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Author Topic: The Shroud  (Read 1798 times)
ConqueredbyLove
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« on: November 20, 2009, 01:23:01 PM »

New information on...

Wow, even I might believe now it is the burial cloth of our Saviour...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_italy_shroud_of_turin

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Heal my heart and make it clean
Open up my eyes to the things unseen
Show me how to love like You have loved me

Break my heart for what breaks Yours
Everything I am for Your kingdom's cause
As I walk from earth into eternity

...Brooke Fraser
caldwelljr11
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 12:40:27 PM »

Keep in mind tsome of he claims against this being the Shroud of Christ:

1.  Carbon dating to 13th/14 Century (but other tests claim of biblical times)
2.  Jewish custom at time of Christ’s death was to anoint the body with a balm and wrap in strip wrappings (7-10” strips wrapped around the body)
3.  The image of the head is disproportionate to the body
4.   Face features do not appear what is considered traditionally Jewish in features

Personally, I don’t know.  I do not need relics, or confirmation from relics to support my faith.  They would just distract, and if proven genuine become an idol to some.
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 12:40:27 PM »

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antheia187
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« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2009, 01:05:38 PM »

Last Sunday as I attend a mass, our priest have discussed to us about it.

we worship Jesus not idols.

In HisLove
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ConqueredbyLove
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« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2009, 01:59:02 PM »

Last Sunday as I attend a mass, our priest have discussed to us about it.


Precious soul...

Please feel free to PM me if you need to.  There are some very cruel, judgmental, unknowing about our hearts,  remarks on here.

(((Hugs)))  Group prayer
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Heal my heart and make it clean
Open up my eyes to the things unseen
Show me how to love like You have loved me

Break my heart for what breaks Yours
Everything I am for Your kingdom's cause
As I walk from earth into eternity

...Brooke Fraser
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2009, 12:15:25 AM »

The Shroud is equal in all ways to answered prayer. I find it sad on your part that you would look at an answered prayer in such a shallow way.

But that is your choice
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Selene
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2009, 05:55:21 PM »

Aids to their faith? I think it's rather sad if you need a piece of material to strengthen your faith in Christ Jesus. I'm not sure about others.. but I also find it's a waste of time, and simply a distraction.
 

I think that God is so loving that He would even provide an image of Himself to mankind so that our faith in Him would be strengthen.  Afterall, God desires to save all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4).  Many people do not have the faith of Abraham.  If God had told you to sacrifice your child for Him, would you have done' it?  That takes great faith.   How many people have that kind of faith? Today, if one heard a voice from Heaven telling him to kill his child, he would atumoatically assume it was the voice of Satan.  But Abraham knew that this voice came from God.  And Abraham knew that even if he killed his son, God would provide and give his son life.  That was Abraham's faith.  And God did allow the child to live.

God knows that man's faith is very very weak just like the Israelites faith in Him was weak.  That was why God told Moses to build a bronze serpent (Numbers 21:6-9).  The bronze serpent was an icon pointing toward God and leading them toward God, and it was God Himself who healed them.  It was only when the Israelites started to worship the bronze serpent that God had it destroyed (2 Kings 18:4).   An icon or an image can strengthen a person's faith by leading them toward God, but an icon should  NEVER be worshiped as God.  That was the lesson the Israelites learned regardng the bronze serpent. 

In the New Testament, Jesus said "The Son of Man must be lifted up as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him." (John 3:13-14).  In here, the serpent that Jesus was referring to was the bronze serpent that God told Moses to build.  If the image on the Shroud of Turin is indeed the image of Jesus Christ, then Christ has left behind His image to strengthen our faith even more so that we may believe in God.  Afterall, which one of us has the kind of faith that Abraham has?
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2009, 05:55:21 PM »

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caldwelljr11
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2009, 03:44:32 PM »

I understand why the shroud would “strengthen” the faith of some, but I worry about the implications of relying on such a relic.  It seems to me that it would be impossible to prove the image on the shroud to be that of Christ, but at some point it could be disproven. 


How would one’s faith be influenced if the shroud is proven false?  Would that person stumble in their faith, or choose to accept as valid what is false?
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ConqueredbyLove
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2009, 08:33:40 PM »


For the record...

I started this thread as a result of a Yahoo news article.  Before that news article I thought that the Shroud probably was not the burial cloth of Jesus.  But the new information on it caught my attention.

I have rarely thought of the Shroud.  After I saw the article, I wanted to share it so I started this thread.  If I could have forseen some of the  comments, as a result of this topic, I would never have started it.

For on this thread there have been many hateful posts.  We have been accused of being idoloters and of running all over the world looking for relics.  We have been accused of not sitting at the feet of Jesus for 5 minutes.  One person was accused  that "Your agenda in coming to this board is to DESTROY the Christian's TOTAL reliance upon the Word of God for his salvation, life, and daily walk in Christ Jesus to the glory of God the Father."

This is hateful, ugly stuff and I feel horrible that it happened.  For you that have endured such ugliness, I am so sorry and sad for you.  For you that have read this, hoping to find some love in Christianity, I am deeply sorry.  Please know that God is not like some of the posts that you read here.  He really is not...
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Heal my heart and make it clean
Open up my eyes to the things unseen
Show me how to love like You have loved me

Break my heart for what breaks Yours
Everything I am for Your kingdom's cause
As I walk from earth into eternity

...Brooke Fraser
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 09:14:27 PM »



BOTTOM LINE: He does not have to worry about what I say for I am just a man...his problem will be what he will have to account for when he comes face-to-face with the Lord Jesus Christ--->the REAL judge.

I believe you are also Catholic. Am I correct on this?

Marcello


Yes, Christ is the REAL judge.  So, what makes you think that YOU can judge?  Yes, God will judge Winsome for his actions, but He will also judge you for your own actions as well.  Did you not read in the Bible that Jesus said to love your neighbor and not to judge? 

And yes, I am Catholic, and Jesus taught me that all men (regardless of what color, race, or beliefs) were created in God's image.   As St. Paul said to the pagans in Athens:

Acts 17:26-28  From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.  God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.  'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' 

Surely, you did not think that Jesus died only for you?  Did you not know that He died for all sinners including those whom you hate.
   
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 09:16:08 PM »

Keep the topic to the Shroud of Turin, or your posts will be deleted.
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"Are you one of those Christians that you don't land in any church because none of them is right for you, none of them is biblical, none of them is good enough?  If you've been to 27 churches, and not one of them is right, just remember this you're the only constant variable.  It's probably you." - Mark Driscoll, from message "God Sends."
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 09:16:08 PM »

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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2009, 09:40:04 PM »

All discussion about whether or not icons or relics are idols or tools has been moved to the discussion topic "Are icons tools or idols" and moved to the Catholic Forum.
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"Are you one of those Christians that you don't land in any church because none of them is right for you, none of them is biblical, none of them is good enough?  If you've been to 27 churches, and not one of them is right, just remember this you're the only constant variable.  It's probably you." - Mark Driscoll, from message "God Sends."
Charles Sloan
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2009, 09:57:24 PM »

Aids to their faith? I think it's rather sad if you need a piece of material to strengthen your faith in Christ Jesus. I'm not sure about others.. but I also find it's a waste of time, and simply a distraction.
 

I think that God is so loving that He would even provide an image of Himself to mankind so that our faith in Him would be strengthen.  Afterall, God desires to save all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4).  Many people do not have the faith of Abraham.  If God had told you to sacrifice your child for Him, would you have done' it?  That takes great faith.   How many people have that kind of faith? Today, if one heard a voice from Heaven telling him to kill his child, he would atumoatically assume it was the voice of Satan.  But Abraham knew that this voice came from God.  And Abraham knew that even if he killed his son, God would provide and give his son life.  That was Abraham's faith.  And God did allow the child to live.

God knows that man's faith is very very weak just like the Israelites faith in Him was weak.  That was why God told Moses to build a bronze serpent (Numbers 21:6-9).  The bronze serpent was an icon pointing toward God and leading them toward God, and it was God Himself who healed them.  It was only when the Israelites started to worship the bronze serpent that God had it destroyed (2 Kings 18:4).   An icon or an image can strengthen a person's faith by leading them toward God, but an icon should  NEVER be worshiped as God.  That was the lesson the Israelites learned regardng the bronze serpent.  

In the New Testament, Jesus said "The Son of Man must be lifted up as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him." (John 3:13-14).  In here, the serpent that Jesus was referring to was the bronze serpent that God told Moses to build.  If the image on the Shroud of Turin is indeed the image of Jesus Christ, then Christ has left behind His image to strengthen our faith even more so that we may believe in God.  Afterall, which one of us has the kind of faith that Abraham has?

This is a very compelling argument for relics, although I personally don't believe in they contain any supernatural power. I do believe the shroud is authentic, but I think it is merely a wonderful piece of archeology to evidence Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection due to the testing that revealed the image was imprinted by high levels of radiation.

I have been one of the more vigorous opponents of catholicism in the past, but I have mellowed. I do think catholics tread a fine and dangerous line between veneration and idolatry, and I have heard all the justifications imaginable. My only concern for the slippery slope that Israel found themselves in worshiping all sorts of things because of their nature, their sinful nature which is no different than ours. Mixing images and religion is a very dangerous practice, ask Aaron.

But the op gives interesting new development to the shroud mystery. I believe my fellow shroudies will all agree.
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Selene
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2009, 10:32:53 PM »

This is a very compelling argument for relics, although I personally don't believe in they contain any supernatural power. I do believe the shroud is authentic, but I think it is merely a wonderful piece of archeology to evidence Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection due to the testing that revealed the image was imprinted by high levels of radiation.

I have been one of the more vigorous opponents of catholicism in the past, but I have mellowed. I do think catholics tread a fine and dangerous line between veneration and idolatry, and I have heard all the justifications imaginable. My only concern for the slippery slope that Israel found themselves in worshiping all sorts of things because of their nature, their sinful nature which is no different than ours. Mixing images and religion is a very dangerous practice, ask Aaron.

But the op gives interesting new development to the shroud mystery. I believe my fellow shroudies will all agree.
 


There are no supernatural powers in icons.  All power came from God.  Even the bronze serpent spoken about in the Book of Numbers didn't have any power.  It was only an icon that God instructed Moses to build.  It was an icon that pointed only to God, but it was God who healed the Israelites, not the bronze serpent.  When the Israelites started to worship the bronze serpent, God destroyed it.  The bronze serpent was never meant to be worshiped.  In the same way, the Shroud is not meant to be worshiped.

God knows the hearts of every person.  He can determine whether he/she is worshipping the shroud or not.  Idoltry is not found in statues or shrouds. It is found only in the hearts of human beings.  So, if a person puts his trust more in money that in God, then that person is already guilty of idoltry.  If a person loves his child more than God, then he/she is also guilty of idoltry.  First and foremost, we are to love God with all our mind, soul, and heart.  That is Abraham's faith, and this is the kind of faith that we are called to have.  Jesus said that those who put wife, mother, father, son, and daughter before Him is not worthy to be with Him.
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2009, 10:32:53 PM »

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Marcello9
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2009, 08:20:00 AM »

*["...For on this thread there have been many hateful posts...One person was accused  that 'Your agenda in coming to this board is to DESTROY the Christian's TOTAL reliance upon the Word of God for his salvation, life, and daily walk in Christ Jesus to the glory of God the Father.'"]

***A post is "hateful" if its content is FALSE and presented to cause hurt to another party. If the content of a post is TRUE and not intended to hurt a party but to instruct---then it is not HATEFUL.

I am the person who posted the comment that you referred to above...and I do NOT apologize for making it. The person to whom I made the statement was a ardent opponent of "Sola Scriptura" and belonged to the Roman Catholic faith (who instigated the anti-Sola Scriptura movement in response to Martin Luther's pro-Sola Scriptura position).

The Roman Church promulgated the anti-Sola Scriptura movement because they could NOT support their anti-biblical doctrines by the Scriptures...and set out destroy the credibility of the Scriptures and, in turn, the Christian's TOTAL reliance on the Word of God for his salvation! You and others on this thread have alleged that what I posted was hateful even though I told the truth. Now isn't that special? I submit that we are  living in a day when "political correctness" is considered the "norm"...and people do not want or can bear to hear the truth from "bigots" like me...but would rather hear something that would make themselves feel good and bolster their self-esteem.

BOTTOM LINE: I told the truth...and you (and others of your persuasion) don't like to hear the truth because some say it causes "disharmony"..."divisions" within the "body of Christ." The truth is...all on this thread are not of the "body of Christ."   

Marcello


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Charles Sloan
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2009, 08:30:04 AM »

Marcello,

If anyone understands the heat on the front of the debate against roman doctrine its me, but there are rules on this message board that protect anyone who confesses faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior. If you choose to disagree with their doctrine you are free to discuss it, but calling people names will only get you banned. So keep the comments that insult people to yourself, since they are not helping your cause even if they were allowed. Just stick to doctrine and speak the truth in love, not in anger or disgust.

Merry Christmas Marcello and God bless.
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