Great Watch-Maker Video

[Ciscokid]

There is the argument that complexity means there is a designer.  This is usually used by the creationist camp to promote their views.  I think it is a faulty way of thinking, and the question about who designed the designer is a valid response to this.

A more rational approach to the subject is that the universe has a beginning, and therefore something must have caused it.  It may be a multiverse or the flying spagetti monster or the judeo Christian god, but there must be a starting point which wasn't caused.  If everything has a cause, then we end up with an infinite regress.  If we have an infinite past, then we could never get to where we are, because it would take forever to get here.

I agree.   Unfortunately the creationist camp is headed by people like Kirk Cameron who are targeting the masses not philosophers or professors.

[Jaime]

If there is a God, and I believe there is, then he is the designer. If he's not, then He ain't God.

[0man]

A designer sounds pretty complex...who designed the designer?

Strange that you ask who designed the designer but you don't ask who designed the cosmos or who created life, and indeed the majority of people including scientists tell us life just "happened."

I believe God is life eternal and as scientists tell us life just happened there is your answer from science itself regarding God, He has always been, He has always existed and He did not need to be created, moreover the complexity of creation points to the need for a living creator who was there from the beginning of time and is from everlasting to everlasting as evidenced by the life around us.

[h2r77]

Great video on the watch maker principle.

http://www.kids4truth.com/watchmaker/watch.html

Clicked on the above link and got the following message ........

We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found.

[Ciscokid]

Strange that you ask who designed the designer but you don't ask who designed the cosmos or who created life, and indeed the majority of people including scientists tell us life just "happened."

One of my favorite shows is "The Universe" series on the History channel.  I've seen scientists address this question a couple/few times and the general response was "we don't know"...not "it just happened". 

This happens to be my approach...I simply don't know what caused the big bang or where life came from originally.  I think earthly religions try to assign a face to the "causer" of this event but I think those are probably just things to pacify us until we really find out for sure [if we ever do].

I believe God is life eternal and as scientists tell us life just happened there is your answer from science itself regarding God, He has always been, He has always existed and He did not need to be created, moreover the complexity of creation points to the need for a living creator who was there from the beginning of time and is from everlasting to everlasting as evidenced by the life around us.

This is certainly a viewpoint that one can hold to, but I would like to offer mine as well.  The Universe may have a "Creator" but it may be something none of us expected.  It may be something no earthly religion describes. 

[BondServant]

Ciscokid, are you a Christian?

Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior?

In Christ,
KP

[Ciscokid]

Ciscokid, are you a Christian?

Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior?

In Christ,
KP

No Sir.  I believe that I once was, or at least I intended to be.  I was raised in a Christian home attending a fairly strict Baptist Church as well as going to a Christian school in the early part of my life.  I firmly believed the Bible and all that was written in it until I'd say my late 20's very early 30's [I'm 37 now].

[Victor08]

Ciscokid, are you a Christian?

Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior?

In Christ,
KP

No Sir.  I believe that I once was, or at least I intended to be.  I was raised in a Christian home attending a fairly strict Baptist Church as well as going to a Christian school in the early part of my life.  I firmly believed the Bible and all that was written in it until I'd say my late 20's very early 30's [I'm 37 now].

What caused you to stop believing in the Bible?

[Ciscokid]

What caused you to stop believing in the Bible?

I can highlight some key items that pushed me in that direction, if you want me to elaborate on any of them just ask.

1.  After reading a few books of the old testatment I really started getting the idea that "God" thought/acted much like a human.  As an example, Moses states that "God" told him to order the Israelites to kill every man woman and child [Midianites etc] save the virgin girls; they were to be spared and awarded to the soldiers and priests.  Sorry man, that story just reeks of humanity [human based desires/actions]  to no end.

2.  I honestly don't think the Bible describes our physical world accurately.  I don't believe the global flood story and I don't believe the garden of Eden creation story is literally true.  If the Bible can't accurately describe the physical world, how can I trust it for some invisible/ethereal world?

3.  From the moment I asked Jesus into my heart [age 6 or 7] til my late 20's I've never once experienced anything supernatural.  I started to contemplate this more, as time went on, I started to consider that perhaps there is NO supernatural world.  Or even if there is one, what does it matter; we can't really make any predictions or know exactly what this spirit world entails.  So for now I've simply filed it away as "Don't believe it til I have reason to".

4.  I became less and less impressed with the Christian worldview that I had grown so accustomed to.  Pray for something, if it works out in your favor...praise God...if it doesn't...it was God's will.  How can you ever fail?  This was a worldview that, if you looked through the right lens, everything fit so nicely, snug as a bug in a rug.  What is more important to me is, is it reality?  I don't care so much about being comforted, or made to feel special, or told that God has a special plan for me; I want to know what is reality.   To express it in another way, I'd rather shiver in the coldness of reality than be warmed by the fires of delusion.

5.  I could go on a bit more but I think I have the major points.  Ultimately, I'm not so much an atheist as I am an agnostic.  I also have questions just like everyone else, I just don't feel confident in assigning any one "identity" to the cause of the big bang.  My guess is that it's something none of us have imagined.

[Jaime]

I had some thoughts as you had, until I read The Case For Christ, by Lee Stroebel.

It didn't answer all my questions, but it answered enough so that I was willing to take the rest by faith. Which we have to do anyway. If it was all concrete, no faith would be required. Faith IS the whole point!

[Victor08]

I had some thoughts as you had, until I read The Case For Christ, by Lee Stroebel.

It didn't answer all my questions, but it answered enough so that I was willing to take the rest by faith. Which we have to do anyway. If it was all concrete, no faith would be required. Faith IS the whole point!

A Review of Lee Strobel's The Case for a Creator

LeGrande Blount

Lee Strobel, in his work The Case for a Creator, takes the long step from investigative reporter to combination biologist, anthropologist, archeologist, geneticist and paleontologist. And since he was allowed this freedom I will likewise take a similar leap. But before I start my own work it might be better to write a "How to write a Lee Strobel Investigative Essay."

[h2r77]

Great video on the watch maker principle.

http://www.kids4truth.com/watchmaker/watch.html

The correct address is

http://kids4truth.com/Dyna/Watchmaker/English.aspx

[The Barbarian]

True, watches are not living things, and don't evolve.   But what if they could?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0

[Victor08]

I often wonder what motivates an atheist or just somebody who dislikes Christianity to come on a Christian forum and argue about creation, God, Jesus, or whatever. Do you gain some kind of pleasure? Is it fun to you? Are you bored? It amazes me that people like Victor would spend so much time and effort disputing things like Lee Strobel.
I think it's healthy for the forum to have different views but some of you like to attack people personally even though you don't even know who they are just because you get some kind of weird pleasure from it.
Is there an anti-God forum somewhere that might make you happier, cause some of you sound miserable and angry all the time.

Good video, maybe some could research the complexity issue more.

"Disputing things like Lee Strobel" only took a couple of minutes.

[BondServant]

True, watches are not living things, and don't evolve.   But what if they could?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0

The evolution proponent you linked to doesn't know anything about the topic.  He claims evolution is not a theory about origins and that is completely false.

The theory of evolution states that we evolved from rocks.  Rain came from the sky.  The runoff picking up mineral and chemicals from rocks, the runoff gathered in a pool and all those chemicals formed the first amino acid.  The amino acids formed a gene which formed a cell which eventually formed us.

Bond.