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Offline Kindle

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2011, 10:14:08 PM »

And we've been closely observing animal behavior for how long?
One monkey species will wet/chew on leaves and then use them to clean a wound   Another has an itch, so it chews on a stick and then scratches it's back.  Rudimentary is rudimentary.
What-ever cave men were, as presented by science, they are gone now.  There are some things we will never know. As far as the birds and their shinies  I don't know what is going on in their little heads. But they do. The birds began to drop nuts.. a new behavior in these birds that had inhabited that city for years and years.  Something clicked? Was it an "aha" moment?  
Ah, gospel...
I am curious about God's creation. I don't mind the thought that the animals around me might be more than machines running on some slightly variable program.  Are we ourselves perhaps limited in the extent of our Free Will.  How do we even know.  If I could, i would think happy thoughts and fly. It doesn't work. But I fly in my dreams at night.  We are the expert tool makers. But can we understand the language of the animals around us if we don't watch and listen?  
If there is no kinship, then why my dog here make me laugh when she acts in a way that is particularily Duditz? Was it only human will and instinct which formed that bond?
Herding dog breeds are naturally herders, even if there are no herds around. There is an adaption of instinct that goes beyond the physical, and has occured after a few thousand years of selective breeding.  There is a connection I share with my dogs which stems from something wolf, and something man. If we can pull off this trick of adapting a species to fit our purpose, which we can love and be loved by in turn.. how much more can our Creator do?
My dog dreams too.

All i know is if macro evolution were true...someone would have to explain how man is the only creature that evolved in consciousness while ALL OTHER evolution pertains to physical evolution

There is not one reasonable explanation for the dawning of human consciousness
not one!

In the context of the Bible there is no need to explain it

But as far as the TOE

You have to explain why one creature evolved consciously while all others only evolved in terms of physical attributes

gospel, you seem to misunderstand my beliefs.

Luke 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God

I have stated that "cave men" are not of the Adamic line.  I have stated that the reason scientists have not found a missing link is because their isn't one.  I have nothing to defend here that I can see.  
Are animals aware?   There are several "complex animal" species which mourn the loss of their loved ones. Is this consciousness?  Was this always so? Any scale or timetable as to what our Creator has in mind for His purpose regarding His "lesser" creatures is completely His own. It is far beyond our reach to comprehend. We bear witness only to what we see around us.  ME is measured across geographic eras, not by lifetimes.
Consider the lion and the lamb.  Is it literal or figurative. If it is literal, then the "beasts" themselves are a part of the BIG PICTURE. Even they are to know peace.  ME is of little concern to me, other that it makes me ponder God's own majesty.

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2011, 10:14:08 PM »

Offline gospel

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2011, 10:07:01 AM »

And we've been closely observing animal behavior for how long?
One monkey species will wet/chew on leaves and then use them to clean a wound   Another has an itch, so it chews on a stick and then scratches it's back.  Rudimentary is rudimentary.
What-ever cave men were, as presented by science, they are gone now.  There are some things we will never know. As far as the birds and their shinies  I don't know what is going on in their little heads. But they do. The birds began to drop nuts.. a new behavior in these birds that had inhabited that city for years and years.  Something clicked? Was it an "aha" moment?  
Ah, gospel...
I am curious about God's creation. I don't mind the thought that the animals around me might be more than machines running on some slightly variable program.  Are we ourselves perhaps limited in the extent of our Free Will.  How do we even know.  If I could, i would think happy thoughts and fly. It doesn't work. But I fly in my dreams at night.  We are the expert tool makers. But can we understand the language of the animals around us if we don't watch and listen?  
If there is no kinship, then why my dog here make me laugh when she acts in a way that is particularily Duditz? Was it only human will and instinct which formed that bond?
Herding dog breeds are naturally herders, even if there are no herds around. There is an adaption of instinct that goes beyond the physical, and has occured after a few thousand years of selective breeding.  There is a connection I share with my dogs which stems from something wolf, and something man. If we can pull off this trick of adapting a species to fit our purpose, which we can love and be loved by in turn.. how much more can our Creator do?
My dog dreams too.

All i know is if macro evolution were true...someone would have to explain how man is the only creature that evolved in consciousness while ALL OTHER evolution pertains to physical evolution

There is not one reasonable explanation for the dawning of human consciousness
not one!

In the context of the Bible there is no need to explain it

But as far as the TOE

You have to explain why one creature evolved consciously while all others only evolved in terms of physical attributes

gospel, you seem to misunderstand my beliefs.

Luke 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God

I have stated that "cave men" are not of the Adamic line.  I have stated that the reason scientists have not found a missing link is because their isn't one.  I have nothing to defend here that I can see.  
Are animals aware?   There are several "complex animal" species which mourn the loss of their loved ones. Is this consciousness?  Was this always so? Any scale or timetable as to what our Creator has in mind for His purpose regarding His "lesser" creatures is completely His own. It is far beyond our reach to comprehend. We bear witness only to what we see around us.  ME is measured across geographic eras, not by lifetimes.
Consider the lion and the lamb.  Is it literal or figurative. If it is literal, then the "beasts" themselves are a part of the BIG PICTURE. Even they are to know peace.  ME is of little concern to me, other that it makes me ponder God's own majesty.


Ok  ::shrug::

I understand the clarity of what you believe but then your ensuing statements get a little blurry and begin to sound like you're straddling between two camps....

I don't know if you are or not, but some of your statements are a little fuzzy to me so it just seems like it

Bottom line

All I'm saying is macro evolution is a lie...that's all


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Re: Cave men
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2011, 10:07:01 AM »

Offline Kindle

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2011, 08:12:08 PM »
I do personally believe that many animals have some level of consciousness, awareness as higher forms of the living things of creation. (Created, not formed) This is the blur you are seeing.  Perhaps the neanderthal possessed such which allowed them a certain level of creativity.  Science says so, for the time being.  But science cannot/will not prove  we descended from them. Do animals evolve any further consciousness over great spans of time?  I don't know.  I do, however,  consider that God is the author of the definition of "kind."  
But my faith leaves no doubt in my mind that Adam was a separate and formed creation. Macro evolution, as a scientific pursuit to explain humanity through evolution will either hit a brick wall or show our Bible to be Truth. I don't worry myself over the issue.
When I watch programs on the subject, I always look forward to the point where the obvious missing link comes into play. I find it uplifting!  

Am I straddling between the two camps?  That depends. Which camps are we speaking of?

Offline Thorwald

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2011, 10:53:40 PM »
Who said that Neanderthals were created 'in the image of God'? We see beavers building dams and houses (I don't think that they would make a good painter, however). It appears to me, that every single member of the animal kingdom, was given different 'gifts' for survival. Neanderthals are no different. They are simply the highest order of the animal kingdom. Then you have muskrats, who are 'freeloaders' (something like our North American Indians), that move into a beaver's house, 'after' the beaver did all of the work (similar to our North American Indians).  ::smile::
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 11:34:19 PM by Thorwald »

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2011, 10:53:40 PM »

Offline gospel

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2011, 11:26:42 PM »
I do personally believe that many animals have some level of consciousness, awareness as higher forms of the living things of creation. (Created, not formed) This is the blur you are seeing.  Perhaps the neanderthal possessed such which allowed them a certain level of creativity.  Science says so, for the time being.  But science cannot/will not prove  we descended from them. Do animals evolve any further consciousness over great spans of time?  I don't know.  I do, however,  consider that God is the author of the definition of "kind."  
But my faith leaves no doubt in my mind that Adam was a separate and formed creation. Macro evolution, as a scientific pursuit to explain humanity through evolution will either hit a brick wall or show our Bible to be Truth. I don't worry myself over the issue.
When I watch programs on the subject, I always look forward to the point where the obvious missing link comes into play. I find it uplifting!  

Am I straddling between the two camps?  That depends. Which camps are we speaking of?

We seem to be in agreement on what matter most...however the dawning of human consciousness is merely a phrase I came up with to stump hard core evolutionists.

Its fun watching them squirm trying to explain how humans, the least prowess, the slowest, the least fiercest, the most physically inept of all creatures was able to survive without the advantage of human consciousness, the creative age, the abiity to make weapons, tools, agriculture and the mastery of fire.

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2011, 11:26:42 PM »



Offline gospel

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2011, 11:32:42 PM »
Who said that Neanderthals were created 'in the image of God'? We see beavers building dams and houses (I don't think that they would make a good painter, however). It appears to me, that every single member of the animakl kingdom, was given different 'gifts' for survival. Neanderthals are no different. They are simply the highest order of the animal kingdom. Then you have muskrats, who are 'freeloaders' (something like our North American Indians), that move into a beaver's house, 'after' the beaver did all of the work (similar to our North American indians).  ::smile::


What would be newsworthy is finding a beaver that decided it DID NOT WANT TO BUILD a damn  or a breed of fish that finally understood the concept of bait or salmon that decide to pass on the trip upstream realizing a lot of them will never make it.


Point is...the things animals are hardwired to do is more the work of a miraculous God than it is proof of evolution or proof that the the Planet of the Apes is a plausible reality

Sorry

Also evolution is racist theory at its core, it proposes that some people i.e the earliest races are more animal like than the the latter races

The theory of evolution is nothing but pure fodder for Nazi like genocide mentality and people like Margareth Sanger who believe in using eugneics, for the insidious purpose of purifying of the human gene pool


Christians please Don't fall for it!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 11:36:14 AM by gospel »

Offline Thorwald

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2011, 11:48:25 PM »
Who said that Neanderthals were created 'in the image of God'? We see beavers building dams and houses (I don't think that they would make a good painter, however). It appears to me, that every single member of the animakl kingdom, was given different 'gifts' for survival. Neanderthals are no different. They are simply the highest order of the animal kingdom. Then you have muskrats, who are 'freeloaders' (something like our North American Indians), that move into a beaver's house, 'after' the beaver did all of the work (similar to our North American indians).  ::smile::


What would be newsworthy is finding a beaver that decided it DID NOT WANT TO BUILD a damn  or a breed of fish that finally understood the concept of bait or salmon that decide to pass on the trip upstream realizing a lot of them will never make it.


Point is...the things animals are hardwired to do is more the work of a miraculous God than it is proof of evolution or proof that the the Planet of the Apes is a plausible reality

Sorry

Also evolution is racist theory at its core, it proposes that some people i.e the earliest races are more animal like than the the latter races

The theory of evolution is nothing but pure fodder for Nazi like genocise mentality and people like Margareth Sanger who believe in eugneics, the purifying of the human gene pool

Christians

Don't fall for it!

I am sure, that if a person is a Christian, they will not fall for the theory of evolution. I believe that God protects them after becoming a Christian. The book of Job, and Romans chpt 1, makes us stop an think. We are told, that we simply have to look around us. Nature continues, without our help. Who, but God, is controlling the lives of the plants and animals? If this was not so, life probably would have disappeared a long time ago.

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2011, 07:37:23 AM »

Gospel, yes. I think we are both holding to what is important here.  And, you and Throwald have made very good points. I see the love of discovery in these scientists and experts on television, and then wonder what they would really discover if they would only turn some of that love toward God.   

Thor... err...well..  That neanderthal in "God's image" pondering was mine.  I was pondering a possibility. But then beyond that point I am left pondering what "in God's image"  would even mean. And then right there was my own brick wall. 
 ::smile::
Briefly off-topic if I may..
Are you from Canada, perchance?  We caught a North Park episode last night.  I managed to sit through the whole thing.  Anyway, I gathered that Canadians and the Eskimos seemed to have some sort of ..ummm.. mutual lack of appreciation?  ::lookaround::
I think U.S. Native American's here would probably say the same thing about us... yeppers.  Though many here do frequent their casinos...
 


Offline gospel

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2011, 11:40:14 AM »
Who said that Neanderthals were created 'in the image of God'? We see beavers building dams and houses (I don't think that they would make a good painter, however). It appears to me, that every single member of the animakl kingdom, was given different 'gifts' for survival. Neanderthals are no different. They are simply the highest order of the animal kingdom. Then you have muskrats, who are 'freeloaders' (something like our North American Indians), that move into a beaver's house, 'after' the beaver did all of the work (similar to our North American indians).  ::smile::


What would be newsworthy is finding a beaver that decided it DID NOT WANT TO BUILD a damn  or a breed of fish that finally understood the concept of bait or salmon that decide to pass on the trip upstream realizing a lot of them will never make it.


Point is...the things animals are hardwired to do is more the work of a miraculous God than it is proof of evolution or proof that the the Planet of the Apes is a plausible reality

Sorry

Also evolution is racist theory at its core, it proposes that some people i.e the earliest races are more animal like than the the latter races

The theory of evolution is nothing but pure fodder for Nazi like genocide mentality and people like Margareth Sanger who believe in using eugneics, for the insidious purpose of purifying of the human gene pool


Christians please Don't fall for it!

Offline gospel

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2011, 11:50:47 AM »

Gospel, yes. I think we are both holding to what is important here.  And, you and Throwald have made very good points. I see the love of discovery in these scientists and experts on television, and then wonder what they would really discover if they would only turn some of that love toward God.   

Thor... err...well..  That neanderthal in "God's image" pondering was mine.  I was pondering a possibility. But then beyond that point I am left pondering what "in God's image"  would even mean. And then right there was my own brick wall. 
 ::smile::
Briefly off-topic if I may..
Are you from Canada, perchance?  We caught a North Park episode last night.  I managed to sit through the whole thing.  Anyway, I gathered that Canadians and the Eskimos seemed to have some sort of ..ummm.. mutual lack of appreciation?  ::lookaround::
I think U.S. Native American's here would probably say the same thing about us... yeppers.  Though many here do frequent their casinos...
 




Jesus said God is Spirit,
Therefore man being made in God's image means man is also first and foremost a spirit, difference being man is a spirit who lives in a body

In this way Jesus the man was the vessel and body for The Christ, The Anointed One

Likeness refers to attributes, so man is a spirit who has the attributes of his Creator

Not just intelligence, for all creatures have a degree of intelligence but Intelligence merged with Self Awareness,Purpose Driven Creativity, Imagination and Being-ness that askes the question why am I here and what am I supposed to do.

Those combined with the Ability to speak a thing into to existence make man like God

Animals will never have those attributes because they unlike human beings are not made in the image or likeness of God

Offline Thorwald

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2011, 11:52:29 AM »

Gospel, yes. I think we are both holding to what is important here.  And, you and Throwald have made very good points. I see the love of discovery in these scientists and experts on television, and then wonder what they would really discover if they would only turn some of that love toward God.   

Thor... err...well..  That neanderthal in "God's image" pondering was mine.  I was pondering a possibility. But then beyond that point I am left pondering what "in God's image"  would even mean. And then right there was my own brick wall. 
 ::smile::
Briefly off-topic if I may..
Are you from Canada, perchance?  We caught a North Park episode last night.  I managed to sit through the whole thing.  Anyway, I gathered that Canadians and the Eskimos seemed to have some sort of ..ummm.. mutual lack of appreciation?  ::lookaround::
I think U.S. Native American's here would probably say the same thing about us... yeppers.  Though many here do frequent their casinos...
 



I reside in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada. The only way that the natives can survive, is through special non-tax advantages, and the rest of Canada 'paying through the nose', to keep them on their reserves, or providing them with the money to set up their offices/homes, etc., off of the reserves. The natives 'cry wolf', and the Federal Gov't writes another cheque. Their non-tax status retail operations that they carry out on their reserves, is in direct competition to legitimate businesses established by non-natives, off of the reserve. Many businesses have been forced into bankruptcy, because they cannot compete.

Offline Kindle

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2011, 05:02:06 PM »
Throwald, ah.. Okay. I understand now. Thank you.  I took a look at population numbers, and can see what you mean.  

Gospel, it seems we draw a different line as far as animal awareness.  But until we find out more proveable data on the issue, it all rests upon individual perception.  Current thinking is that a human child becomes self aware at about 18 months.  Whatever the higher animals do possess in common with us, in whatever quantity or lack thereof, it must stop short of human developement at this age.  But even here it's hard to determine wheter it's an issue of awareness, or intelligence.  It's hard to say!  There are so many questions.  Why will dogs risk their lives to save their humans? Why will humans risk their lives to save their dogs?  ::smile::
I like the word Thor used; "gifts."  I do think animals have a language; vocalization and body language. How complex it is we haven't yet determined.  Speak a thing into existence.. ?  Yes, we bring our ideas into being.  I think that goes along with true self awareness.  Animals have gifts...small ones in that area.. but I would agree that this is the dividing line.
I think we do share the thoughts what evolution scientists are trying to prove here; their end goal.  It's a wasted effort.
I'll respect your wish and reasoning not to share your own thoughts about "the people" outside the garden.  You have made me curious, however.  Still, it may be one of those things we simply are not to know for now.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 05:08:28 PM by Kindle »

Offline gospel

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2011, 05:34:44 PM »
Throwald, ah.. Okay. I understand now. Thank you.  I took a look at population numbers, and can see what you mean.  

Gospel, it seems we draw a different line as far as animal awareness.  But until we find out more proveable data on the issue, it all rests upon individual perception.  Current thinking is that a human child becomes self aware at about 18 months.  Whatever the higher animals do possess in common with us, in whatever quantity or lack thereof, it must stop short of human developement at this age.  But even here it's hard to determine wheter it's an issue of awareness, or intelligence.  It's hard to say!  There are so many questions.  Why will dogs risk their lives to save their humans? Why will humans risk their lives to save their dogs?  ::smile::
I like the word Thor used; "gifts."  I do think animals have a language; vocalization and body language. How complex it is we haven't yet determined.  Speak a thing into existence.. ?  Yes, we bring our ideas into being.  I think that goes along with true self awareness.  Animals have gifts...small ones in that area.. but I would agree that this is the dividing line.
I think we do share the thoughts what evolution scientists are trying to prove here; their end goal.  It's a wasted effort.
I'll respect your wish and reasoning not to share your own thoughts about "the people" outside the garden.  You have made me curious, however.  Still, it may be one of those things we simply are not to know for now.

 ::amen!::

Good thoughts


And manna to you

Offline Kindle

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Re: Cave men
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2011, 09:19:40 PM »
Ty, gospel. ::smile::