Welcome, Guest. Login or register to use the forums.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 19, 2010, 12:10:24 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Bookstore | Support | Newsletter


+  Christian Forums
|-+  Christian Interests
| |-+  Apologetics Forum
| | |-+  Should you believe in the Trinity?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Should you believe in the Trinity?  (Read 4436 times)
JamesTheLeast
Member
***

Manna: 4
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 171

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2009, 12:09:39 AM »


     Since the Bible can 'set things straight; it should clearly reveal informationion about a matter as fundamental as the Trinity is claimed to be. 

From whence comes this key assumption on which the rest of your premis lies?
Logged
Bonnie
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 336
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Female
Posts: 8170


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2009, 08:18:57 AM »

It seems to me that if someone believes in God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Sprit, then they believe in the trinity even though they are hinky about ordering the t-shirt.


I think that's true and just because we can't explain it to suit everybody with our finite minds doesn't mean we're not Christian.  Just believe and have faith in God. The rest will work itself out.
Logged

Psalms 118:24  "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
Christian Forums
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2009, 08:18:57 AM »

 Logged
Bonnie
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 336
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Female
Posts: 8170


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2009, 08:23:14 AM »

This teaching assumes that everyone is under the authority of the Catholic Church, and they are not.

Exactly, Kensington. It would do well for these people to remember the added on parts of the Catholics that have no Biblical basis.
Logged

Psalms 118:24  "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
JamesTheLeast
Member
***

Manna: 4
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 171

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2009, 11:59:03 PM »

This teaching assumes that everyone is under the authority of the Catholic Church, and they are not.

I'll assume kensington that you actually didn't mean the Catholic Church, which all christians are under.  But rather the Roman Catholic Church which refers to that particularly pesky Petrine sect that refused to acknowledge Italy as a country until about 1928.  Or were you including the Pauline and Greek Orthodox as well as the See of St Mark?
Logged
ex cathedra
Senior Member
****

Manna: 36
Online Online

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 1560


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2009, 11:16:20 PM »

I don't know, what do you think?

                Most people in Christendom do.   After all, it has been the central doctrine of the Catholic Church, copied by other religions for centuries.
      In view of this, you would think that there could be no question about it?   But there is, and lately even some of its supporters have added fuel to the controvery.
      Why should a subject like this be of any more than passing enterest?  Because Jesus himself said;  "Eternal life is this;  toknow you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent".  So our entire future hinges on our knowing the true nature of God, and that means getting to the root of the Trinity controversy.  Therefore, why no examine it for ourselves?    John 17:3

     Thr Roman Catholic Church states;  "The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion.....Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed;  'the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God", and yet there are not three Gods but one God".  In this Trinity...the Perosns are co-eternal and co-equal; all alike are uncreated and omnipotent".   The Catholic Encyclopedia says.

     Since the Bible can 'set things straight; it should clearly reveal informationion about a matter as fundamental as the Trinity is claimed to be.  But do theologians and historians themselves say that it is clearly a Bible teaching?

    A Protestant publication states;  "The word Trinity is [not] found in the Bible.....It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century".  [The Illustrated Bible Dictionary]   And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity "is [not] ....directly and immediately [the] word of God".  New Catholic Encyclopedia
  the Catholic Encyclopedia also comments;  "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together.  The word "tri'as" of which the Latin "trinitas" is a translation, is first found in Theoplilus of Anticoh about 180 AD.   Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian".

   The Encyclopedia of Religion admits;  "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible [Old Testament] does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity".  And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says;  "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not [taught] in the Old Testament Scriptures.  
   Similarly, in his book "The Triune God",  Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits;  :The Old Testament....tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Trinity within the "Godhead".
    An Examination of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves will bear out these comments.  Thus, there is no clear teaching of a Trinity in the first 39 books of the Bible that make up the true canon of the inspired Hebrew Scriptures.  Thus, neither the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures nor the canon of 27 Inspired books of the Christian Greek Scriptures provide any clear teachings of the Trinity.



The doctrine of the Trinity is taught planly in scripture.

SADLY many people perfer lesser gods than them  selves . You know gods smaller than their minds
so they can fit easly into them and their fore not god at all!


but the biblical God the Triune God is bigger than the mind of men he can't fit into it . he is the true God

lets review the doctine of the Triune God  thats the true God of   scripture.
i will pre pare and gladly give  the bible passages.

Logged

Count me among the mightiest of sinner's,
for One must bear real and true sins to be saved. God does not save imaginary sinner's. So let your sins be strong but your faith in Jesus ,his blood bought forgiveness for your sin's ---be stronger still.
ex cathedra
Senior Member
****

Manna: 36
Online Online

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 1560


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2009, 12:44:40 AM »


     Since the Bible can 'set things straight; it should clearly reveal informationion about a matter as fundamental as the Trinity is claimed to be. 

From whence comes this key assumption on which the rest of your premis lies?


we can grasp what God is saying about his  Triune nature because the bible tells us about it .
 but we can not comprehend Gods Triune nature .IT SIMPLY IS MUCH GREATER THAN OUR BRAINS.



Mathew  28;19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

2nd cor 13: 14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.



the Father is God---------

see Galations 3:26

Jesus said
I am returning to my Father and your Father , to my God and your God. John 20:17

see first 1 peter 1:3




Jesus is God ---acts 20:18     John chapter  1  --------John 5:39,46
Colossians 2;9


THE HOLYSPIRT Is God------ isaiah 63:10-----Mathew12:32  Mathew 3:16 isaiah 11:2









« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 12:54:17 AM by ex cathedra » Logged

Count me among the mightiest of sinner's,
for One must bear real and true sins to be saved. God does not save imaginary sinner's. So let your sins be strong but your faith in Jesus ,his blood bought forgiveness for your sin's ---be stronger still.
Christian Forums
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2009, 12:44:40 AM »

 Logged
DPMartin
Junior Member
**

Manna: 2
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 18


Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2009, 04:14:38 PM »

I don't know, what do you think?

                Most people in Christendom do.   After all, it has been the central doctrine of the Catholic Church, copied by other religions for centuries.
      In view of this, you would think that there could be no question about it?   But there is, and lately even some of its supporters have added fuel to the controvery.
      Why should a subject like this be of any more than passing enterest?  Because Jesus himself said;  "Eternal life is this;  toknow you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent".  So our entire future hinges on our knowing the true nature of God, and that means getting to the root of the Trinity controversy.  Therefore, why no examine it for ourselves?    John 17:3

     Thr Roman Catholic Church states;  "The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion.....Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed;  'the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God", and yet there are not three Gods but one God".  In this Trinity...the Perosns are co-eternal and co-equal; all alike are uncreated and omnipotent".   The Catholic Encyclopedia says.

     Since the Bible can 'set things straight; it should clearly reveal informationion about a matter as fundamental as the Trinity is claimed to be.  But do theologians and historians themselves say that it is clearly a Bible teaching?

    A Protestant publication states;  "The word Trinity is [not] found in the Bible.....It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century".  [The Illustrated Bible Dictionary]   And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity "is [not] ....directly and immediately [the] word of God".  New Catholic Encyclopedia
  the Catholic Encyclopedia also comments;  "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together.  The word "tri'as" of which the Latin "trinitas" is a translation, is first found in Theoplilus of Anticoh about 180 AD.   Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian".

   The Encyclopedia of Religion admits;  "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible [Old Testament] does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity".  And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says;  "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not [taught] in the Old Testament Scriptures.   
   Similarly, in his book "The Triune God",  Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits;  :The Old Testament....tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Trinity within the "Godhead".
    An Examination of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves will bear out these comments.  Thus, there is no clear teaching of a Trinity in the first 39 books of the Bible that make up the true canon of the inspired Hebrew Scriptures.  Thus, neither the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures nor the canon of 27 Inspired books of the Christian Greek Scriptures provide any clear teachings of the Trinity.

Hope this helps for those who have difficulty answering the question of what is termed as “Trinity” .and it is a term, not a word found in scripture.

The Lord our God has been revealing this through out His Scriptures.

It may help to first understand that our God has no need of place in or of creation in order to be. He is whether there be anything else at all. Creation need God so creation can be.

Gen:1:2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.  And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The presence of God in His creation, is next,  revealed:

3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

The Will of God “the Highest, the Father” expressed “His Word” therefore is in His presence Spirit of God, is the Light.

Scroll forward to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (renamed Israel) also note that all the rest are called the children of Israel especially by God (“Speak unto the children of Israel” no less then 32 times),  when Moses  was with them in the wilderness. Abraham the father that sacrificed his chosen son, and Jacob renamed Israel of which the rest are children of. Are we not born of the Holy Spirit.

Then the statement “I am the Lord your God” is stated no less then 21 times in Leviticus alone and consider when God saying that He is, makes saying to the hearer that He is present with them, and in the hearing they heard the Lord the Way to Know God. And we know the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ “Word of God” of which no one can know the Father but though Jesus the Word of God the expressed Will of God in His presence. Did not Jesus say that His Word is Spirit?


It’s not rocket science; consider the man was made in God’s likeness and in God’s image. A man with a will and expresses his will and sees to execute it.

As far as any NT reference, it is the fulfillment of what has been said before, written by the hand of Moses. And if memory serves me correctly they where told to go and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.


Logged

Let there be Light
Aner
Junior Member
**

Manna: 3
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 35

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2009, 11:52:38 PM »

Ex,

Quote
The doctrine of the Trinity is taught planly in scripture.

That seems to be a bit of an overstatement.  There is no plain teaching of the Trinity in the scriptures - there are statements made that are then dedeuced to result in the concept of the Creator as a trinity (Father as God, Son as God, Holy Spirit as God but each as a separate person - seems to imply a trinity - though not without some significant problems, e.g. a singular personal pronoun being used in probably 7,000 instances of references to God in the OT and NT).  Regardless, deduction from various implications cannot be considered "plainly taught".

Moreover, when we look at the only Biblically legitimate creed - ICor8:6 -

Quote
6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him;
and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.


This is clearly NOT a trinitarian text - no trinitarian denomination would speak like this or use this language.  Yet Paul was comfortable with it.

Why?

Best,
Aner
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 01:46:06 PM by Aner » Logged
Aner
Junior Member
**

Manna: 3
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 35

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 12:39:19 AM »

Quote
And if memory serves me correctly they where told to go and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.


DP

What is most fascinating is that literally EVERY instance of a baptismal formula being formally expressed - the one in Mt 28:19 was NEVER used - but they were always baptised into the name of Jesus. 

Certainly this has led to some interesting theology itself - but I would tend to look at the textual issue - Acts being earlier than Mathew presumably.  I would look at the Johannine Comma and tend to see that being reproduced in Mt - simply earlier.  Just a guess on the textual issue - BUT not a guess on the form used for baptism.

Aner
Logged
apokalupsis
Member
***

Manna: 21
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 241


Following That Jesus Guy

Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2009, 01:47:12 PM »

Should one believe in the Trinity?
I think so because the Bible teaches it.  It helps one have a true understanding of who Christ is, what His sacrifice truly means, and the great love of what God did for His creation, etc...

Is believing in the Trinity required?
In the strict sense of the question, I doubt it.

Of course that raises the question about the Mormons doesn't it?  These days, they officially believe that Christ is the Creator of the world, and they will say He is God's Son who died for our sins, and they claim to worship Him as Lord.  Yet they still believe He is completely separate from the Father.  Does this condemn them?

Truthfully, my answer is simply "I hope not"

cuz there are a lot Mormons
Logged

Christian Forums
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2009, 01:47:12 PM »

 Logged
zoonance
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 226
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 7934


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2009, 05:14:44 PM »

In terms of being saved or not.... it would seem ... unfair somehow to be held accountable for rather cryptic insight into the facts about God.  (There are clearly stated comments on salvation and damned.)  There are scriptures that clearly separate the three and there are scriptures which speak of "one"  -   perhaps like my wife and I are one but separate!  and there is the John 1:1 that gives Jesus a high view.  Which scriptures do that for the Holy Spirit?
Logged
Aner
Junior Member
**

Manna: 3
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 35

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2009, 07:51:39 PM »

RE:  The Holy Spirit

Does any one know of any instances where the Holy Spirit is seen in heaven??

I have long been fascinated with the complete absence of the Holy Spirit in the very visual depiction of the new Heavens and New Earth - the Father is clearly there as the light - the Lamb is clearly there as the Lamp - but NO Holy Spirit.  \

And, as far as I know, there are no instances of the Holy Spirit ever in heaven.

I have heard it pointed out that there are no meaningful instances of either worship or prayer to the Holy Spirit either - I am less certain about this but it does ring a bell.

Aner
Logged
Wycliffes_Shillelagh
Designated Reality Checker
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 206
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 5634


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2009, 02:39:09 PM »

RE:  The Holy Spirit

Does any one know of any instances where the Holy Spirit is seen in heaven??

I have long been fascinated with the complete absence of the Holy Spirit in the very visual depiction of the new Heavens and New Earth - the Father is clearly there as the light - the Lamb is clearly there as the Lamp - but NO Holy Spirit.  \

And, as far as I know, there are no instances of the Holy Spirit ever in heaven.

I have heard it pointed out that there are no meaningful instances of either worship or prayer to the Holy Spirit either - I am less certain about this but it does ring a bell.

Aner
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 
Logged

Don't let worry kill you off - let the Church help!
Christian Forums
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2009, 02:39:09 PM »

 Logged
apokalupsis
Member
***

Manna: 21
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 241


Following That Jesus Guy

Blog entries (0)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2009, 05:00:11 PM »

In terms of being saved or not.... it would seem ... unfair somehow to be held accountable for rather cryptic insight into the facts about God.  (There are clearly stated comments on salvation and damned.)  There are scriptures that clearly separate the three and there are scriptures which speak of "one"  -   perhaps like my wife and I are one but separate!  and there is the John 1:1 that gives Jesus a high view.  Which scriptures do that for the Holy Spirit?

You know, I think (personally) it's exactly like the relationship with a husband and wife in that a plurality becomes one.  Only with God-Jesus-Holy Spirit, it's a perfect union.

Not like...uh... you know our marriages which go from 1 to 2 to more if the inlaws show up, etc... :-P
Logged

Aner
Junior Member
**

Manna: 3
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 35

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2009, 11:54:29 PM »

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Aner on April 25, 2009, 07:51:39 PM
RE:  The Holy Spirit

Does any one know of any instances where the Holy Spirit is seen in heaven??

I have long been fascinated with the complete absence of the Holy Spirit in the very visual depiction of the new Heavens and New Earth - the Father is clearly there as the light - the Lamb is clearly there as the Lamp - but NO Holy Spirit.  \

And, as far as I know, there are no instances of the Holy Spirit ever in heaven.

I have heard it pointed out that there are no meaningful instances of either worship or prayer to the Holy Spirit either - I am less certain about this but it does ring a bell.

Aner

Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 


Sh -

Thanks for the thought - I am aware of these texts however I would be very hard to pressed to believe these are the Holy Spirit as defined by modern day Evangelicalism (the third person of the the triune God - a separate but equal person of the same essence as the Father and the Son).  These seven Spirits - whatever they are - are NOT located in the throne but before the throne (4:5) - "in the midst" in 5:6 I think just means in the general area.  The Holy Spirit is always seen as a singular - not as 7. 

So IF this is the Holy Spirit in any way - the Holy Spirit is a way different character that any of us have ever imagined.  I don't think most commentators believe the seven spirits are the Holy Spirit - though I can easily stand corrected here.

So I am still looking for a clear cut picture of the one Holy Spirit - the third person of the trinity - separate person but equal and same substance as the Father - ruling and reigning in heaven clearly in the throne with God the Father and God the Son.  This seems necessary to support the traditional doctrine of the trinity.  I would expect not to see this picture just once but several times.

Best,
Aner
Logged
Should you believe in the Trinity? - Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Grace-Centered Christian Forums
Bible concordance | abortion ticker | is God real? | galaga | play tetris | copter game | mini golf games | arcade | donkey kong | Christian marriage help | articles | privacy
Powered by SMF | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC