoning?

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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2009, 02:52:32 PM »

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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2009, 03:22:48 PM »

Something to consider...

The New Testament speaks of the church being the body of Christ far more than it does that the bread of the Lord's Supper is the body.

If the bread is "literally" the body of Christ, then we're just as much if not moreso, as members of His body.

Anything wrong with this reasoning?
I rather like it.  So...

Since WE are his body, wouldn't whatever-nourishes-us also be part and parcel of Christ.  I mean, isn't it all his body and blood?

Jarrod
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2009, 03:52:34 PM »

I mean, isn't it all his body and blood?


My first reaction to your statement was... that's kind of weird and I'm not too sure about that.

Then, I remembered this passage:

Colossians 1

16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
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HRoberson
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2009, 03:57:29 PM »

Being a resident mystic, I will take a middle road.

It is clear in the context of the verse, that Jesus does not mean that what He is passing around is literally (either at the moment, or soon-to-be-transubstantiated) his body and blood. He is alluding to the saving aspects His Jewish followers would recognize in the Passover meal - it is by Him they will be delivered.

However, there is a sense in that by participating in this ritual, adequately understanding its message, that we receive to ourselves some presence and grace of God. Not because we are performing the rite per se, but because we are honoring our God.
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2009, 04:05:35 PM »

That is another point... when Jesus said this is My body/My blood, it was in the present tense... at the time of which He was still physicially present with them in flesh and blood.

The bread of the Lord's Supper was just as much His body and in the same sense then as it is now.

I guess the "sense" of which is the point of discussion.
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2009, 04:05:35 PM »

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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2009, 06:29:48 PM »

He also said, "...he is Elijah...." speaking of John the B.

Or again, "....Elijah has already come...." speaking of John the B.

Really? John was literally Elijah?

I'm thinking not.
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HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
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zoonance
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2009, 07:36:09 PM »

I have thought of us as being the body of Christ too and forgot to use that.  His body sure looks like a bunch of carnal minded, can't get along with itself, poor example, etc. 
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« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2009, 03:12:01 AM »

This has been discussed a bunch but for the life of me, I can never figure out how to do a search without getting an "error" message.   


There are deep theological debates that attempt to prove one view or another.   Like most doctrines, a PhD is not required to get the jist.   This particular doctrine is based on the literal meaning or not of "This is my body, this is my blood"  Either it really is (or "in essense" it really is) OR it is a symbol. 

I Corinthians
10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.


I think Paul gives us a clue how God uses symbols.  The rock wasn't Christ.  But the context surrounding this verse clearly gives us a picture of Christ and living water flowing from him.    Thoughts?

(1Co 11:24)  And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

(1Co 11:25)  After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

The Lord's supper is a remembrance feast!

The bread reminds us that He came as God in the flesh. The wine reminds us that His blood was shed for us . Where anyone gets the idea that these elements are the actual body and blood is beyond my comprehension.


 Smile


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Mrs Mac
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2009, 03:16:28 AM »

I have thought of us as being the body of Christ too and forgot to use that.  His body sure looks like a bunch of carnal minded, can't get along with itself, poor example, etc. 

His body must be of some use, it is still holding back the full force of Satan's movements in the earth.  Preach it!
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2009, 03:16:28 AM »

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Elaine
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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2009, 07:10:56 AM »

He also said, "...he is Elijah...." speaking of John the B.
Or again, "....Elijah has already come...." speaking of John the B.

Really? John was literally Elijah?

I'm thinking not.

HR, why do you "think not"?
I think, yes, indeed John the Baptist was Elijah...
Thanks
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HRoberson
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2009, 03:36:04 PM »

He also said, "...he is Elijah...." speaking of John the B.
Or again, "....Elijah has already come...." speaking of John the B.

Really? John was literally Elijah?

I'm thinking not.

HR, why do you "think not"?
I think, yes, indeed John the Baptist was Elijah...
Thanks

Because John didn't know he was Elijah  - in fact he denied being Elijah. I'd think Elijah would have known he was Elijah.
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HRoberson, MC, MS, LMFT
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I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you.

...to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God

Sometimes you just have to let it go.

http://www.robersonblog.blogspot.com
farouk
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2009, 03:37:54 PM »

 Confused Could this be stated a little more clearly?  Confused

On second thoughts, maybe not.
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John 3.16 contains great theology, without doubt.

Read God's Word prayerfully every day; it's a joy and privilege.

If folks feel they must have TATTOOS, have you considered having faith related designs tattooed?

(And try vacationing in the South: plenty of sun, and some great churches down there!)
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2009, 03:37:54 PM »

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Mrs Mac
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2009, 03:12:14 AM »

I beg to differ!

John the Baptist was not Elijah.

"Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14"And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb. 16"And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. 17"And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord," (Luke 1:13-17).

(John 1:19-21) - "And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20And he confessed, and did not deny, and he confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he *said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

How could John be Elijah?  On what basis could he be....reincarnation?


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farouk
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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2009, 05:09:36 AM »

I don't see reincarnation in the Bible.
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John 3.16 contains great theology, without doubt.

Read God's Word prayerfully every day; it's a joy and privilege.

If folks feel they must have TATTOOS, have you considered having faith related designs tattooed?

(And try vacationing in the South: plenty of sun, and some great churches down there!)
real presence versus symbols during communion - Pages: [1] 2 3 Go Up Print 
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