Author Topic: Prying Thoughts  (Read 802 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Netchaplain

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1029
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Love God Most is Love Neighbor First- 1 John 4:20
Prying Thoughts
« on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 15:09:31 »
The desire to know the truth concerning the concept of whether or not one can lose a redemptive position in the Lord Jesus is clearly the most popular spiritual growth doctrine among the New Testament teachings (which of course is a separate issue concerning receiving salvation). It’s clear that Scripture contains language that can appear to support either concept, and I believe there are two certainties concerning this issue: that only one of these concepts is true; that until the translation of the Church there will always remain believers who will accept one or the other as truth.

It’s been wisely said that asking good questions is key to finding good answers! At present one of my most prying thoughts is why Scripture (primarily in the NT) has been written in a way that often presents significant difficulty in understanding spiritual growth truths due to numerous passages that seem to contradict and conflict with one another, even though we know there is perfect coalescence in thought and practical application within the plenary of “the Word of Truth.”

It’s my belief there are at least two possible reasons answering to this paradoxical situation; for the purpose of requiring Bible-studying believers to maintain an ever-increasing reliance on the Holy Spirit’s instructions for understanding (1Co 2:13); and to learn to exercise respect and kindness to one another amidst the ongoing frustrations that often arise when communicating beliefs with one another. For success here, what we believe to be the truth must be communicated “in love” (Eph 4:15).

Love to one another is the pinnacle goal of all Biblical doctrine, because practical love to God is only apprehended in practical love to others (1Jn 4:20); and God’s love is incomplete in us if we do not desire to love one another (4:12). It is common knowledge that loving God is obeying Him (Jhn 14:15; Jhn 14:21), therefore neighborly love is the primary work that maintains consistent obedience to Him; without which our walk and doctrinal conversation will be unsuccessful concerning spiritual growth.

Online DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17624
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #1 on: Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 06:10:24 »
It makes sense if you look at it from a covenantal viewpoint.  Salvation (in my opinion) is on the basis of covenant.

The most common example of a covenant we have in the modern world is lifelong marriage.  While it is written and designed to last a lifetime, we know that sometimes (all too often these days) it ends in divorce due to poor choices on the part of one or both parties.  The same could be said for salvation. It is designed to last forever; but poor choices that are not repented of can make us forsake that covenant.  But just as marriage dissolution is not an easy process and must be pursued intentionally, so losing one's salvation is equally difficult and intentional.

I know some in the OSAS community will state "They were never saved to begin with."  But that IMO is a cop-out, like declaring a divorced couple were never married in the first place.

Offline Netchaplain

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1029
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Love God Most is Love Neighbor First- 1 John 4:20
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #2 on: Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 14:14:17 »
It makes sense if you look at it from a conventional viewpoint.  Salvation (in my opinion) is on the basis of covenant.
Hi, and thanks for your input! I understand your reasoning, but the present Covenant has the promise that God "works" within the believer to keep from his own desire, by implanting the desire for Him (Phil 2:13). This can only mean that if one professes faith but eventually chooses to profess he doesn't believe it or want it, God was not "working" in him.

God's blessings to your Family!




Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14076
  • Manna: 333
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #3 on: Fri Sep 11, 2020 - 07:49:08 »
Hi, and thanks for your input! I understand your reasoning, but the present Covenant has the promise that God "works" within the believer to keep from his own desire, by implanting the desire for Him (Phil 2:13). This can only mean that if one professes faith but eventually chooses to profess he doesn't believe it or want it, God was not "working" in him.
I do not think that you would claim that you, a believer, has not sinned. But by your argument if the believer sins then God was not "working" in him.

Offline Netchaplain

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1029
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Love God Most is Love Neighbor First- 1 John 4:20
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #4 on: Fri Sep 11, 2020 - 15:59:17 »
I do not think that you would claim that you, a believer, has not sinned. But by your argument if the believer sins then God was not "working" in him.
It's okay, but I wasn't aware we are discussing sinning, and I don't know what you're trying to say.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14076
  • Manna: 333
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #5 on: Fri Sep 11, 2020 - 18:08:41 »
It's okay, but I wasn't aware we are discussing sinning, and I don't know what you're trying to say.
You claimed that if someone who was once a believer ceased to believe that must mean that God was not and was never "working" in him.  I simply state that by that same argument if someone who was once a believer sinned then that must be because god wasn't "working" in him and my point is that your argument is false.  We have too many passages of Scripture that warn against falling away.

Offline Netchaplain

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1029
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Love God Most is Love Neighbor First- 1 John 4:20
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #6 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:07:54 »
You claimed that if someone who was once a believer ceased to believe
I see what you mean, and thanks for the clarification. That's close to what I say, but I always say if someone professes to be a believer, not is a believer. Many profess faith but never receive it, and it unavoidably becomes evident by seeing them "depart" from their false profession. There will always be those who will "profess that they know God; but in works they deny Him" (Tit 1:16).

 

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12664
  • Manna: 750
  • Gender: Male
  • I TOO AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #7 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:21:12 »
I see what you mean, and thanks for the clarification. That's close to what I say, but I always say if someone professes to be a believer, not is a believer. Many profess faith but never receive it, and it unavoidably becomes evident by seeing them "depart" from their false profession. There will always be those who will "profess that they know God; but in works they deny Him" (Tit 1:16).

Yes I can agree with what you say but also on the other hand that does not dismiss the fact that one could be a strong believer and his life profess that but somewhere down the road life get hard and he also grows distance from his faith to the point he rejects it.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14076
  • Manna: 333
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #8 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:42:33 »
Many profess faith but never receive it.....
You have a nonbiblical definition of faith.  To have faith in something or someone is not something you receive; rather it is something you do.  To have faith in something or someone is to believe in something or someone. To have faith in God is to believe God and believe in God. 

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12664
  • Manna: 750
  • Gender: Male
  • I TOO AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #9 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:21:39 »
Quote
Many profess faith but never receive it.....


I over looked this did not read careful enough so I guess I do not totally agree with what you said I miss understood your thought I thought ahead of you as to what I thought you were saying but after reading what 4WD posted it made me see my mistake and have to agree with 4WD faith is not something one receives but something one comes to believe.

Therefore your statement "Many profess faith but never receive it" hold no water for it is a false preview of coming to faith.

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Offline Netchaplain

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1029
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Love God Most is Love Neighbor First- 1 John 4:20
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #10 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 14:50:37 »
You have a nonbiblical definition of faith.  To have faith in something or someone is not something you receive; rather it is something you do.  To have faith in something or someone is to believe in something or someone. To have faith in God is to believe God and believe in God.
I think you might mean that all have faith, which is true concerning a natural faith concerning natural things, e.g. we believe our car will start at the turn of the key, etc., but I'm referring to a spiritual faith that "not all men have" (2Th 3:2; Deu 32:20).


Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14076
  • Manna: 333
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #11 on: Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 06:26:40 »
I think you might mean that all have faith, which is true concerning a natural faith concerning natural things, e.g. we believe our car will start at the turn of the key, etc., but I'm referring to a spiritual faith that "not all men have" (2Th 3:2; Deu 32:20).
And there we see the problem.  For whatever reason, you ascribe a belief in God to be different than a belief in anything else.  It isn't.  When presented with the evidence of something that evidence is either sufficient to convince you of the truth or it is not.  Then to take it to the next step to have faith, i.e., to believe in something, is to both hold to the truth presented by the evidence and to place a trust in it. Faith, believing in, is both mental assent and trust.  If you have faith in the pilot of the plane you are taking on your next vacation, you believe he has the ability to fly the plane and you trust that he will do so effectively.  Your faith in God is really not a lot different, except for the extent of the perceived abilities and the net result of anticipated consequences.

Offline Netchaplain

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1029
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Love God Most is Love Neighbor First- 1 John 4:20
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #12 on: Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 07:58:38 »
And there we see the problem.. .
Not to refute your understanding of faith, but  I can determine natural faith by how one responds to the Gospel. They eventually depart from their false confession, and I think it's because they were talked into it instead of being convinced by the Spirit. Those who were talked into salvation will eventually and inevitably be talked out of it by themselves or someone else!

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12664
  • Manna: 750
  • Gender: Male
  • I TOO AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #13 on: Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 08:23:53 »
2Pe 2:20-22 — For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Offline Netchaplain

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1029
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Love God Most is Love Neighbor First- 1 John 4:20
Re: Prying Thoughts
« Reply #14 on: Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 16:46:51 »
2Pe 2:20-22 — "the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ . . . known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Hi, and thank you for your site labors on this forum! Like your comments because they are applicable to the issues. This passage is much like Heb 10:26, "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth." As above, these are in reference to only "receiving knowledge," which many who choose to remain unregenerate do not receive what the knowledge imparts. That would need to read, "receive the Lord Jesus," not just the knowledge of Him, or as the latter, received the truth and not just the knowledge of the truth.

Both passages evidence being non-recipients of what the knowledge is by their continuance in sin. The metaphor of the dog and pig designs the intention that there was no change in after receiving (knowing) what the truth is (Gospel), thus returning (continuing) in the state they were in.




« Last Edit: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 13:46:07 by Netchaplain »