Author Topic: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture  (Read 798 times)

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Offline Netchaplain

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Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« on: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 08:22:05 »
With spiritual growth issues there can be varying beliefs, but only the doctrines that are settled in the “truth” will liberate you from disappointment (Jhn 8:32). Concerning the issue of receiving salvation, there can be no varying beliefs on the essentials of believing in the Lord Jesus’ expiation for our sins. Scripture is directly clear for ease of understanding the latter, but is not always so clear in the former, which answers to the various interpretations concerning spiritual growth issues.

Myself, I believe the difficulties with interpreting the growth truths (esp. the Pauline Epistles) are to allow us to exercise love to one another in the proper manner of patience with wanting to understand one another. After all, everything God does is to this end, to live in His love to Him and to one another (Jhn 13:35); and not as we love ourselves but as He loves us (Jhn 15:12). I believe those with the correct understanding of the growth truths will continue to grow and increasingly find less, if any, disappointments (we should never be disappointed); and those who struggle more than not in apprehending the growth truths will continue to encounter disappointments—but yet are retained in their salvation.

At face value, the spiritual growth truths of the NT of Scripture often appear contradictory (which of course is never actual), and answers to the reason why most Bible commentators utilize the method of “necessary inference” (which opponents call “new inference”) in order to maintain a unified agreement between scriptures. Some commentators use the method of Biblicism (literalism) but results with less success and accurate interpretation.

Example: “Whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die” (Jhn 11:26).
Apparent contradiction: “Every branch in Me that bears not fruit He takes away” (Jn 15:2).
Inference: Many if not most understand the phrase “in Me” to mean “believes in Me,” and understandably so considering the way it reads. But to avoid contradiction between these two passages it’s required to assume (infer) that “in Me” has the intention that “everyone who professes to believe in Me,” otherwise contradiction cannot be avoided.

John Gill – “There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him.”
https://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=gill&b=43&c=15

Example: “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith” (1Ti 4:1).
Inference: “some shall depart from the profession of the faith,” since God keeps those who truly are in the faith from leaving it (Phl 1:6).

John Gill – “that is, from the doctrine of faith, notwithstanding it is indisputably the great mystery of godliness, as it is called in the latter part of the preceding chapter; for from the true grace of faith there can be no final and total apostasy, such as is here designed; for that can never be lost. It is of an incorruptible nature, and therefore more precious than gold that perishes, and Christ is the author and finisher of it.”
https://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=gill&b=54&c=4

My reason for sharing this is only to be informative of some of the ways commentators reason the Scriptures. I do not expect most to be receptive of this information, but I believe some will benefit. Personally I believe the present lack of spiritual growth will continue until the translation of the Church, in which of course all will come to light.

God’s guidance to all who seek truth over self-justification, and God be blessed in the highest!

Offline DaveW

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #1 on: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 08:31:31 »
Please do not use Western logic on an Eastern text.  Not a good fit and can lead to all kinds of misunderstandings.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #2 on: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 08:40:55 »
Netchaplain, You try so hard and yet fail so completely to prove OSAS.  Using John Gill's Calvinist notions of "the elect" only digs the hole deeper.  John Gill doesn't teach that the one who believes becomes saved; rather he teaches that the one who is saved, i.e., the elect, becomes a believer.

Offline DaveW

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« Last Edit: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 11:10:10 by DaveW »

Offline RB

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #4 on: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 14:06:35 »
Quote from: Netchaplain Today at 08:22:05
Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
I had difficult truly following your point~I think I did somewhat, but not totally.
Quote from: Netchaplain Today at 08:22:05
Concerning the issue of receiving salvation, there can be no varying beliefs on the essentials of believing in the Lord Jesus’ expiation for our sins. Scripture is directly clear for ease of understanding the latter, but is not always so clear in the former, which answers to the various interpretations concerning spiritual growth issues.
But there are
Quote
there can be no varying beliefs on the essentials of believing in the Lord Jesus’ expiation for our sins.
Everyone in the professing churches of Christ believes that salvation is in Christ ALONE as far as him providing salvation from sin and condemnation~yet, the problem arises in how folks in the religion that profess that Jesus is the Christ IS how one are born again~OR, what does a sinner have to do before he is born again...does he have to have faith, or, faith, repentance, and be baptized; or, is one simple born of God and all these things FOLLOW, as they hear, etc.

Netchaplain, actually all truths are in the scriptures clearly written concerning both points that you mentioned, the problem lies with us, not so much how clearly truth is written. As long as this world stands GOOD MEN will disagree, and will never agree perfectly, NEVER. Let me add this, forget about the term "good men", but RIGHTEOUS men will disagree. Much more so when there a MIXED multitude among God's children then it makes it so much harder to teach the truth, for more truth that one has, so much more will that person seems to be them far off from THAT multitude~young babe in Christ get easily confused, and they can only receive the milk of the word and are unable to eat any meat.

John Gill was a faithful man of God and very learned~not so much in Eschatology, but on many other doctrines, he was far above most of us. You cannot go wrong by reading behind him. My friend 4WD does not like him, but that's okay, he does not like me sometimes. But, I still love him.  ::smile::



« Last Edit: Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 02:43:12 by RB »

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #4 on: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 14:06:35 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #5 on: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 14:30:10 »
John Gill was a faithful man of God and very learned~not so much in Eschatology, but on many other doctrines, he was far above most of us. You cannot go wrong by reading behind him. My friend 4WD does not like him, but that's okay, he does not like me sometimes. But, I still love him.  ::smile::
I have no doubt that John Gill, just like you, was a faithful man of God.  But he, just like you, was just wrong in so much of his soteriology.  I didn't know John Gill so I have no way of either liking him or not.  You, I know somewhat.  You I like; even love as a brother in Christ.  It is your soteriology, just like John Gill's, that I don't like.

Offline Netchaplain

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #6 on: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 15:37:10 »
Please do not use Western logic on an Eastern text.  Not a good fit and can lead to all kinds of misunderstandings.
Appreciate the concern!

Offline Netchaplain

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #7 on: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 16:00:19 »
Netchaplain, You try so hard and yet fail so completely to prove OSAS.  Using John Gill's Calvinist notions of "the elect" only digs the hole deeper.  John Gill doesn't teach that the one who believes becomes saved; rather he teaches that the one who is saved, i.e., the elect, becomes a believer.
I believe you're a Christian too and appreciate your posts, and the differences in our understanding cannot hinder us walking in God's love for one another, which, after all is the prime objective to loving God (1Jn 4:20).

Offline soterion

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #8 on: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 16:46:20 »
Everybody who reads and studies the word of God, and shares the results of study with others, believes he or she is reasoning from the scriptures, and that those who disagree with any particular conclusion are wresting with the scriptures.

So, what else is new?  ::shrug::

Offline Netchaplain

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #9 on: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 17:12:57 »
Everybody who reads and studies the word of God, and shares the results of study with others, believes he or she is reasoning from the scriptures, and that those who disagree with any particular conclusion are wresting with the scriptures.

So, what else is new?  ::shrug::
I know what you mean, and those who do not find truth is because they are not seeking it.

Offline soterion

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #10 on: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 17:24:45 »
I know what you mean, and those who do not find truth is because they are not seeking it.

You completely missed the point.

Of course when a person is studying, he or she is seeking the truth. Unless we are talking about some Jim Jones or other nut like that, then the search for truth should be assumed. All of us here believe we have arrived at "the truth" on this or that topic, yet we disagree to a great extent in our sharing.

All you did in your quote above is accuse some here of not really searching for the truth.  ::frown::

Offline Netchaplain

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #11 on: Wed Aug 12, 2020 - 19:19:59 »
You completely missed the point.

Of course when a person is studying, he or she is seeking the truth. Unless we are talking about some Jim Jones or other nut like that, then the search for truth should be assumed. All of us here believe we have arrived at "the truth" on this or that topic, yet we disagree to a great extent in our sharing.

All you did in your quote above is accuse some here of not really searching for the truth.
Was merely stating a general truth addressing your comment about thinking everyone believes they have the truth on a certain issue. I never intend to be accusatory on any issue and don't understand why you would want to accuse me of it. 

Offline RB

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #12 on: Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 02:47:23 »
Please do not use Western logic on an Eastern text.
Dave, I meant to ask you yesterday what you meant by this statement~I still do not know. I can only surmise what you mean, but rather for you do tell me, so I would know exactly what you meant. Western logic on an Eastern text......Western logic on an Eastern text........Western logic on an Eastern text...... ::pondering::

Offline soterion

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #13 on: Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 07:24:50 »
Was merely stating a general truth addressing your comment about thinking everyone believes they have the truth on a certain issue. I never intend to be accusatory on any issue and don't understand why you would want to accuse me of it.

Your "general truth" is accusatory.

You don't understand such concepts as implication and inference, do you? You said: those who do not find truth is because they are not seeking it.

Let's put that to the test: I 100% disagree with you on the concept of OSAS. I believe a person can so stray from the grace and salvation of the Lord as to end up lost and condemned. There are way too many scriptures which easily teach it to be true.

Why have I come to this conclusion after years of study?

Offline DaveW

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #14 on: Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 09:22:49 »
Dave, I meant to ask you yesterday what you meant by this statement~I still do not know. I can only surmise what you mean, but rather for you do tell me, so I would know exactly what you meant. Western logic on an Eastern text......Western logic on an Eastern text........Western logic on an Eastern text...... ::pondering::
Things written by western thinkers usually use Aristotle's linear type of logic which is the basis for math and the "scientific method."  But it is NOT the logic ov the bible which is more eastern in thought and understanding.  Western thought is abstract, (taking things apart) the bible is relational.  (putting things together)

In another thread I gave a few links describing Hebrew Block (Adductive) logic. 

Offline Netchaplain

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #15 on: Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 10:12:30 »
Your "general truth" is accusatory.

You don't understand such concepts as implication and inference, do you? You said: those who do not find truth is because they are not seeking it.
It appears you that you don't believe me, but the truth of the matter is as I've said from the beginning, that I was pointing out a general doctrine Christ declared. "Seek and ye shall find," and there's no good reason to suspect I wanted to be negative about you or anyone. This is a doctrine that is encouraging to know that we eventually find the truth (even "in all things" as we continue to search it out - 2Tim 2:7); and is why we are to always seek to contemplate on what is "true" (Phl 4:8).

Let's put that to the test: I 100% disagree with you on the concept of OSAS. I believe a person can so stray from the grace and salvation of the Lord as to end up lost and condemned. There are way too many scriptures which easily teach it to be true.

Why have I come to this conclusion after years of study?
If I replied here it would not seem as we are kindly discussing truth, but rather arguing to see who's correct. I will always desire to communicate with you, but not in this way.

Not to accuse anyone of anything, but to encourage all concerning everything, the more we seek to walk in God's love to one another in everything, the more we come to understand and increase our faith, because "faith works by love" (Gal 5:6).

Offline 4WD

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #16 on: Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 12:17:47 »
If I replied here it would not seem as we are kindly discussing truth, but rather arguing to see who's correct.
Please explain what you think is the difference.  How does one get to the truth when there are differing opinions and only one of the opinions is truth?

Offline DaveW

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #17 on: Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 12:31:03 »
Please explain what you think is the difference.  How does one get to the truth when there are differing opinions and only one of the opinions is truth?
That is an example of western linear logic.  Eastern Hebraic logic can hold differing positions as equally true even if they conflict with each other.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #18 on: Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 14:14:56 »
That is an example of western linear logic.  Eastern Hebraic logic can hold differing positions as equally true even if they conflict with each other.
Well then according you your Eastern Hebraic logic, who could really know or care what true even means?

Offline Netchaplain

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #19 on: Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 17:13:26 »
I had difficulty truly following your point~I think I did somewhat, but not totally.
Really like your replies and comments, and much I agree with. Sorry for the late reply, I allowed myself to get too preoccupied with other issues and forgot to come back to this posting. To begin with, by "your point" do you mean generally the entire article or a specific issue? The article itself is my desire to make available what I think may be useful as pertaining to some of the commentators methods.

the problem arises in how folks in the religion that profess that Jesus is the Christ IS how one are born again~OR, what does a sinner have to do before he is born again...does he have to have faith, or repentance, and be baptized; or, is one simple born of God and all these things FOLLOW, as they hear, etc.
I think believers grow in their understanding of the Word (which never ceases to increase) only according to how familiar they are with it, and the greater the familiarity, the more the Spirit teaches us to identify with what is truth (it also becomes easier to spot something that's not in the Word).

I believe the fundamentals of doctrinal truth in the Word have not been sufficiently taught within the last century or so, thus the last few generations have been exposed to other teachings in its place, which I think answers to the increasing confusion among Bible Christians, and is most obvious on the internet. When there are many misunderstandings about something basic as being born again, there can only be confusion within the entirety of spiritual growth truths, because rebirth is the primary basis of all the growth truths. I found the best learning practice is to continue rereading and researching the NT with at least one commentator you agree with the most, esp. concerning the Pauline Epistles (all 13).

actually all truths are in the scriptures clearly written concerning both points that you mentioned, the problem lies with us, not so much how clearly truth is written.
I agree the majority of insufficient understanding of the Word is the biggest hindrance to our learning, which I believe is due to a low level of Word-familiarity. But its evident that even those with much familiarity (commentators) have a certain degree of disagreement with quit a few growth passages when interpreting, and I believe it's to cause them, and us, to continue to study and seek God for its truths. Thankfully the essentials of the Gospel of Christ for salvation are unmistakable and unavoidably clear!

John Gill was a faithful man of God and very learned~not so much in Eschatology, but on many other doctrines, he was far above most of us. You cannot go wrong by reading behind him. My friend 4WD does not like him, but that's okay, he does not like me sometimes. But, I still love him. 
I agree, Gill's eschatology seems to contain certain elements of preterism, but eschatology probably varies between theologians more than any other subject, as it too is not salvation-essential but spiritual growth related. My reason for mostly using the classics like John Gill, and occasionally Albert Barnes (was 1 century later), and a couple contemporary commentators (Geneva and others alike) is because they were in a time that contained much less distraction of numerous false teachings of recent decades.

Offline Netchaplain

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #20 on: Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 17:19:54 »
Please explain what you think is the difference.
Unless you're referring to something else, I would say that the truths of Scripture have a higher potential of learning in an atmosphere of respect and kindness.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #21 on: Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 18:30:43 »
So then kindly discussing is good, arguing is bad?  Cannot arguing be simply discussing from opposite sides of an issue?  It seems that you simply do not like to be confronted in your views of biblical things.  If someone says that Jesus was not the divine Son of God, do you not want to confront, argue, that view to get at the truth?

Seriously, I still do not know what you are trying get to.

Offline Netchaplain

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #22 on: Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 20:41:08 »
So then kindly discussing is good, arguing is bad? 
Arguing is okay, it's more what the arguing would have been about, which was "to see who was correct," instead of seeing what is correct. The difference here is that the issue is at the center and not the individual, thereby keeping it from being personal, e.g."It seems that you simply do not like to be confronted in your views of biblical things." (we should keep personal judgments to ourselves)


Offline DaveW

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #23 on: Fri Aug 14, 2020 - 05:13:14 »
Well then according you your Eastern Hebraic logic, who could really know or care what true even means?
Good question. 

It means we have to rely on the leading of the Lord in each situation.  We have to have a 2 way relationship and communication.

Adductive logic is also known as Hebraic block logic.  While conflicting concepts may both be true, it usually happens in different "blocks."

Offline DaveW

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #24 on: Fri Aug 14, 2020 - 05:22:57 »
Arguing is okay, it's more what the arguing would have been about, which was "to see who was correct," instead of seeing what is correct. The difference here is that the issue is at the center and not the individual, thereby keeping it from being personal, e.g."It seems that you simply do not like to be confronted in your views of biblical things." (we should keep personal judgments to ourselves)

Both our Lord and Paul said for us to be "one." But we have a cultural understanding of what that looks like that does NOT necessarily line up with the cultural understanding of first century Judea.

I would give as example 2 notable rabbis from the first century BC:  Shammai and Hillel.  Both were very intelligent and prime OT scholars. They famously disagreed on over 100 points of doctrine (which were recorded).  They were also the best of friends; even to the point when they started their 2 schools training Pharisees, they insisted their graduates marry daughters of graduates of the OTHER school.  Even in modern Israel you can have 2 old rabbis yelling and screaming at each other, so close together their beards are touching.  What you don't see is after all that, they walk off and have coffee together, good friends.  they do not let their different understandings get in the way of their relating as "brothers."

In Ephesians 4:3, 4:13  Paul tells us to "maintain the unity of the spirit ... until we attain the unity of the faith."

Offline 4WD

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #25 on: Fri Aug 14, 2020 - 06:43:23 »
Good question. 

It means we have to rely on the leading of the Lord in each situation.  We have to have a 2 way relationship and communication.

Adductive logic is also known as Hebraic block logic.  While conflicting concepts may both be true, it usually happens in different "blocks."
I think that you meant abductive not adductive.  But neither has any place in discovering the truth and meaning in God's word. The leading of the Lord is given in His special revelation, i.e., the Scriptures.  I tend to reject most of what others think they are hearing in that 2 way communication; because it is so often wrong. 

Offline DaveW

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #26 on: Fri Aug 14, 2020 - 06:52:00 »
No - it is adductive with a D not a B.

https://books.google.com/books?id=L-wI8OGpvTUC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=adductive+logic&source=bl&ots=VhVhFLJrl7&sig=R7UfqoH4cgeggsbpgG7KGT0EpmQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDAQ6AEwA2oVChMIvsi0mOT7xwIVh4I-Ch0Z6Q7G#v=onepage&q=adductive%20logic&f=false

Your rejection is a violation of scripture no matter WHAT logic framework you use.

Hebrews 3:7
Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, “Today if you hear His voice,  8  Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,

Scripture EXPECTS you to be listening to HIS voice, and to not hear it or to hear it and not obey is "hardening your heart."

Offline 4WD

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #27 on: Fri Aug 14, 2020 - 07:50:27 »
I didn't say I wasn't listening.  I said:
I tend to reject most of what others think they are hearing in that 2 way communication; because it is so often wrong.

Offline Netchaplain

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Re: Wresting or Reasoning Scripture
« Reply #28 on: Fri Aug 14, 2020 - 15:23:11 »
Both our Lord and Paul said for us to be "one." But we have a cultural understanding of what that looks like that does NOT necessarily line up with the cultural understanding of first century Judea.

I would give as example 2 notable rabbis from the first century BC:  Shammai and Hillel.  Both were very intelligent and prime OT scholars. They famously disagreed on over 100 points of doctrine (which were recorded).  They were also the best of friends; even to the point when they started their 2 schools training Pharisees, they insisted their graduates marry daughters of graduates of the OTHER school.  Even in modern Israel you can have 2 old rabbis yelling and screaming at each other, so close together their beards are touching.  What you don't see is after all that, they walk off and have coffee together, good friends.  they do not let their different understandings get in the way of their relating as "brothers."

In Ephesians 4:3, 4:13  Paul tells us to "maintain the unity of the spirit ... until we attain the unity of the faith."
Hi and appreciate your input! Yes, actually the definition of "argue" doesn't contain any negativity, such as discussing out of disrespect, unkindness, anger, etc.