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Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Apologetics Forum => Topic started by: tidbit on Sat Feb 26, 2005 - 00:02:49

Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: tidbit on Sat Feb 26, 2005 - 00:02:49
Genesis 3:22-24:

Quote
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

So my question is, does the Garden of Eden still exist?  If so, where is it?  If not, what became of it?

Hint:  Before you say that it does not exist, you might want to consider Revelation 2:7, and 22:1-5, 14
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Mere Nick on Sat Feb 26, 2005 - 01:00:44
My brother works at the Miller brewery in Eden NC and my youngest daughter is named Eden.

It has been my understanding that the original Garden of Eden was in Iraq.  However, based upon pictures and videos from that country, the garden ain't in too good a shape if it's still around.  Besides, it gets hotter than all get out in the summertime.
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: marc on Sat Feb 26, 2005 - 07:58:24
I would say that the spiritual Eden referred to in Revelation still exists, giving hope to all Christians, letting us know that we can eat of the tree of life.

But I would also say that this is no more the literal, grown-from-dirt-branches-and-leaves tree of life than the armies of locusts with scorpion tails, lion's teeth, women's hair and mens faces are literal scary creatures.   :D

(http://www.faithissues.ca/1_images/endtimes/Locust.jpg)
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: DCR on Sat Feb 26, 2005 - 09:24:08
My thoughts on Eden and the early chapters of Genesis... those events are not eye-witness accounts (unless Adam could read and write).  Of course, no man was around to witness the six days of creation except God Himself.  So, the telling of this could only be revealed by God to someone (probably Moses).  In that light, it is prophecy, isn't it?

Usually, we think about prophecy as being about events in the future.  But, in the Bible, it has a broader meaning than that.  Could we not say that early Genesis is prophecy... about the past?

With that in mind... given that prophecy of future events often has figurative language... could it be possible that some of what we read in early Genesis could be figurative?

It's interesting that we have references to the serpent, the garden, and the tree of life again in the book of Revelation.
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: rick6886 on Sat Feb 26, 2005 - 11:11:58
Gen 2:9 NIV

And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were "THE TREE OF LIFE" and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (quotes and bold are mine)

Rev 22:19 NIV

And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in "THE TREE OF LIFE" and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

I specifically chose the NIV, since the KJV renders Rev 22:19 inaccuarately with "the book of life", instead of "the tree of life".

God specifically identified 2 trees in the garden of Eden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. The tree of life is also acknowledged at the end of the age. So I would answer yes that some form of Eden still exists because I believe the tree in Gen 2 and the tree in Rev 22 are the same thing.

I think Rev 22:14 also implies that the place the tree is still in its original spot, guarded by the gates.

my humble 2 cents

Rick
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: marc on Sat Feb 26, 2005 - 11:38:47
If this were a literal tree on earth, wouldn't it have been destoyed by the flood?
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: mike on Sat Feb 26, 2005 - 14:28:42
Of course not, marc!

It is the tree of LIFE ---- It could therefore keep itself alive.  :p

Mike
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: James Rondon on Sat Feb 26, 2005 - 15:19:37
Quote
I specifically chose the NIV, since the KJV renders Rev 22:19 inaccuarately with "the book of life", instead of "the tree of life".
Interesting, Rick. The Textus Receptus has the word "biblos" in this passage, which would be translated as "book", instead of the word "xulon", which would be translated as "tree". I wonder if the other manuscripts actually have the word "xulon", instead of "biblos", or if this is just how the NIV translates the passage?



[!--EDIT|James Rondon|1109452860--]
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: mike on Sat Feb 26, 2005 - 16:47:56
James, I can read a little Greek, but certainly don't pretend to be a Greek scholar. So, I am just reporting here, not interpreting.

My copy of the eclectic Greek text that the NIV was based on has this phrase: xulou tes zoes (my transliteration) for tree of life.

Mike
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: James Rondon on Sat Feb 26, 2005 - 17:12:34
Thanks, Mike... Then it appears to be a manuscript issue, instead of just a translation issue.
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: rick6886 on Sun Feb 27, 2005 - 18:59:34
Quote
Thanks, Mike... Then it appears to be a manuscript issue, instead of just a translation issue.
I guess the question really becomes then, is there such thing as a book of life?
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: lch on Sun Feb 27, 2005 - 19:25:17
I found this:

Genesis 13:10 --  And Lot lifted his eyes and saw all the plain of Jordan, that it was well-watered everywhere (before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah) like the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt as you go toward Zoar.

Does this refer to the garden of Eden?  It might!  I would think the Lord's glory was removed from the garden and everything went the way of all living things on the earth.  This time period here is, what, perhaps 2000 years after the expulsion from the garden.
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: marc on Sun Feb 27, 2005 - 19:33:25
The Garden of Eden is actually located in an unlikely place, in Arizona's Superstition Mountains.  

You see, the "Tigris" and "Euphrates" that we now know aren't the same ones that existed back before the flood.  Noah and his kids gave these rivers near where the ark landed their names, because they reminded them of the rivers they had back home (think Manchester, NH, New York, Paris, Tennessee, Bill France, etc.).

But the Garden of Eden still exists, in a hidden valley in the Supertition Mountains. You drop down over a craggy, dry, mountain, and there it is:  a green, sub-tropical paradise, filled with greenery, exotic birds and crystal streams.

 Unfortunately, it is near where Jacob Walz, aka "The Lost Dutchman" struck gold.  You've probably heard the stories of how so many people who have went looking for the Lost Dutchman's gold have mysteriously vanished or have turned up dead.  Many people blame this on a curse placed on the mine.  In reality, it is the work of the Cherubim and flaming sword that God placed at the gates of the Garden to protect the tree of life.

Only one person has stumbled across this valley and survived.  Yours truly.  The date of birth I listed in my profile is wrong; I was actually born in 1812.  I am the Lost Dutchman himself.

Every word of this is true, except those containing vowells, of course.  :p
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: s1n4m1n on Sun Feb 27, 2005 - 20:06:57
Some have postulated that the Garden of Eden was/is located in Israel. When Joshua and the Hebrews got to the Jordan River after the wanderings in the desert they met an Angel of the Lord. This is taken as the self same angel with the flaming sword.

Ken
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: marc on Sun Feb 27, 2005 - 20:09:59
Is a Cherubim actually a type of angel, or is it something different?  I've always assumed it was, but have been challenged on this recently.

(btw, I think that equating Israel--"The Promised Land" with the Garden of Eden has something going for it.)
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: rick6886 on Mon Feb 28, 2005 - 21:04:04
Quote
Is a Cherubim actually a type of angel, or is it something different?  I've always assumed it was, but have been challenged on this recently.
Ezekiel 10 (NIV)

 1 I looked, and I saw the likeness of a throne of sapphire above the expanse that was over the heads of the cherubim. 2 The LORD said to the man clothed in linen, "Go in among the wheels beneath the cherubim. Fill your hands with burning coals from among the cherubim and scatter them over the city." And as I watched, he went in.
    3 Now the cherubim were standing on the south side of the temple when the man went in, and a cloud filled the inner court. 4 Then the glory of the LORD rose from above the cherubim and moved to the threshold of the temple. The cloud filled the temple, and the court was full of the radiance of the glory of the LORD . 5 The sound of the wings of the cherubim could be heard as far away as the outer court, like the voice of God Almighty when he speaks.

    6 When the LORD commanded the man in linen, "Take fire from among the wheels, from among the cherubim," the man went in and stood beside a wheel. 7 Then one of the cherubim reached out his hand to the fire that was among them. He took up some of it and put it into the hands of the man in linen, who took it and went out. 8 (Under the wings of the cherubim could be seen what looked like the hands of a man.)

    9 I looked, and I saw beside the cherubim four wheels, one beside each of the cherubim; the wheels sparkled like chrysolite. 10 As for their appearance, the four of them looked alike; each was like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 11 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the cherubim faced; the wheels did not turn about as the cherubim went. The cherubim went in whatever direction the head faced, without turning as they went. 12 Their entire bodies, including their backs, their hands and their wings, were completely full of eyes, as were their four wheels. 13 I heard the wheels being called "the whirling wheels." 14 Each of the cherubim had four faces: One face was that of a cherub, the second the face of a man, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

    15 Then the cherubim rose upward. These were the living creatures I had seen by the Kebar River. 16 When the cherubim moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the cherubim spread their wings to rise from the ground, the wheels did not leave their side. 17 When the cherubim stood still, they also stood still; and when the cherubim rose, they rose with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in them.

    18 Then the glory of the LORD departed from over the threshold of the temple and stopped above the cherubim. 19 While I watched, the cherubim spread their wings and rose from the ground, and as they went, the wheels went with them. They stopped at the entrance to the east gate of the LORD 's house, and the glory of the God of Israel was above them.

    20 These were the living creatures I had seen beneath the God of Israel by the Kebar River, and I realized that they were cherubim. 21 Each had four faces and four wings, and under their wings was what looked like the hands of a man. 22 Their faces had the same appearance as those I had seen by the Kebar River. Each one went straight ahead.

This passage in Ezekiel is probably the most descriptive of Cherubim. But when it comes to Ezekiel nothing is "normal".

There are also numerous verses in Exodus and the Kings about engraved Cherubim to be placed on the Ark of the Covenant and in the inner most Holy of Holies.

In my very humble opinion I believe they are an angel, in Psalms 99:5 the Lord sits between them on his throne: "The LORD reigns, let the nations tremble; he sits enthroned between the cherubim, let the earth shake."

There is only one NT reference to Cherubim, Heb 9:5...

hope this helps

my humble 2 cents

Rick
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: zoonance on Mon Mar 14, 2005 - 12:38:16
Is there such a thing as the 'book of life"?  Good question.  Yes.  Is it a book or a "computer program" and does God need to write this stuff down anyway?  The point is obvious.  I want my name "written" whether it is ink, bytes, God's memory.... wherever!
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: zoonance on Tue Mar 15, 2005 - 07:57:44
I began to think about why a "book of life"  would be necessary.  For us.  To see our name written must be a rush!  Another question: It is one thing to have our NAME wriiten down, and quite another our LIFE STORY (decisions, sins, etc.) Is our story erased by the blood or will the accuser still be able to bring all my junk up?  It will take an eternity to read just my own list.  Mike
Title: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: rick6886 on Tue Mar 15, 2005 - 21:59:39
Quote
I began to think about why a "book of life"  would be necessary.  For us.  To see our name written must be a rush!  Another question: It is one thing to have our NAME wriiten down, and quite another our LIFE STORY (decisions, sins, etc.) Is our story erased by the blood or will the accuser still be able to bring all my junk up?  It will take an eternity to read just my own list.  Mike
excellent point...

my humble 2 cents

Rick
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: zoonance on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 12:51:55
Quote
I began to think about why a "book of life"  would be necessary.  For us.  To see our name written must be a rush!  Another question: It is one thing to have our NAME wriiten down, and quite another our LIFE STORY (decisions, sins, etc.) Is our story erased by the blood or will the accuser still be able to bring all my junk up?  It will take an eternity to read just my own list.  Mike
excellent point...

my humble 2 cents

Rick




wow.   I made an excellent point once!      That doesn't happen very often!
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Bonnie on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 16:21:17
The Garden of Eden is actually located in an unlikely place, in Arizona's Superstition Mountains.  

You see, the "Tigris" and "Euphrates" that we now know aren't the same ones that existed back before the flood.  Noah and his kids gave these rivers near where the ark landed their names, because they reminded them of the rivers they had back home (think Manchester, NH, New York, Paris, Tennessee, Bill France, etc.).

But the Garden of Eden still exists, in a hidden valley in the Supertition Mountains. You drop down over a craggy, dry, mountain, and there it is:  a green, sub-tropical paradise, filled with greenery, exotic birds and crystal streams.

 Unfortunately, it is near where Jacob Walz, aka "The Lost Dutchman" struck gold.  You've probably heard the stories of how so many people who have went looking for the Lost Dutchman's gold have mysteriously vanished or have turned up dead.  Many people blame this on a curse placed on the mine.  In reality, it is the work of the Cherubim and flaming sword that God placed at the gates of the Garden to protect the tree of life.

Only one person has stumbled across this valley and survived.  Yours truly.  The date of birth I listed in my profile is wrong; I was actually born in 1812.  I am the Lost Dutchman himself.

Every word of this is true, except those containing vowells, of course.  :p


It can't be true... impossible.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 18:06:56
Is a Cherubim actually a type of angel, or is it something different?  I've always assumed it was, but have been challenged on this recently.

(btw, I think that equating Israel--"The Promised Land" with the Garden of Eden has something going for it.)
The Hebrew word can mean "one who contends" if you make the vowel points different.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: k-pappy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 18:45:35
This is a great topic...I have always wondered if the garden still exists in one form or fashion.  Given that even today there are parts of this planet still unexplored, it is a definite possibility.

We will all know someday, eh?  ::cool::

In Christ,
KP
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: marc on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 18:50:55
According to posters on another board, it still exists in the South Pacific.  There was a plane crash there, with improbable survivors (six of whom are destined to be "rescued").  There have been scientific experiments involving polar bears and other animals done there by a group called the Dharma Initiative, a group that was eliminated by a small band of "natives".

However, I do not believe this theory.   ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Bonnie on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 19:08:43
This is a great topic...I have always wondered if the garden still exists in one form or fashion.  Given that even today there are parts of this planet still unexplored, it is a definite possibility.

We will all know someday, eh?  ::cool::

In Christ,
KP


I think it exists and someday every believer will see it and walk through it. Oh, what our Master has prepared for us... has not entered into our hearts.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 19:48:28
According the books of Enoch, it still exists, but it in the 3rd heaven.   ::whistle::
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: marc on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 19:55:12
Maybe Joni was right and we've got to get ourselves back to the ga-a-a-arden.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Bonnie on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 19:55:18
I haven't read those books but you may have a good point there.

Bless you,
Bonnie
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 20:16:05
Perhaps we can tell something from this passage in Ezekiel:

Eze 28:11   Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12   Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13   Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14   Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15   Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Everybody remember how to speak King-James-ese??
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Bonnie on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 20:18:32
Perhaps we can tell something from this passage in Ezekiel:

Eze 28:11   Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12   Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13   Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14   Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15   Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Everybody remember how to speak King-James-ese??

This is wonderful.  Great job!
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Bonnie on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 20:22:38
Perhaps we can tell something from this passage in Ezekiel:

Eze 28:11   Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12   Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13   Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14   Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15   Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Everybody remember how to speak King-James-ese??


Lucifer was there before Adam and Eve.?

Bonnie
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 20:50:50
Perhaps we can tell something from this passage in Ezekiel:

Eze 28:11   Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12   Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13   Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14   Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15   Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Everybody remember how to speak King-James-ese??


Lucifer was there before Adam and Eve.?

Bonnie
No.  In Genesis, the "covering" (guardian) cherub was set at the entrance of the garden after their explusion.

Also, are you sure it's talking about Lucifer?  Some would say yes, but then what do we do with the chapter before this one.  You know, the one that's all about the imminent demise of the city of Tyre.  Was Lucifer also the king of Tyre?
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Bonnie on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 21:03:24
Perhaps we can tell something from this passage in Ezekiel:

Eze 28:11   Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12   Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13   Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14   Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15   Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Everybody remember how to speak King-James-ese??


Lucifer was there before Adam and Eve.?

Bonnie
No.  In Genesis, the "covering" (guardian) cherub was set at the entrance of the garden after their explusion.

Also, are you sure it's talking about Lucifer?  Some would say yes, but then what do we do with the chapter before this one.  You know, the one that's all about the imminent demise of the city of Tyre.  Was Lucifer also the king of Tyre?



Must look deeper for an answer.
The descriptures fit those of Lucifer.  I'm confused.

His wings covered the throne of God before he was kicked out of heaven.   ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 21:06:48
The Garden of Eden is actually located in an unlikely place, in Arizona's Superstition Mountains. 

You see, the "Tigris" and "Euphrates" that we now know aren't the same ones that existed back before the flood.  Noah and his kids gave these rivers near where the ark landed their names, because they reminded them of the rivers they had back home (think Manchester, NH, New York, Paris, Tennessee, Bill France, etc.).

But the Garden of Eden still exists, in a hidden valley in the Supertition Mountains. You drop down over a craggy, dry, mountain, and there it is:  a green, sub-tropical paradise, filled with greenery, exotic birds and crystal streams.

 Unfortunately, it is near where Jacob Walz, aka "The Lost Dutchman" struck gold.  You've probably heard the stories of how so many people who have went looking for the Lost Dutchman's gold have mysteriously vanished or have turned up dead.  Many people blame this on a curse placed on the mine.  In reality, it is the work of the Cherubim and flaming sword that God placed at the gates of the Garden to protect the tree of life.

Only one person has stumbled across this valley and survived.  Yours truly.  The date of birth I listed in my profile is wrong; I was actually born in 1812.  I am the Lost Dutchman himself.

Every word of this is true, except those containing vowells, of course.  :p
rofl  rofl  rofl

(1)  I live in Arizona within sight of the Superstitions.
(2)  When you drop down over the crag, you're looking at Apache Junction, a mobile-home park that somehow managed to incorporate itself as a city.  Most Arizonans think that A.J. makes the abyss look like a nice vacation spot.

My apologies (and condolences) to anyone out there who lives in or is from Apache Junction, AZ.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 21:40:37
Perhaps we can tell something from this passage in Ezekiel:

Eze 28:11   Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12   Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13   Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14   Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15   Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Everybody remember how to speak King-James-ese??


Lucifer was there before Adam and Eve.?

Bonnie
No.  In Genesis, the "covering" (guardian) cherub was set at the entrance of the garden after their explusion.

Also, are you sure it's talking about Lucifer?  Some would say yes, but then what do we do with the chapter before this one.  You know, the one that's all about the imminent demise of the city of Tyre.  Was Lucifer also the king of Tyre?



Must look deeper for an answer.
The descriptures fit those of Lucifer.  I'm confused.

His wings covered the throne of God before he was kicked out of heaven.   ??? ??? ???
I'm not sitting here holding the answer.  I'm just throwing stuff out there like everyone else.  So....
Since when is Lucifer the guardian of Eden?  The Bible says "a cherub with a flaming sword..."  Maybe?

After a few minutes, I came up with a few ways to look at this:

(1)  Lucifer really was the king of Tyre. 
Doesn't seem likely to me....the rest of the prophecy is about his imminent death.  Also, the prophecy about the destruction of Tyre and its king came to pass well before Jesus walked the earth, which is really when Lucifer's demise takes place, don't you agree?

(2)  The passage is about the king of Tyre, who was not Lucifer.  The garden of Eden still existed at the time this was written, and was within the domain of the actual king of Tyre.  The monarchy at Tyre really was charged by God to be the guardians of the sacred spot.  The text has nothing to do with Lucifer.
Tyre was a major city in what we would call Lebanon, and there are a few ancient myths that could support the location of Eden being within Lebanon.  However, we have some anachronistic issues...how could the monarchs of Tyre be charged with the defense of Eden if Adam/Eve were the only people on earth?

(3)  The passage is about the king of Tyre, who was not Lucifer.  The text is using an extended metaphor comparing the glories of Tyre to the glories of Eden.  The text has nothing to do with Lucifer.
This isn't a very satisfying answer...I don't learn anything about Eden, or about Lucifer.  However, it's very easy to see how the original audience could have read it this way.  I'm leaning towards this one.

(4)  The passage is about the king of Tyre, who is not Lucifer.  However, Eden is a type of Tyre, and Lucifer is a type of the king of Tyre. 
I like this answer, but I have a hard time believing it.  Satan is really not a big figure in the Hebrew literature prior to the exile.  I just don't think the original audience would have read it this way.

(5)  The passage is about Lucifer, and has nothing to do with the King of Tyre.
I find this option hard to believe in light of the text that comes right before it about the city of Tyre.  And the text after it about the land and king of Egypt.

Maybe this verse doesn't tell me that Eden was in modern-day Lebanon after all....
Oh well, back to the drawing board.  We still have a pretty big list of names to eliminate:

Dilmun
Iraq/Shinar
Armenia
Antarctica
Tibet
The 3rd Heaven

I like the first and last options the best.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 22:12:23
His wings covered the throne of God before he was kicked out of heaven.   ??? ??? ???
The throne of God mentioned here could be the Ark of the Covenant.  It had two Cherubim on the cover, and it's place in the HoH was flanked by two statues of Cherubim as well.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Bonnie on Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 06:58:20
His wings covered the throne of God before he was kicked out of heaven.   ??? ??? ???
The throne of God mentioned here could be the Ark of the Covenant.  It had two Cherubim on the cover, and it's place in the HoH was flanked by two statues of Cherubim as well.


I am mostly likely the one off base.  Probably the scripture is about the king of Tyre. I was being caught up in the imagery of the beautiful surroundings.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Bonnie on Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 07:02:12
I meant to add that we know Lucifer wasn't the king of anything rather the angel who tried to usurp God. Once was he the most beautiful angel whose wings covered the very throne of God but with his rebellion he was kicked from heaven and is the same that tempted Eve in the Garden.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: John 1:1 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 07:27:05
Eden still exists according to the word, it's baracaked with a Cherub that holds the entrance at guard with a swinging sword, this means to me, we simply cannot see it, as of yet at least, it's real, it has not stopped being, it continues. Man did not destroy it, just himself in the process of figuring out good and evil on that fateful day.  Wouldn't it be nice to take a peek of it some time???  Hmmm... God must be keeping it in tact for a reason. 

This is only speculation on my end here guys, he may have picked it up, packed it's bags and decided it's not worth his time to keep that garden, it's his choice, but from what I'm getting, there is no indication that he did so,... well, unless you consider it a casualty in the flood...
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Bonnie on Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 07:53:09
Eden still exists according to the word, it's baracaked with a Cherub that holds the entrance at guard with a swinging sword, this means to me, we simply cannot see it, as of yet at least, it's real, it has not stopped being, it continues. Man did not destroy it, just himself in the process of figuring out good and evil on that fateful day.  Wouldn't it be nice to take a peek of it some time???  Hmmm... God must be keeping it in tact for a reason. 

This is only speculation on my end here guys, he may have picked it up, packed it's bags and decided it's not worth his time to keep that garden, it's his choice, but from what I'm getting, there is no indication that he did so,... well, unless you consider it a casualty in the flood...

Yes, it exists... somewhere that God has chosen to put it until later.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: spurly on Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 08:14:45
Eden still exists according to the word, it's baracaked with a Cherub that holds the entrance at guard with a swinging sword, this means to me, we simply cannot see it, as of yet at least, it's real, it has not stopped being, it continues. Man did not destroy it, just himself in the process of figuring out good and evil on that fateful day.  Wouldn't it be nice to take a peek of it some time???  Hmmm... God must be keeping it in tact for a reason. 

This is only speculation on my end here guys, he may have picked it up, packed it's bags and decided it's not worth his time to keep that garden, it's his choice, but from what I'm getting, there is no indication that he did so,... well, unless you consider it a casualty in the flood...

Yes, it exists... somewhere that God has chosen to put it until later.

Yep.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: marc on Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 12:45:12
The Garden of Eden is actually located in an unlikely place, in Arizona's Superstition Mountains. 

You see, the "Tigris" and "Euphrates" that we now know aren't the same ones that existed back before the flood.  Noah and his kids gave these rivers near where the ark landed their names, because they reminded them of the rivers they had back home (think Manchester, NH, New York, Paris, Tennessee, Bill France, etc.).

But the Garden of Eden still exists, in a hidden valley in the Supertition Mountains. You drop down over a craggy, dry, mountain, and there it is:  a green, sub-tropical paradise, filled with greenery, exotic birds and crystal streams.

 Unfortunately, it is near where Jacob Walz, aka "The Lost Dutchman" struck gold.  You've probably heard the stories of how so many people who have went looking for the Lost Dutchman's gold have mysteriously vanished or have turned up dead.  Many people blame this on a curse placed on the mine.  In reality, it is the work of the Cherubim and flaming sword that God placed at the gates of the Garden to protect the tree of life.

Only one person has stumbled across this valley and survived.  Yours truly.  The date of birth I listed in my profile is wrong; I was actually born in 1812.  I am the Lost Dutchman himself.

Every word of this is true, except those containing vowells, of course.  :p
rofl  rofl  rofl

(1)  I live in Arizona within sight of the Superstitions.
(2)  When you drop down over the crag, you're looking at Apache Junction, a mobile-home park that somehow managed to incorporate itself as a city.  Most Arizonans think that A.J. makes the abyss look like a nice vacation spot.

My apologies (and condolences) to anyone out there who lives in or is from Apache Junction, AZ.

My first response was, "Have I been posting in my sleep?"  I didn't remember writing this, but it sure sounded like something I'd write!

Then I checked the date.  That's why; I don't remember anything before I started graduate school (August 2006).
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 14:28:00
Okay, how about another crack at this:

In Revelation 2:7:
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

"The paradise of God" seems to be an apropos description of Eden.  Where else does the New Testament talk about paradise?

Luke 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Looks like Eden is someplace one goes after death.  But did that change after Jesus resurrection?  Maybe, but at any rate, 2Corinthians 12:4 indicates that it still exists:

2Co 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Also, I'm noticing "caught up into paradise."  The view that Eden/paradise is now in heaven is looking better and better to me.

Check out the book of Enoch:

41:1  After this I beheld the secrets of the heavens and of paradise, according to its divisions; and of human action, as they weight it there in balances. I saw the habitations of the elect, and the habitations of the holy. And there my eyes beheld all the sinners, who denied the Lord of glory, and whom they were expelling from there, and dragging away, as they stood there...
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Nyoka on Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 14:42:38
There is one possibility I haven't heard mentioned.  Don't all things have a pattern in heaven? If this is so could there have been a pattern for Eden there too and could this be where Eden is now?  ???  I am no bible scholar so hopefully someone with more understanding can throw some light on this.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: marc on Mon Mar 03, 2008 - 20:34:04
...and we're all living between the trees.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Mauviene on Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 00:39:50
The most plausible answer would be that the Garden of Eden was in existence when the earth was one Continent, which was named Pangaea. Then at the birth of sin, or possibly after, our creator separated man and thus created the world as we know it; flawed and malignant, yet astounding and serene. Do these two qualities of our earth not represent good and evil, the forbidden knowledge that Adam and Eve indulged in?
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: GloryB on Fri Mar 21, 2008 - 11:45:25
Eden still exists according to the word, it's baracaked with a Cherub that holds the entrance at guard with a swinging sword, this means to me, we simply cannot see it, as of yet at least, it's real, it has not stopped being, it continues. Man did not destroy it, just himself in the process of figuring out good and evil on that fateful day.  Wouldn't it be nice to take a peek of it some time???  Hmmm... God must be keeping it in tact for a reason. 


I agree that it is here...yet hidden.   The understanding that God is not confined to our 3D universe helps.  I think physics have the dimensions up to eight and counting.  It's really interesting stuff....and has helped me to understand exactly why God's ways are higher than our ways.
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Bonnie on Sat Mar 22, 2008 - 04:59:54
The most plausible answer would be that the Garden of Eden was in existence when the earth was one Continent, which was named Pangaea. Then at the birth of sin, or possibly after, our creator separated man and thus created the world as we know it; flawed and malignant, yet astounding and serene. Do these two qualities of our earth not represent good and evil, the forbidden knowledge that Adam and Eve indulged in?

Excellent point!
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Bonnie on Sat Mar 22, 2008 - 05:09:27
Eden still exists according to the word, it's baracaked with a Cherub that holds the entrance at guard with a swinging sword, this means to me, we simply cannot see it, as of yet at least, it's real, it has not stopped being, it continues. Man did not destroy it, just himself in the process of figuring out good and evil on that fateful day.  Wouldn't it be nice to take a peek of it some time???  Hmmm... God must be keeping it in tact for a reason. 


I agree that it is here...yet hidden.   The understanding that God is not confined to our 3D universe helps.  I think physics have the dimensions up to eight and counting.  It's really interesting stuff....and has helped me to understand exactly why God's ways are higher than our ways.

Oh, I agree with that.  I believe God has preserved it.  Imagine for a moment if we can all the beauty and glory of it! 
The streets of gold or even the mansions never really appealed to me. (probably symbolic anyway).  In my heart of hearts I yearn for the love and peace of this perfect place.  Some say it is Paradise, I don't know but I do believe there is a future purpose for it.

God Bless
Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: GloryB on Sat Mar 22, 2008 - 10:38:27

Oh, I agree with that.  I believe God has preserved it.  Imagine for a moment if we can all the beauty and glory of it! 
The streets of gold or even the mansions never really appealed to me. (probably symbolic anyway).  In my heart of hearts I yearn for the love and peace of this perfect place.  Some say it is Paradise, I don't know but I do believe there is a future purpose for it.

God Bless

I don't like to complicate things....but in understanding dimensions beyond our 3d perceptrion...it is much like the life we are now living is only an inside movie set. We THINK it is the whole world because it is all we are able to perceive of it.  This was part of the curse that covered the whole world that came about due to the original sin. 

Now, due to Jesus, we are free from the curse, but our spirit is still stuck in this earthly body.  At some point, it won't be.  This is when the doors of the inside movie set will open up and we will clearly see the entire spiritual realm...all dimensions of it...with a new perception.  It is only THEN that we will fully understand.

I hope I explained it without going off on some physics tangent. 

Title: Re: Does Eden still exist?
Post by: Bonnie on Sat Mar 22, 2008 - 16:19:43

Oh, I agree with that.  I believe God has preserved it.  Imagine for a moment if we can all the beauty and glory of it! 
The streets of gold or even the mansions never really appealed to me. (probably symbolic anyway).  In my heart of hearts I yearn for the love and peace of this perfect place.  Some say it is Paradise, I don't know but I do believe there is a future purpose for it.

God Bless

I don't like to complicate things....but in understanding dimensions beyond our 3d perceptrion...it is much like the life we are now living is only an inside movie set. We THINK it is the whole world because it is all we are able to perceive of it.  This was part of the curse that covered the whole world that came about due to the original sin. 

Now, due to Jesus, we are free from the curse, but our spirit is still stuck in this earthly body.  At some point, it won't be.  This is when the doors of the inside movie set will open up and we will clearly see the entire spiritual realm...all dimensions of it...with a new perception.  It is only THEN that we will fully understand.

I hope I explained it without going off on some physics tangent. 




I understand what you're saying.  When all the barriers are removed then we'll have the entire picture.