Author Topic: The “Walk”  (Read 1124 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #35 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 09:39:28 »
One thing that needs to be kept in mind when we read Paul talking about "works."  He uses that specifically in terms of obeying the Law of Moses.  If it is not a command or prohibition in the Law, it is not what he is talking about.
Romans 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:2
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #35 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 09:39:28 »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #36 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 10:00:30 »
One thing that needs to be kept in mind when we read Paul talking about "works."  He uses that specifically in terms of obeying the Law of Moses.  If it is not a command or prohibition in the Law, it is not what he is talking about.
That is mostly correct.  Paul uses "works" in not just works of the Law of Moses, but works in any law system that one lives by.

IOW, believing in the death burial and resurrection of our Lord is NOT a "work." James 2:17
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
And neither is repenting, confessing, and being baptized.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #37 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 11:23:15 »
That is mostly correct.  Paul uses "works" in not just works of the Law of Moses, but works in any law system that one lives by.
In general, that is true; but it is NOT what the apostle is talking about as the quotes i listed plainly state. 

Quote
And neither is repenting, confessing, and being baptized.
Agreed.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #38 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 12:03:12 »
In general, that is true; but it is NOT what the apostle is talking about as the quotes i listed plainly state. 
Agreed.
But none of those quotes you listed say "Law of Moses".  I would refer you back to what Paul said in a few verses earlier; namely, For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them (Rom 2:13-15).

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #39 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 12:12:32 »
But none of those quotes you listed say "Law of Moses".
Why would it need to?  In the greek the word is "nomos" which is used in the LXX to translate "Torah."  So when Paul uses nomos -  he means Torah -  the Law of Moses.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #39 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 12:12:32 »



Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #40 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 12:57:53 »
Actually grace is the basis for salvation, the blood of Christ is the means, and faith is the condition.

Wrong............Grace is the source of our salvation from sin and condemnation; the blood of Christ the means of securing that salvation; our faith is the evidence both to ourself and others, that we have been made partakers of God's grace.

The grace of God sure foundation rests solely in two immutable acts of God~his holy oath and his promises to Jesus Christ and his elect body.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 6:13-19~"For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;"

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #41 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 13:29:27 »
Why would it need to?  In the greek the word is "nomos" which is used in the LXX to translate "Torah."  So when Paul uses nomos -  he means Torah -  the Law of Moses.
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law [GR - nomos] to themselves, even though they do not have the law. Clearly that is not the Law of Moses.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #42 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 13:51:19 »
I'll go and locate some of those threads that were posted on this very subject
Try this one:     http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/ephesians-28-98051/1295/   Start here and read the seven proofs       Reply #1321 on: Sat Aug 18, 2018 - 07:50:02 »
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 13:56:31 by RB »

Offline Rella

  • ..
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8159
  • Manna: 659
  • callmerella@gmail.com
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #43 on: Fri Jan 22, 2021 - 20:48:49 »
Agreed:

“Regeneration absolutely precedes believing.”

In the same manner, the life of a child absolutely precedes the birth of that child.

As we cannot credit ourselves with giving ourself the gift of eternal life, so a child cannot credit themselves with either their conception to life or their own natural birth.

You are referring to regeneration as new birth or born again?

So what you are saying is that God predetermines, before a child is born, if that child
will grow up and will be regenerated... or born again... and then will believe? In that order?

Am I wrong??? Ephesians tells us we are saved through faith. But you say that faith does not come until your regenerated first?

 Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

All along I thought that Regeneration is the work of God through the Holy Spirit within a person who already has "saving faith," in which a new nature is given that makes the person capable of doing the will of God.

And  conversion looks at the salvation experience from a human perspective, regeneration describes the same experience from a divine perspective.

And the  only means of regeneration is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Which tells me that my faith...my belief.... could not come after regeneration.



Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #44 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 05:46:53 »
You are referring to regeneration as new birth or born again?

So what you are saying is that God predetermines, before a child is born, if that child
will grow up and will be regenerated... or born again... and then will believe? In that order?

Am I wrong??? Ephesians tells us we are saved through faith. But you say that faith does not come until your regenerated first?

 Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

All along I thought that Regeneration is the work of God through the Holy Spirit within a person who already has "saving faith," in which a new nature is given that makes the person capable of doing the will of God.

And  conversion looks at the salvation experience from a human perspective, regeneration describes the same experience from a divine perspective.

And the  only means of regeneration is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Which tells me that my faith...my belief.... could not come after regeneration.
With all due respect, you are not alone in your understanding, yet dear soul, the scriptures will not support your understanding, or, anyone else who believes the same.

It is very clear to me and should be to others who have an overall understanding of the scriptures concerning the nature of man that Paul used "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 as a metonym for Christ. Even within the context of Ephesians 2:1-9, this is clearly taught~context is KING and drives our understanding of the scriptures under consideration.
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 2:1-10~"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Rella, what makes you think....
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 20:48:49
All along I thought that Regeneration is the work of God through the Holy Spirit within a person who already has "saving faith,"
Actually that statement within itself is an oxymoron statement if one truly considers what you are trying to convey. Please do not take this as a personal attack for it is not, I'm only laboring to help you see the inconsistency of your statement.  Really how can it truly be a work of the Spirit within of a person who already has saving faith, that makes no sense and the reason why is because it is empty of any biblical truth on this doctrine before us.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 20:48:49
And the  only means of regeneration is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.
That's is not the teaching of the word of God, that's man's teaching and another gospel and a very popular one I might add. The only means of regeneration is faith and obedience of our Head, Jesus Christ~this is clearly taught here in these verse scriptures before us. So, now let us very briefly consider them.
Quote from: Paul, the great defender of the gospel of Jesus Christ
Ephesians 2:1-3"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
Very briefly~Paul, in chapter one told us the Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by the exceedingly greatness of God power, and so were WE OURSELVES:
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 1:19~And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Paul compares us being dead in trespasses and sin to Christ being dead in the grave~and he tells us the each required the SAME POWER to raised both! Proving that regeneration must preceed faith. Verses two and three of Ephesians 2, clearly states that we were NO DIFFERENT from the rest of the world, the only difference between us is the grace of God excising his holy will by two immutable acts~his holy oath and promises to the seed of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Ephesians 2:4-7~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."
Again, briefly~ God's great love wherewith he loved us from the foundation of the world, or from eternity, has never changed even while in a state of our disobedience, that love NEVER diminished for Christ sake, base on the help that God laid upon him to secured our redemption. We were chosen IN CHRIST from the foundation of the world and there GRACE was promised to us~per Psalms 89, etc.

When Christ came into the world he came NOT as a private person, but as HEAD of a seed chosen of God. What he did, THEY DID; when he died, THEY died; when he arose, THEY AROSE. Listen carefully to Paul:
Quote
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."
Of course this is true only in a legal sense, but it is AS GOOD AS THOUGH it is a FINISHED transaction!
Quote from:
Ephesians 2:8,9~"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Based on ALL that Paul has said from Ephesians 1:19 to 2:7 he said FOR by grace are you saved (nowhere is a man seen in any of those scriptures as having an ounce of work to offer God in order for God to save them, besides they WERE DEAD IN SINS, just as dead as Christ was.) through faith~it should be clear WHOSE FAITH Paul is speaking about~certianly NOT man's, but Christ.  As matter of fact, Paul even stresses that faith is NOT of ourselves and added that it was a gift of God, that HE PROVIDED through his Son. Now, if a man could have faith, then, of course, he could boast and WOULD, knowing the pride of sinful man.

Why would any person believe that faith in Ephesians 2:8 comes from the man in any form whatsoever when God's law DEMANDS PERFECT FAITH AND OBEDIENCE before one escapes the curse of the law. The very best of God's children in the scriptures had SIN mixed with their faith, which should be a witness to all that faith in Ephesians 2:8 is Christ's faith, not faith that comes from the lips of man where it is mixed with sin and could never be the means of our regeneration, NEVER!  MY best acts of faith would condemn me to the lake of fire which is the second death. Selah..... and so would every other person's faith regardless of what they may think of their faith.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #45 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 06:51:49 »
You are referring to regeneration as new birth or born again?

So what you are saying is that God predetermines, before a child is born, if that child
will grow up and will be regenerated... or born again... and then will believe? In that order?
That is precisely what he is saying.  And it is wrong; so very, very wrong.  The elect/reprobate theology presented by Calvinism and some others is absolutely detestable; so much so that I consider it to be outright heresy. It turns God into the ogre who delights in condemning the vast majority of human beings to hell when He could have done just the opposite.  The interesting feature of that theology is that I have never come across anyone who held that theology that wasn't absolutely convinced that he, of course, was among the elect.  It is always the other guy who is the reprobate.
And the  only means of regeneration is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.
Perhaps a big problem here is that there isn't agreement on the definition of words in this discussion.  In this controversy the meaning of such words as "faith", "salvation", "regeneration", "works", and "elect", to note just a few, do not carry a common definition; and I would argue that those holding to the elect/reprobate theology of  Calvinism hold to unbiblical definitions of such words.  Their definitions are altered in order to make the meanings fit their bogus theology.

Offline Netchaplain

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1016
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Love God Most is Love Neighbor First- 1 John 4:20
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #46 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 07:01:35 »
Doesn't that agree completely with what RB is telling you?  If faith comes from the Spirit, to whom does faith come?
Only man needs the fruit of faith from the Spirit, if that's what you mean.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #47 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 07:21:02 »
Based on ALL that Paul has said from Ephesians 1:19 to 2:7 he said FOR by grace are you saved (nowhere is a man seen in any of those scriptures as having an ounce of work to offer God in order for God to save them, besides they WERE DEAD IN SINS, just as dead as Christ was.) through faith~it should be clear WHOSE FAITH Paul is speaking about~certianly NOT man's, but Christ.
And yet again you insist in salvation through faith it is Christ's faith not man's faith, appealing to the improper KJV translation/interpretation of a few key verses such as Romans 3:22..  And yet you have never been able to even explain what "faith OF Christ" even means.  If by the phrase, "faith OF Christ", you intend the religious system whereby God's plan of salvation is implemented, I might accept that in some instances; however, that is not your intention typically, and not your intention here; you more often speak of the "faith OF Christ", as "Jesus' perfect faith, obedience and righteousness".  His "perfect obedience and righteousness" is absolutely acceptable.  His "perfect faith" is an oxymoron.  Such faith, defined by God Himself in Hebrews 11 is "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen", cannot be applied to Jesus, the second person of the Trinity.  In relation to the salvation of mankind, for Jesus there are no things hoped for or things not seen.  He knows all and understands all.  As I said, such a definition applied to Jesus Christ is an oxymoron --  it is wrong.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #48 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 07:39:12 »
Only man needs the fruit of faith from the Spirit, if that's what you mean.
What I am asking is does faith come to a sinner, or does faith come only to one who as already been regenerated, one who has been born again.  Do we receive the Spirit by faith or do we receive faith by the Spirit? Does God first save us and then we believe or do we believe and then God saves us? I would argue that the entire Bible is consistent in the concept that it is the believer that is saved. Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." To be counted to for righteousness is to be counted as righteous; to be counted as righteous is to be justified is to be saved. 

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
  • Manna: 26
  • That’s 666 YEARS, people.
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #49 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 08:05:01 »
Hey 4WD,

Who said anything about God delighting to condemn the “vast majority to Hell”?  We have indications that it is the “vast majority” who will be REGENERATED, not condemned to destruction.  After all, it IS called a “WHEAT harvest”, not a “TARES harvest”, isn’t it? 

And God is not to blame for the existence of the minority of the “tares” appearing among the majority of the “wheat” at harvest time.  In the parable, Jesus said that the “enemy that sowed them is the DEVIL”.  The MINORITY of humanity that WILL REMAIN children of the devil causing their eventual destruction became that because of the devil who was the murderer of our race from the beginning.  “...He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth.”  (John 8:44). 

“Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways and live?”  (Ezekiel 18:23).  This portrays the heart intent of God - not one who delights in condemning humankind which He created. 

And He knows that if left to ourselves in our “murdered” condition due to the Devil’s work, that we would never be capable of restoring ourselves to life.  “There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God.” (Rom. 3:11).  Corpses don’t resurrect of their own volition; they must be acted upon by an outside life force even BEFORE they can begin to perform acts that give evidence of life - like believing and exercising faith.

Rella, that first act of believing and exercising the gift of faith is akin to the first breath that a newborn baby takes after leaving the womb.  But who except for the most hardened abortion advocate would argue that the newborn baby did not have life given to it even BEFORE it exited the womb into the light of day?  What pregnant woman does not feel the living movements of a child within her body, even BEFORE the first living breath of that child gives evidence to others that life had ALREADY been given to them from conception?  So it is with believing and exercising our gift of faith.

Just so it was in the case of the unborn John the Baptist.  He was filled with the Holy Ghost, “even from his mother’s womb”, the angel told Zacharias.  I find it amazing that a six-month-old fetus in Elizabeth’s womb could display the Fruit of the Spirit by instinctively and JOYFULLY recognizing the presence of a newly-conceived Jesus arriving while in Mary’s womb.  Was this not a predestined choice of electing the unborn John the Baptist to eternal life - even BEFORE he was conceived?  God can truly “...quicken the dead, and call those things that BE NOT” (don’t exist yet) “as though they were.” (Rom. 4:17).  John the Baptist is but one of the more obvious examples we are given of this.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #50 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 08:47:04 »
Hey 4WD,

Who said anything about God delighting to condemn the “vast majority to Hell”? 
You, Calvinists, Reformed Theologians to name a few.  That is the elect/reprobate proclamation.  It is central to that theology.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections
We have indications that it is the “vast majority” who will be REGENERATED, not condemned to destruction.  After all, it IS called a “WHEAT harvest”, not a “TARES harvest”, isn’t it?
Mat 7:13  "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14  For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.


Quote from: 3 Resurrections
And God is not to blame for the existence of the minority of the “tares” appearing among the majority of the “wheat” at harvest time.
If it is necessary for God to first regenerate a sinner before he can become a believer, as you suggested, and if there is a sinner that God does not regenerate, then it is God not the sinner that must be responsible for the sinners unbelief.  But that of course is not true making the whole elect/reprobate doctrine heretically false to the core. And it makes the doctrine of "regeneration before believing" an absolutely nauseating.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #51 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 08:58:06 »
“Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways and live?”  (Ezekiel 18:23).  This portrays the heart intent of God - not one who delights in condemning humankind which He created. 
That should be a very strong signal that the idea that regeneration is required before the wicked can return from his ways is obviously false.  But it seems you do not understand that.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections
Just so it was in the case of the unborn John the Baptist.  He was filled with the Holy Ghost, “even from his mother’s womb”, the angel told Zacharias.  I find it amazing that a six-month-old fetus in Elizabeth’s womb could display the Fruit of the Spirit by instinctively and JOYFULLY recognizing the presence of a newly-conceived Jesus arriving while in Mary’s womb.  Was this not a predestined choice of electing the unborn John the Baptist to eternal life - even BEFORE he was conceived?  God can truly “...quicken the dead, and call those things that BE NOT” (don’t exist yet) “as though they were.” (Rom. 4:17).  John the Baptist is but one of the more obvious examples we are given of this.
Being filled with the Holy Spirit and regeneration are not at all the same. 

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #52 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 09:12:25 »
What I am asking is does faith come to a sinner, or does faith come only to one who as already been regenerated, one who has been born again. Do we receive the Spirit by faith or do we receive faith by the Spirit?
This question is very simply answered by the Author of the holy scriptures, the Spirit Himself.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:2~"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
We received the knowledge of the indwelling Spirit by hearing of the holy scriptures, and apart from them we would not know the first truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ as I pointed out when this thread first started. Folks like you and others believe the Spirit is given to us through/by WORKS of a law commandment, as though men who are at enmity against God can perform!
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 09:21:43 by RB »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #53 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 09:19:45 »
That is precisely what he is saying.  And it is wrong; so very, very wrong.  The elect/reprobate theology presented by Calvinism and some others is absolutely detestable; so much so that I consider it to be outright heresy. It turns God into the ogre who delights in condemning the vast majority of human beings to hell when He could have done just the opposite.  The interesting feature of that theology is that I have never come across anyone who held that theology that wasn't absolutely convinced that he, of course, was among the elect.  It is always the other guy who is the reprobate.Perhaps a big problem here is that there isn't agreement on the definition of words in this discussion.  In this controversy the meaning of such words as "faith", "salvation", "regeneration", "works", and "elect", to note just a few, do not carry a common definition; and I would argue that those holding to the elect/reprobate theology of  Calvinism hold to unbiblical definitions of such words.  Their definitions are altered in order to make the meanings fit their bogus theology.
Marking this so I can address this later, and address it I shall by the help of God of the scriptures.

Offline Rella

  • ..
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8159
  • Manna: 659
  • callmerella@gmail.com
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #54 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 09:42:06 »
With all due respect, you are not alone in your understanding, yet dear soul, the scriptures will not support your understanding, or, anyone else who believes the same.

It is very clear to me and should be to others who have an overall understanding of the scriptures concerning the nature of man that Paul used "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 as a metonym for Christ. Even within the context of Ephesians 2:1-9, this is clearly taught~context is KING and drives our understanding of the scriptures under consideration.  Rella, what makes you think....Actually that statement within itself is an oxymoron statement if one truly considers what you are trying to convey. Please do not take this as a personal attack for it is not, I'm only laboring to help you see the inconsistency of your statement.  Really how can it truly be a work of the Spirit within of a person who already has saving faith, that makes no sense and the reason why is because it is empty of any biblical truth on this doctrine before us. That's is not the teaching of the word of God, that's man's teaching and another gospel and a very popular one I might add. The only means of regeneration is faith and obedience of our Head, Jesus Christ~this is clearly taught here in these verse scriptures before us. So, now let us very briefly consider them.Very briefly~Paul, in chapter one told us the Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by the exceedingly greatness of God power, and so were WE OURSELVES:Paul compares us being dead in trespasses and sin to Christ being dead in the grave~and he tells us the each required the SAME POWER to raised both! Proving that regeneration must preceed faith. Verses two and three of Ephesians 2, clearly states that we were NO DIFFERENT from the rest of the world, the only difference between us is the grace of God excising his holy will by two immutable acts~his holy oath and promises to the seed of Jesus Christ. Again, briefly~ God's great love wherewith he loved us from the foundation of the world, or from eternity, has never changed even while in a state of our disobedience, that love NEVER diminished for Christ sake, base on the help that God laid upon him to secured our redemption. We were chosen IN CHRIST from the foundation of the world and there GRACE was promised to us~per Psalms 89, etc.

When Christ came into the world he came NOT as a private person, but as HEAD of a seed chosen of God. What he did, THEY DID; when he died, THEY died; when he arose, THEY AROSE. Listen carefully to Paul: Of course this is true only in a legal sense, but it is AS GOOD AS THOUGH it is a FINISHED transaction! Based on ALL that Paul has said from Ephesians 1:19 to 2:7 he said FOR by grace are you saved (nowhere is a man seen in any of those scriptures as having an ounce of work to offer God in order for God to save them, besides they WERE DEAD IN SINS, just as dead as Christ was.) through faith~it should be clear WHOSE FAITH Paul is speaking about~certianly NOT man's, but Christ.  As matter of fact, Paul even stresses that faith is NOT of ourselves and added that it was a gift of God, that HE PROVIDED through his Son. Now, if a man could have faith, then, of course, he could boast and WOULD, knowing the pride of sinful man.

Why would any person believe that faith in Ephesians 2:8 comes from the man in any form whatsoever when God's law DEMANDS PERFECT FAITH AND OBEDIENCE before one escapes the curse of the law. The very best of God's children in the scriptures had SIN mixed with their faith, which should be a witness to all that faith in Ephesians 2:8 is Christ's faith, not faith that comes from the lips of man where it is mixed with sin and could never be the means of our regeneration, NEVER!  MY best acts of faith would condemn me to the lake of fire which is the second death. Selah..... and so would every other person's faith regardless of what they may think of their faith.

This is not addressing your belief that
Quote
Regeneration absolutely precedes believing.

Regeneration cannot be the beginning and IS NOT the suggestion through out the bible.

Is it your idea you believe that God pre-selects who will be ultimately saved and live eternity with Him, Jesus or wherever and whenever  they are placed.

If I am wrong, this is what I have read from you in all these years, please correct me, for I am not the only one that sees this in you.

The KJV Dictionery defines regeneration as...

KJV Dictionary Definition: regenerate
regenerate
REGEN'ERATE, v.t. L. regenero; re and genero. See Generate.

1. To generate or produce anew; to reproduce.

Through all the soil a genial ferment spreads, regenerates the plants and new adorns the meads.

2. In theology, to renew the heart by a change of affections; to change the heart and affections from natural enmity to the love of God; to implant holy affections in the heart.

REGEN'ERATE, a. L. regeneratus.

1. Reproduced.

2. Born anew; renovated in heart; changed from a natural to a spiritual state.

regenerated
REGEN'ERATED, pp.

1. Reproduced.

2. Renewed; born again.

regenerateness
REGEN'ERATENESS, n. The state of being regenerated.

regenerating
REGEN'ERATING, ppr.

1. Reproducing.

2. Renovating the nature by the implantation of holy affections in the heart.

regeneration
REGENERA'TION, n.

1. Reproduction; the act of producing anew.

2. In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.

He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3.

You are saying that a person is regenerated , or made anew (born again) before they have any knowledge of the road they will travel in their quest for eternity, or any desire to even basically learn about that road.  I dont buy it.

Even Nicodemus who knew Jesus was from God...  " The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

And Jesus went on and said " Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. and  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

" Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

But the born again... regeneration... comes after a certain amount of believing and then wanting what one now knows something about or Jesus could well have simply said to Nicodemus. "Sorry, too late".

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #55 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 10:23:20 »
This question is very simply answered by the Author of the holy scriptures, the Spirit Himself. We received the knowledge of the indwelling Spirit by hearing of the holy scriptures, and apart from them we would not know the first truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ as I pointed out when this thread first started. Folks like you and others believe the Spirit is given to us through/by WORKS of a law commandment, as though men who are at enmity against God can perform!
RB, there is not one word in that verse that speaks about receiving knowledge of the indwelling Spirit; rather it speaks about receiving the Spirit.  That you try to subvert such of powerful statement is not good.  That you continue to forcibly corrupt God's word with such alterations is really bad.  And as far as works go, the only difficulty here is that you obviously don't know what "works of law" even mean.

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
  • Manna: 26
  • That’s 666 YEARS, people.
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #56 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 10:26:44 »
Hey again 4WD,

It should be obvious that God does not “Fill with the Spirit” someone who is not regenerated.  It’s evidence of regeneration.  John the Baptist showed this particular sign of regeneration even BEFORE he was born. 

According to your order of operations in salvation, a baby would be portrayed as being born BEFORE it is conceived into life.  Not possible in the natural realm, and not possible in the spiritual realm either.  Regeneration (comparable to human conception) comes BEFORE the visible evidence of believing and confessing Christ in faith (comparable to a baby’s visible first breath of life).

And according to your order of operations for salvation, no child who is miscarried or aborted before birth would stand a chance of gaining eternal life, since they would have no opportunity of visibly exercising belief or faith before God is able to regenerate them.  And don’t give me the excuse that God applies different rules of salvation in their case.  We are never told that from scripture.  God can exercise mercy by regenerating at any time, even in the womb, as John the Baptist gives proof.

And you cannot use the verses about the “narrow gate” which applied to that first-century generation of ethnic ISRAELITES - the “remnant” - and apply this specific  minority limit across the board to ALL of humanity’s total number of individuals.  Romans 9:27 repeated Isaiah’s prophecy that “Though the number of the children of ISRAEL be as the sand of the sea, a REMNANT shall be saved.”   Paul confirmed this by saying, “Even so then AT THIS PRESENT TIME” (during the first century) “also there is A REMNANT according to the election of grace.” (Rom. 11:5).  The “narrow gate” applied to ETHNIC ISRAEL IN *THAT* CENTURY - not to the majority of the total of humanity that will end up being regenerated over all of human history.

For that minority of the “children of the devil” that God does NOT end up regenerating, it is the “ENEMY” (the Devil) that is to blame for murdering them - not God.  Are you going to blame GOD for the death resulting from Adam exercising his free will to obey Satan’s temptation instead of heeding God’s  warning?  That is twisted thinking; a straw man that you are inventing, and one that you presume we are presenting.  How could GOD be faulted for not rescuing and regenerating EVERYONE without exception from the results of free-will choices to sin?  Especially when He forewarned them of the results beforehand. 

God will give to most what He owes to none.  Instead of praising Him for His generosity to the majority, you want to vilify Him for leaving the minority to the results of their own chosen folly.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #57 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 10:45:07 »
Hey again 4WD,

It should be obvious that God does not “Fill with the Spirit” someone who is not regenerated.  It’s evidence of regeneration.  John the Baptist showed this particular sign of regeneration even BEFORE he was born. 
Hey 3 Res,

Show me one example in the Old Testament of anyone who is described as being regenerated. You obviously don't understand even what regeneration is.  Regeneration, i.e., being born again, is strictly a New Covenant operation.  Such did not exist under the Old Covenant.  On the other hand filled with the Spirit was described for many, not nearly all, in the Old Testament.  It was striclty for the purpose of impowering supernatural capabilities. And it was not limited to believers or even to people.  Balaam's donkey was just so empowered. Some filling with the Spirit continued into the New Covenant with some but not all.  Whether it continues to this day is a subject of much dispute and discussion.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #58 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 10:51:41 »
God will give to most what He owes to none.  Instead of praising Him for His generosity to the majority, you want to vilify Him for leaving the minority to the results of their own chosen folly.
That is not me wanting that.  That is what you claim.  You claim that those God doesn't regenerate have no choice in the matter at all.  Moreover, you claim that God's decision of whom to regenerate have nothing whatsoever to do with the individuals, themselves,  He regenerates.  How rediculous is that?

I am curious, 3 Res, have you been regenerated?  If you think so, prove it.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #59 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 10:56:01 »
Being filled with the Spirit has nothing whatsoever to do with being born again, being regenerated.  And being regenerated has nothing to do with being filled with the Spirit. Regeneration and filling with the Spirit are two separate works, or functions, of the Holy Spirit.

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
  • Manna: 26
  • That’s 666 YEARS, people.
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #60 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 11:49:17 »
I never said regeneration and being filled with the Spirit were the same identical function, 4WD.  The latter is EVIDENCE of the former.  Regeneration initiates a life that is brought back from the dead.  Living actions then flow from that living condition which the Spirit initiated.  Everyone believing and confessing Christ is showing evidence that the Spirit has already initiated life in them by its regenerating power.

This “regeneration” term, depending on context, can refer to either a restoration of PHYSICAL life, or a restoration of SPIRITUAL life.  (And the saints’ salvation inheritance includes both.) This term as referring to the regeneration of physical life in the resurrection is as old as Job 14:14 (LXX).  “For if a man should die, shall he LIVE AGAIN, having accomplished the days of his life?  I will wait till I EXIST AGAIN” (or “am made again” - palin genomai).  This describes a regeneration of Job’s physical life he would wait for after his death had occurred.  This “EXISTING AGAIN” is promised to those who have already been regenerated spiritually - whether that spiritual regeneration was done at sometime in the womb or later on. 

Because Job 14:14 talks about the “regeneration” process of being “made again” physically in a resurrection, this is a tacit admission that OT saints were also spiritually regenerated, because the physical “regeneration” always FOLLOWS the former spiritual regeneration, as the final result of it.  Once the Spirit begins its life-inducing spiritual work of regeneration in a person, it finishes its work by “regenerating” that persons physical body as well. 

And your question if I personally have been regenerated?  “We know that we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren.”  I love the brethren on this website - all of them.  Hopefully I am giving evidence of my former regeneration in every word I post.  Does that answer your question?


Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #61 on: Sat Jan 23, 2021 - 13:26:43 »
I never said regeneration and being filled with the Spirit were the same identical function, 4WD.  The latter is EVIDENCE of the former. 
Not even close.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #62 on: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 05:19:22 »
This is not addressing your belief that....Regeneration cannot be the beginning and IS NOT the suggestion through out the bible.
God's word does not suggest doctrines, God's word declares the truth and our job is to be a workman that needs not be ashamed but one that labors to rightly divide the word of truth, per 2nd Timothy 2:5; Nehemiah 8:8, etc. To honour both God and help our fellowmen. Without controversy, regeneration is the beginning of life, spiritual as well as natural. What's so hard to understand that simple truth? It really is not, but hard for folks to confess, for then, their system of biblical salvation would crumble to the ground~just as Dagon the god of the Philistines fell before the Ark of God.
Quote from: Samuel
1st Samuel 5:1-5~"And the Philistines took the ark of God, and brought it from Ebenezer unto Ashdod. When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon. And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the LORD. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again. And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him. Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagon's house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day."
Folks can labor to disprove truth in favor of their own idol of doctrines, yet false doctrine will ever fall before the truth, and each time it will cause even a more revelation of its lack of power to stand before the truth of God.
Quote from: Rella Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 09:42:06
Is it your idea you believe that God pre-selects who will be ultimately saved and live eternity with Him, Jesus or wherever and whenever  they are placed.

If I am wrong, this is what I have read from you in all these years, please correct me, for I am not the only one that sees this in you.
It not my idea, but it is truth that God according to his own will ordained men to salvation based only on His will. But, that not what we are discussing, per say, but, yes I do believe in that truth will all of my being, based among the testimony of God Himself.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 13:48~"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
One more for now:
Quote from: Paul in his preaching
2nd Timothy 1:9~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
You wrote:
Quote from: Rella Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 09:42:06
In theology, to renew the heart by a change of affections; to change the heart and affections from natural enmity to the love of God; to implant holy affections in the heart.
Rella, perfect definition, and I agree 100% with it and so does my teachings. Strange that you would post this and then deny the same. So, do you truly believe man does this or, is this a work of the Spirit of God toward a man by his mighty power, JUST AS I SAID ABOVE by quoting Ephesians 1:19-2:1

Rella, can a black man change his skin? Or, a leopard his spots? God will answer this for you:
Quote from: Jeremiah
Jeremiah 13:23~"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
The only way a man can do righteous deeds is FIRST for him to be given a NEW HEART in regenation.
Quote from: God Almighty
Ezekiel 36:26,27~"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Many others could be given.
Quote from: Rella Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 09:42:06
Reproduction; the act of producing anew.

2. In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.
Well, you are stepping right into my well house~I agree 100%, and thank you for posting this, it makes my work easier.
Quote from: Rella Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 09:42:06
You are saying that a person is regenerated , or made anew (born again) before they have any knowledge of the road they will travel in their quest for eternity, or any desire to even basically learn about that road.  I dont buy it.
Well, you not buying this truth does not lessen its value, many others reject it as well.
Quote from: A Wise man
Proverbs 23:23~"Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding."
Truth: right, honest, and real knowledge about any subject. Wisdom: prudent ability to discern and to know what is right. Instruction: directions and teaching from others wiser than you. Understanding: comprehending the value and use of truth and wisdom. If it is taught in the holy scriptures then I WANT IT and I care less what others believe about biblical truths, knowing if it is popular, then most likely it is false, if hated by most, then that would be a good sign that it has the truth. (Luke 16:15)
Quote from: Rella Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 09:42:06
Even Nicodemus who knew Jesus was from God...  " The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

And Jesus went on and said " Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. and  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

" Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

But the born again... regeneration... comes after a certain amount of believing and then wanting what one now knows something about or Jesus could well have simply said to Nicodemus. "Sorry, too late".
I'm coming back to Nicodemus and see why do we have this discourse recorded for us in the scriptures.


Offline Rella

  • ..
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8159
  • Manna: 659
  • callmerella@gmail.com
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #63 on: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 07:23:03 »
God's word does not suggest doctrines, God's word declares the truth and our job is to be a workman that needs not be ashamed but one that labors to rightly divide the word of truth, per 2nd Timothy 2:5; Nehemiah 8:8, etc. To honour both God and help our fellowmen. Without controversy, regeneration is the beginning of life, spiritual as well as natural. What's so hard to understand that simple truth? It really is not, but hard for folks to confess, for then, their system of biblical salvation would crumble to the ground~just as Dagon the god of the Philistines fell before the Ark of God. Folks can labor to disprove truth in favor of their own idol of doctrines, yet false doctrine will ever fall before the truth, and each time it will cause even a more revelation of its lack of power to stand before the truth of God.It not my idea, but it is truth that God according to his own will ordained men to salvation based only on His will. But, that not what we are discussing, per say, but, yes I do believe in that truth will all of my being, based among the testimony of God Himself.One more for now:You wrote:Rella, perfect definition, and I agree 100% with it and so does my teachings. Strange that you would post this and then deny the same. So, do you truly believe man does this or, is this a work of the Spirit of God toward a man by his mighty power, JUST AS I SAID ABOVE by quoting Ephesians 1:19-2:1

Rella, can a black man change his skin? Or, a leopard his spots? God will answer this for you:The only way a man can do righteous deeds is FIRST for him to be given a NEW HEART in regenation.Many others could be given. Well, you are stepping right into my well house~I agree 100%, and thank you for posting this, it makes my work easier.Well, you not buying this truth does not lessen its value, many others reject it as well.Truth: right, honest, and real knowledge about any subject. Wisdom: prudent ability to discern and to know what is right. Instruction: directions and teaching from others wiser than you. Understanding: comprehending the value and use of truth and wisdom. If it is taught in the holy scriptures then I WANT IT and I care less what others believe about biblical truths, knowing if it is popular, then most likely it is false, if hated by most, then that would be a good sign that it has the truth. (Luke 16:15)I'm coming back to Nicodemus and see why do we have this discourse recorded for us in the scriptures.

Quote
God's word does not suggest doctrines, God's word declares the truth and our job is to be a workman that needs not be ashamed but one that labors to rightly divide the word of truth, per 2nd Timothy 2:5; Nehemiah 8:8, etc.

Rightly divide the word of truth  ???  I agree. However, as has been demonstrated time and again within these threads of the entire GC forums.... is not what your fellow man necessarily agrees with.  So does that mean that only you have been given the correct understanding of what your forefathers going back to penning the sacred words meant?



Quote
To honour both God and help our fellowmen.
[/size]

To honor God seems appropriate, but to help our fellowmen. Hmmm. For once I am glad your biblical forefathers were men and not women. I am quite glad I have not been charged with helping your fellowmen cause there is more then mild divisiveness among them including you and for once I cannot be blamed, thank you very much . ::lookaround::

However
Quote

Without controversy, regeneration is the beginning of life, spiritual as well as natural. What's so hard to understand that simple truth?

It is impossible to comprehend simply because if this was true.... then

Peter 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

would be a lie.

How so? Because in the first place you have not demonstrated when regeneration first came about in the Holy Words.

Was it in Adam? Perhaps Moses? or could it have been after the birth of Chirst when His men were teaching and preaching about him?  At the very least then God would have
all regenerated ( born again) no matter and we all... including the Charlie Manson's of this world will one day be sitting around the old heavenly campfire singing Kumbaya.

I have always been  led to understand without the shed blood of Jesus we would not be going anywhere in a heavenly eternity.

So if God is pre-selecting folks, for whatever reason he selects them, then that does make Peter 10:34 wrong because other religions do not even acknowledge God for who He is and therefore I cannot believe they were regenerated souls at any point in their lives, until they start their own searching and come to the truth.


Quote
It really is not, but hard for folks to confess, for then, their system of biblical salvation would crumble to the ground
[/size]

If all are regenerated ... born again... at birth, then why the necessity of even bothering to learn and grow toward God?

Even the OSAS folks do not believe in regeneration as you do.

Jesus told Nicodemus.....   All biblical quotes John 3 KJV to avoid arguement.

Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”  then... Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born from above.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus was not regenerated (born again... yet) or Jesus would have answered him differently.
But Nicodemus was aware of Jesus being from God and was wanting to know about salvation.

"The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him."

And it was the searching and wanting to know that came first. Jesus told him how.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #64 on: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 08:48:15 »
It is impossible to comprehend simply because if this was true.... then Peter 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: would be a lie.
In every instance this phrase is used in the word of God it has reference to "conditions in life"~be it speaking of nations, color of skin, rich, poor, wise or unwise, bond or free, etc.~ Yet, AMONG these he has a chosen people.
Quote from: The apostle James, brother of Jude
James 2:1-5~My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
God also has chosen the rich, yet not many of them; also the wise, yet not many of them, etc. See 1st Corinthians 1~so, when we read that God is no respect of persons, we understand the biblical sense of that phrase to mean one's conditions in life~or else, you will have the word of God contradicting itself.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:23:03
How so? Because in the first place you have not demonstrated when regeneration first came about in the Holy Words.

Was it in Adam? Perhaps Moses?
Very simple question for one to answer~Abel.
Quote from: John
1st John 3:12~"Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 11:4~By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
You said:
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:23:03
I have always been led to understand without the shed blood of Jesus we would not be going anywhere in a heavenly eternity.
Agreed~no one here has ever said otherwise.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:23:03
If all are regenerated ... born again... at birth, then why the necessity of even bothering to learn and grow toward God?
I have never said all are born again at birth, and no one else has, so not sure how you came to that conclusion.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:23:03
Even the OSAS folks do not believe in regeneration as you do.
I'm not of the camp OSAS~because there is a biblical sense we can lose the PRACTICAL SALVATION that comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. Yet we cannot lose of legal salvation secured for us BY CHRIST JESUS. So, you can say I believe in OLAL!...... Once Loved Always Loved. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Another post forthcoming on John 3. My wife just informed me that we are taking our granddaughters (twins) out this afternoon for their birthday, so I might need to get some rest.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 24, 2021 - 08:53:59 by RB »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #65 on: Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 05:02:03 »
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 07:23:03
Jesus told Nicodemus.....   All biblical quotes John 3 KJV to avoid arguement.

Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”  then... Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born from above.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus was not regenerated (born again... yet) or Jesus would have answered him differently.
But Nicodemus was aware of Jesus being from God and was wanting to know about salvation.

"The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him."

And it was the searching and wanting to know that came first. Jesus told him how
Red high light is mine for discussion, I'll come back to those words later. You said:
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 07:23:03
Nicodemus was not regenerated (born again... yet) or Jesus would have answered him differently.
Rella you are so wrong~the very reason why Jesus answered him AND the reason why this discourse is recorded for us is to teach us that regeneration is by the Spirit of God apart from ALL MEANS, and our duty is to LOOK FOR SIGNS OF SPIRITUAL LIFE in a person. Nicodemus was far from being your typical Pharisees by the fact of his discourse with Jesus, and the Holy Ghost wants his children to see this is so. Please consider the following:
Quote from: John the apostle
John 3:1,2~"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him."
I'm not sure if there's a more important discourse recorded for us in all of the scriptures than the one recorded in John 3:1-21, especially so the first 12 verses.

I have heard ministers preach from these scriptures many times in the last almost fifty years, and few ever get close to what these scriptures are truly saying to us. Before we start, I want to make a few important points to consider as we go through these scriptures.

First~CONTEXT will drive our interpretation of these scriptures, NOT SOUND BITES.

Secondly, we must strive to understand these scriptures based on the CONTEXT, not what we have heard in the past, or what we have been taught to believe.

Thirdly, great men are not always wise and embrace truth, all men have a measure of error, even the very best of God's children~so we must not trust voices of the past ABOVE the voices of the holy men of God who wrote the scriptures for us to believe and to hold fast to.

"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night,"~A Pharisees named Nicodemus, whose spirit was much different than other Pharisees is very evident by his words to Jesus. As to why he came at night, we do not know and neither is it important to know, it changes nothing as to the discourse between Nicodemus and Jesus. What is important in the first two verses is that his spirit and his confession is worthy for us to take note of.

"Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him"~This confession of Nicodemus is a good of a confession as you will find in all of the word of God, and among us who believe. He said: we know~his confession was not one of doubt, but full confidence that Jesus was a true prophet sent from God. His spirit was one of humility and confidence~but as we shall see his knowledge was much to be desired. This Pharisee was NOT of the same spirit as most others were...

Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 12:24-32~"But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
"So, we KNOW from John 3:1,2 and other scriptures that Nicodemus had a DIFFERENT spirit than other Pharisees, one that made a childlike confession concerning Jesus being sent from God to teach the word of God. Staying with the CONTEXT which WILL drive our interpretation for us we shall see what Jesus said to this leader of the Pharisees.

Verse three of John 3..."Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"~later...
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 05:06:16 by RB »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #66 on: Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 08:59:29 »
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 3:3~"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God "
When our Lord uses the words: "Verily, Verily"~he wants his hearers to hear the importance of what shall follow the verily, verily~except a man be be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I ask every reader and hearers....are YOU hearing and see what the Saviour is saying to Nicodemus? if not, then you have the same problem (or worse) as Nicodemus had....UNDERSTANDING spiritual truths! You very well may be born of the Spirit, yet not taught by him concerning the new birth and SIGNS that proves the new birth!

Based on the confession of Nicodemus in verses 1,2~Jesus said these words back to him: "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. So, I ask....what is our Lord saying to Nicodemus? Very simple: "Nicodemus, NO MAN can SEE what you profess to believe EXCEPT they FIRST are BORN AGAIN! You say, to me~Red, Jesus did not say except he is born FIRST he can't see the kingdom of God (or truths pertaining to it)~okay, then pray to tell me the difference between the two sayings~"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God " and by adding FIRST to the sense of Jesus' words? That's exactly what Jesus meant by saying....Except a man be born again, he cannot see! All sincere and honest men and lovers of God's truth should agree.

So, if one is following this discourse it should be plain that Jesus was not exhorting Nicodemus to be born again, as though he could by only excising his free will as so many vainly teach.

It is very clear Jesus is saying Nicodemus, by the fact YOU SEE and confess to KNOW that my words and power convince you that NO man can do these things EXCEPT God be with him proves that SUCH A PERSON can ONLY know this by being born again!

Read the first three verses again and again until this becomes plain to you.  It makes what follows to easy to see and understand.

Later...RB

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #67 on: Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 09:40:56 »
When our Lord uses the words: "Verily, Verily"~he wants his hearers to hear the importance of what shall follow the verily, verily~except a man be be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I ask every reader and hearers....are YOU hearing and see what the Saviour is saying to Nicodemus?
You are using the word "see" in your question in precisely the same way Jesus used it in speaking with Nicodemus.  Neither one means see with eyes.  It means the  same thing as the word "enter" does in verse 5, only said a little differently.  As often as not the word "see" in the Scriptures is not in reference to the physical sensing of photons by the nerve endings feeding the brain.  Consider Moses in Deuteronomy 29: And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders. "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear (vv.2-4). knowing with the heart, seeing with the eyes and hearing with the ears in verse 4 is not about the physical sensory systems.  There are so many more verses in Scripture that uses this same verbal technique.
It is very clear Jesus is saying Nicodemus, by the fact YOU SEE and confess to KNOW that my words and power convince you that NO man can do these things EXCEPT God be with him proves that SUCH A PERSON can ONLY know this by being born again!
That doesn't even make sense.  It is seeing Jesus doing "these things" that convinces anyone that Jesus is who He says He is.  That is what convinces anyone that they are sinners and need to be saved from their sins.

That is the whole purpose of the gospel of John:

John 20:30  Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
John 20:31  but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.


It is not being born again that allows one to believe; rather it is in believing that one understands that he needs to be born again.
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 09:44:25 by 4WD »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #68 on: Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 13:33:52 »
You are using the word "see" in your question in precisely the same way Jesus used it in speaking with Nicodemus.  Neither one means see with eyes.  It means the  same thing as the word "enter" does in verse 5, only said a little differently.  As often as not the word "see" in the Scriptures is not in reference to the physical sensing of photons by the nerve endings feeding the brain.  Consider Moses in Deuteronomy 29: And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders. "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear (vv.2-4). knowing with the heart, seeing with the eyes and hearing with the ears in verse 4 is not about the physical sensory systems.  There are so many more verses in Scripture that uses this same verbal technique.
And I agree~it is speaking of seeing with the eyes of our understanding~per Ephesians 1:17,18....
Quote
"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"
You are somewhat confounding me as to WHY you are even mentioning this, it makes little sense to me. I know that it is not speaking about our physical sensing, but strictly spiritual seeing, and I used that to prove my point....again, why mentioned this, and how does this help your point?
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 09:40:56
That doesn't even make sense.  It is seeing Jesus doing "these things" that convince anyone that Jesus is who He says He is.  That is what convinces anyone that they are sinners and need to be saved from their sins.
Wrong~Unless one is FIRST quickened to spiritual life they do not have the power to see any spiritual truth~what may seem simple to you and I, are not so to those who have never been given life to see, as a matter of truth, they would think that they are wiser than us for NOT Believing! Read John Chapter nine, also:
Quote
John 12:37“But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:”
Apart from the quickening of God's Spirit, no man would believe.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:44~"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Our natural eyes (and ears) are powerless to cause us to come to Christ, apart from it be given to us to come.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 09:40:56
It is not being born again that allows one to believe; rather it is in believing that one understands that he needs to be born again.
You did not get that understanding from God but from a spirit that glories in man's ability to bring himself to God without God's Spirit being the only active person in the process of a person's spiritual birth.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:65~"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Again:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 16:13-17~"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. which is in heaven.
One more among hundreds that could be given:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 11:25-27~"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
You are rejecting Jesus' words, not mine, this should concern you deeply, and trust that it will.
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 13:38:43 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The “Walk”
« Reply #69 on: Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 14:36:31 »
Unless one is FIRST quickened to spiritual life they do not have the power to see any spiritual truth~
I absolutely reject that thinking.  Because that means for anyone who does not see spiritual truth, it is because God has not "quickened him to spiritual life"; that in turn means that the only thing that would be required for him to see spiritual truth is for God to quicken them; so that if he doesn't quicken them, the responsibility for not seeing spiritual truth is God's not theirs.  And that is completely unacceptable.