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Author Topic: SUFFERING - WHY DO THE RIGHTEOUS SUFFER?  (Read 2020 times)
Doc
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« on: October 07, 2009, 10:46:04 AM »
If I may submit a thought, by asking a question: If a physician causes suffering in order to heal, is he not still considered to be a God-send?  If I go "under the knife" to remove cancer that would otherwise cause much more long term suffering and an unnecessarily pre-mature death, did not the surgeon’s knife cause pain FOR THE PURPOSE TO SAVE?  As unpleasant as those procedures may be for the moment - and oftentimes resulting in long term painful rehabilitation - are they not ultimately considered a blessing? 

What is too often overlooked is that God's purpose in suffering is REDEMPTIVE - looking to Christ's example on the cross.  It is redeeming, healing, restoring, instructive, and the BOTTOM LINE - IT ULTIMATELY BECOMES A BLESSING!  Does it feel good at the time?  No way!  But is it a blessing?  No question about it!  Romans 8:18 states, "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”  And then we can look on down to verse 28 of that same chapter which states, “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” 

Understand, it is NOT the events of our life that shape our life, but HOW WE SEE those events.

Now, a couple of additional thoughts. 

Let’s consider Job.  No doubt, Job started off well.  In the midst of unimaginable loss, he maintained his integrity and faith.  And this is many times the initial response for many of God’s people at the beginning of a major trial.  However, what works against us, is the same thing that worked against Job - time.  The longer the ordeal continued, the harder it was to understand why God was allowing this to happen.  Sound familiar?  It certainly does to me. 

We must not forget that Job 1:22 is at the beginning of an enormous string of tragic events.  As we read further on into the Book of Job, we see a definite change in attitude.  I will not quote all of the verses here, but suffice it so say God has a reason for saying what He said in Job 40:6-8.  I will quote those verses here from the King James Version:  “Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.  Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?”  (The “bold” highlighting is mine.)  As you read through the chapters of this marvelous portion of Scripture, you find Job makes some pretty harsh complaints against God.  As a result the Lord very sharply rebukes him through a number of verses that follow.

But the important conclusion is that it was the enduring of the pain and suffering - both physical and emotional - that brought Job to a different place of understanding.  Job 42:1-6 is the fruit of Job understanding God - and himself - in a very different light than he ever had before. 

As horrible as this all was for Job, it was a necessary chain of events that God used for good in Job’s life.  It is suffering that refines the faith of all God‘s people.  Faith untested - is no faith at all.  And God didn’t just help Job - He helped untold millions of others throughout history through these events in Job’s life.

Scripture is quite clear on the fact that all believers are called to suffering.  Philippians 1:29 states, “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake.”  Simply stated, the Christian faith is a call to glory through a journey of suffering.  It is God-ordained. The entire book of First Peter is dedicated to this reality, not to mention numerous other Scriptures woven throughout the Bible.  God’s plan for a believer’s life includes suffering. 

And even though we may not fully understand all of the nuances of the reasons for suffering - one thing is certain - it was all under the directive will of a Sovereign God and it is for our good.  Romans 8:28.

And then consider one final thought.  Why the Cross?  Surely the Lord could have accomplished the work of redemption in some other fashion.  But for some reason, in the mind and plan of God, He has chosen suffering as a means of redemption.  And HE set the example!  Understand it, I don’t.  But what I do understand is this -  the Lord has shrouded the Word of God in enough mystery to require that we live by faith.  Indeed, we do “see through a glass darkly.” But since “the just shall live by faith” - and since “without faith it is impossible to please Him” - suffice it to say we must simply trust His ways without many of the answers this side of Heaven.   

My dear friend - if you are a Christian - you are not being mistreated by God - you are being blessed.  And the day will come you will see that.   BLESSINGS.  Doc
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 09:38:59 AM »
"faith untested is no faith at all" is an untenable position.  that means that until faith is tested, it doesn't exist.  So if it doesn't exist, how can it be tested in order to exist?  If it doesn't exist because it isn't tested, then one has no faith until they are tested: they are damned as newborns in Christ until they have been tested, for without faith it is impossible to please God.  So how can one be born of Him in order to be tested, if the faith isn't there until they are tested?  You have an impossible logic in your statement.  If trying to get a point accross, use another statement to do so. 
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 09:38:59 AM »
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Doc
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2009, 01:46:50 PM »
Quote from: son of God on October 08, 2009, 09:38:59 AM
"faith untested is no faith at all" is an untenable position.  that means that until faith is tested, it doesn't exist.  So if it doesn't exist, how can it be tested in order to exist?  If it doesn't exist because it isn't tested, then one has no faith until they are tested: they are damned as newborns in Christ until they have been tested, for without faith it is impossible to please God.  So how can one be born of Him in order to be tested, if the faith isn't there until they are tested?  You have an impossible logic in your statement.  If trying to get a point accross, use another statement to do so. 

If you are looking for an argument you have chosen the wrong person.  You might want to meditate on 2Timothy 2:23 to understand why I won't argue with you.

If you are simply asking a sincere question, I will respond.  There is a saving faith, which is the gift of God - Ephesians 2:8 - and there is a practical faith that we all experience as we trust God day by day for His help, provision, grace, etc.  That should be clear from such passages as Hebrews Chapter 11, with special attention to verses 17, 21,36,37, and 1Peter 1:7, which says, “That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.”

I’ll let the scriptures speak for themselves.  You can believe what you like.  I will offer no further reply to you on this matter.

Doc
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2009, 03:29:56 AM »
I wasn't being argumentative, but pointing out an impossibility, which doesn't fit the Word which you quote in substatiation of it.  All the scriptures you quote are completely correct, and don't teach the extant statement.  I'm not decrying your other conclusions, friend.  Just that that one statement isn't tenable, or in the Word.  I agree, there's no point in discussing it.  I was just pointing it out as I saw it, and I'm always open to replies that I perceive to be made with honest intent.  I appreciate your posts.
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Doc
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2009, 09:43:46 AM »
Quote from: son of God on October 09, 2009, 03:29:56 AM
I wasn't being argumentative, but pointing out an impossibility, which doesn't fit the Word which you quote in substatiation of it.  All the scriptures you quote are completely correct, and don't teach the extant statement.  I'm not decrying your other conclusions, friend.  Just that that one statement isn't tenable, or in the Word.  I agree, there's no point in discussing it.  I was just pointing it out as I saw it, and I'm always open to replies that I perceive to be made with honest intent.  I appreciate your posts.

Thank you for your kind remarks.  On this matter, we will simply agree to disagree.  BLESSINGS.  Doc
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Doc
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2009, 10:00:19 AM »
Quote from: farouk on October 09, 2009, 09:49:25 AM
Philippians, which speaks of 'the fellowship of His sufferings' is also a relevant passage. Remember, the Philippian believers were to be joyful people.

Absolutely correct, my friend.   Tipping hat
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2009, 10:00:19 AM »
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2009, 10:02:15 AM »
D:

So that's why in the midst of pressure, stress, being the odd man out for conscience sake, etc., the believer can be unperturbed and joyful.

Quote from: Doc on October 09, 2009, 10:00:19 AM
Quote from: farouk on October 09, 2009, 09:49:25 AM
Philippians, which speaks of 'the fellowship of His sufferings' is also a relevant passage. Remember, the Philippian believers were to be joyful people.

Absolutely correct, my friend.   Tipping hat
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John 3.16 contains great theology, without doubt.

Read God's Word prayerfully every day; it's a joy and privilege.

If folks feel they must have TATTOOS, have you considered having faith related designs tattooed?

(And try vacationing in the South: plenty of sun, and some great churches down there!)
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2009, 10:04:22 AM »
Can we simplify and narrow it down to fewer words?

Are you saying that if you don't suffer, you don't have faith?   Scratching head....a little confused.
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Doc
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2009, 10:54:46 AM »
Quote from: farouk on October 09, 2009, 10:02:15 AM
D:

So that's why in the midst of pressure, stress, being the odd man out for conscience sake, etc., the believer can be unperturbed and joyful.

Quote from: Doc on October 09, 2009, 10:00:19 AM
Quote from: farouk on October 09, 2009, 09:49:25 AM
Philippians, which speaks of 'the fellowship of His sufferings' is also a relevant passage. Remember, the Philippian believers were to be joyful people.

Absolutely correct, my friend.   Tipping hat

No question.  When we study the life of the Apostle Paul, and his related sufferings as found in such passages as 2Corinthians 11:16-30, and yet observe how he modeled for us what our attitude should be toward suffering - Romans 8:18 and Philippians 4:4-7 - it serves as a reminder that no matter what the circumstances of our life might be - we should of all people be most joyful and thankful and glorify God on our behalf.  BLESSINGS.  Doc
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2009, 10:57:09 AM »
D:

Yes indeed.

Take care.

Quote from: Doc on October 09, 2009, 10:54:46 AM
Quote from: farouk on October 09, 2009, 10:02:15 AM
D:

So that's why in the midst of pressure, stress, being the odd man out for conscience sake, etc., the believer can be unperturbed and joyful.

Quote from: Doc on October 09, 2009, 10:00:19 AM
Quote from: farouk on October 09, 2009, 09:49:25 AM
Philippians, which speaks of 'the fellowship of His sufferings' is also a relevant passage. Remember, the Philippian believers were to be joyful people.

Absolutely correct, my friend.   Tipping hat

No question.  When we study the life of the Apostle Paul, and his related sufferings as found in such passages as 2Corinthians 11:16-30, and yet observe how he modeled for us what our attitude should be toward suffering - Romans 8:18 and Philippians 4:4-7 - it serves as a reminder that no matter what the circumstances of our life might be - we should of all people be most joyful and thankful and glorify God on our behalf.  BLESSINGS.  Doc
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John 3.16 contains great theology, without doubt.

Read God's Word prayerfully every day; it's a joy and privilege.

If folks feel they must have TATTOOS, have you considered having faith related designs tattooed?

(And try vacationing in the South: plenty of sun, and some great churches down there!)
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2009, 10:57:09 AM »
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Doc
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2009, 11:02:51 AM »
Quote from: phoebe on October 09, 2009, 10:04:22 AM
Can we simplify and narrow it down to fewer words?

Are you saying that if you don't suffer, you don't have faith?   Scratching head....a little confused.



I am merely restating what the scriptures have already clearly stated.  The life of the believer is a call to glory through a journey of suffering.  In addition to the verses already cited throughout this thread, you may also want to meditate on 1Peter 5:10-11.  BLESSINGS.  Doc
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2009, 05:25:31 PM »

God’s Way Of Making Us The Best We Can Be
Who are called to Suffer?  ALL

James 5:10. Take, my brethren, THE PROPHETS, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

Matt 17:12.  Elijah (John the Baptist) is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they desired, Likewise shall also the Son of Man suffer of them.
 
Matt 16:21.  From that time forth began Jesus to show unto his disciples how he must go into Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

1 Pet 2:21.  For even hereunto were you called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps;

Phil 1:29. For unto you is it given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him but also to suffer for his sake.

Acts 9:15. But the Lord said unto him (Ananias), go thy way; for he (The Apostle Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel;

Acts 9:16. For I will show him how great things he The Apostle Paul) must suffer for My name’s sake (Jesus’ Name).


If you're interested you can use the following links to read a pamphlet I wrote on Christian Sufferings - Part one and two. The above scriptures are taken from it.
-------------------------------------
Christian Sufferings Part One

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,32122.msg594651.html#msg594651

-------------------------------------
Christian Sufferings Part Two

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,32121.msg594650.html#msg594650

In Jesus' name.
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- IN JESUS NAME -
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2009, 08:37:51 PM »
"Who for the joy set before Him, endured the cross".  Do we have the mind of Christ?  The apostles did after Pent, for they rejoiced to think that they were considered by God to be worthy to suffer for Him.  It is our calling, for "if they do this to the Son, how much moreso to you?"  If you light so shines, you will be a stench to some, and a fragrance to others.  One way or the other, smell strong for God!  And when you do, you will suffer.  Scripture states that that is the natural course for a believer.  So if we aren't suffering, it begs the question of why not -- what's amiss?  The world isn't amiss and being righteous!  Food for thought, or craziness?
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2009, 08:37:51 PM »
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2009, 09:14:14 PM »
I have to admit...I am struggling with this thread..

In all fairness, I don't think it is quite as cut and dry as is presented here.

Yes, I know all those scriptures quite well, thank you.

But, I think we need to be very careful with this topic. Especially when we are addressing those that are currently going through suffering.  One must be extremely careful in using words such as "you should", etc....for some sufferers that can be the trigger that can send them further into their dark night of the soul from which some never recover.

When we as the question "Why do the Righteous Suffer?"...we really don't know all  the answers.  Certainly we know some.  But there is deep mystery in suffering and I don't know if we will ever know all the answers.
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2009, 10:14:46 PM »
James 1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
James 1:2  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
James 1:3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
James 1:5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
James 1:6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

James 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Job is one of the best examples of having faith in God. God allowed Satan to do the things he did to Job to prove a point that a true man of faith will not waver no matter what comes against him. I'm sure at times Job would have loved to curse God, especially when his children were killed, but Job stood fast in his belief in God and endured many horrendous things of Satan and in the end for his faithfulness God gave back to him more then what he had in the beginning.   

If it were not for the trials and tribulations we go through in life how would we ever know what true faith or another word for faith is belief in God and His promises to us. It's our sufferings that allow us to build on faith and makes us more than conquerors in a world that hates us so. We either trust God in all things or reject him in all things. There is no fence riding when it comes to our trust and faith in the Lord.



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