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Author Topic: Calvinism or Arminianism  (Read 6196 times)
pawnraider
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« on: December 19, 2007, 08:55:33 AM »

Which is right, Calvinism or Arminianism?  Confused
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Jaime
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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2007, 08:58:53 AM »

Probably neither.

God is sovereign, but man has free will.
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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2007, 08:58:53 AM »

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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2007, 09:02:46 AM »

Probably neither.

God is sovereign, but man has free will.
Yup.
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charlie
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2007, 09:32:47 AM »

Does anybody know if Arminianism has a handy acrostic like TULIP? And if not, does it least have a list of basic tenets?
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Tantor
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2007, 10:14:22 AM »

Probably neither.

God is sovereign, but man has free will.
Yup.

If man has free will.. and the bible teaches that darkness hides from the light, then even with free will it would be impossible for man to 'chose' God without God's intervention first.

It's funny that this has become a polarizing issue.. people think you either have free will or you don't.  I subscribe to the position that it is somewhere in the middle.  Within our own context we may feel we have free will, but within God's context he guides us where he wants us to go.

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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2007, 10:21:38 AM »

Probably neither.

God is sovereign, but man has free will.
Yup.

If man has free will.. and the bible teaches that darkness hides from the light, then even with free will it would be impossible for man to 'chose' God without God's intervention first.

It's funny that this has become a polarizing issue.. people think you either have free will or you don't.  I subscribe to the position that it is somewhere in the middle.  Within our own context we may feel we have free will, but within God's context he guides us where he wants us to go.


Yes it is somewhere in the middle.  Clapping up high
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2007, 10:21:38 AM »

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« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2007, 10:42:33 AM »

Does anybody know if Arminianism has a handy acrostic like TULIP? And if not, does it least have a list of basic tenets?

Strangely, the original tenets of Arminianism are closer to "Calvinism" than what a lot of people realize...

Check this out (I know, I know... take it with a Wikipedia grain of salt): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

Quote
Arminianism holds to the following tenets:

Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation
Salvation is possible by grace alone
Works of human effort cannot cause or contribute to salvation
God's election is conditional on faith in Jesus
Jesus' atonement was for all people
God allows his grace to be resisted by those unwilling to believe
Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith

The only main difference is whether election is conditional or unconditional.  Calvinists seem to believe that God chooses you based on nothing about you... faith or otherwise (you only have faith because you were chosen to be saved first).  And, according to Arminiamism, it seems that salvation can be lost if faith is lost.

Yet, original Arminians seem to agree with Calvinists on total depravity, etc.  But, grace can be resisted... depending again on faith.

Off the cuff response.  Someone else might explain better.
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da525382
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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2007, 12:32:01 PM »

Here's one of many sources, it is a reformed source, summarizing how the two compare:

                         http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html

The five tenets of Calvinism were established after the five tenets of Arminianism were created.  The followers of Calvin established TULIP after his death in response to the Armianian tenets.

A better question to ask, ISTM, is which belief generally, if not in its purest form, aligns more closely with scripture.  I, of course, being in a minuscule minority here, believe Calvinism does.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 12:49:31 PM by da525382 » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2007, 01:30:37 PM »

Does anybody know if Arminianism has a handy acrostic like TULIP? And if not, does it least have a list of basic tenets?

Strangely, the original tenets of Arminianism are closer to "Calvinism" than what a lot of people realize...

Check this out (I know, I know... take it with a Wikipedia grain of salt): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

Quote
Arminianism holds to the following tenets:

Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation
Salvation is possible by grace alone
Works of human effort cannot cause or contribute to salvation
God's election is conditional on faith in Jesus
Jesus' atonement was for all people
God allows his grace to be resisted by those unwilling to believe
Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith

The only main difference is whether election is conditional or unconditional.  Calvinists seem to believe that God chooses you based on nothing about you... faith or otherwise (you only have faith because you were chosen to be saved first).  And, according to Arminiamism, it seems that salvation can be lost if faith is lost.

Yet, original Arminians seem to agree with Calvinists on total depravity, etc.  But, grace can be resisted... depending again on faith.

Off the cuff response.  Someone else might explain better.
Nice information here.

In particular, I'm apt to agree with the Arminian position cited above:

Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2007, 01:41:07 PM »

Calminian is much closer.

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« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 01:12:39 PM by Harold » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2007, 01:41:07 PM »

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charlie
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« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2007, 08:07:31 PM »

Does anybody know if Arminianism has a handy acrostic like TULIP? And if not, does it least have a list of basic tenets?

Strangely, the original tenets of Arminianism are closer to "Calvinism" than what a lot of people realize...

Check this out (I know, I know... take it with a Wikipedia grain of salt): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

Quote
Arminianism holds to the following tenets:

Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation
Salvation is possible by grace alone
Works of human effort cannot cause or contribute to salvation
God's election is conditional on faith in Jesus
Jesus' atonement was for all people
God allows his grace to be resisted by those unwilling to believe
Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith

The only main difference is whether election is conditional or unconditional.  Calvinists seem to believe that God chooses you based on nothing about you... faith or otherwise (you only have faith because you were chosen to be saved first).  And, according to Arminiamism, it seems that salvation can be lost if faith is lost.

Yet, original Arminians seem to agree with Calvinists on total depravity, etc.  But, grace can be resisted... depending again on faith.

Off the cuff response.  Someone else might explain better.

Awesome! Thanks for the free education. I had always assumed that Arminius was to Calvin what Pelagius was to Augustine. Come to find out, compared to the second pair, the first pair are very close.

I just read that Jacob Arminius was born in 1560. I had no idea he came along so late. Apparently he had tried to reform Reform Theology.
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« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2007, 08:42:16 PM »

I have studied Cal and Armin for several years, and both sides have problems. If you go back to the original beliefs of the first and second generation of Christians, their end-times perspective was pre-millennial. But Augustine put a the kibosh on that and the church for 1600 years was dominated by millennial (no literal earthly millennium) ideas.
If one starts with a literal future 1000 year Messianic Kingdom, and takes the references to the kingdom of God/kingdom of Heaven to be a literal Messianic Kingdom, and not everlasting bliss in the clouds with God, you might see that most of the warnings against gross sins are about born-again people losing out on participation in the next part of God's program, the seventh-day rest, the Kingdom of Christ.
If this is a correct understanding, I would agree with Cal. that true believers are secure in their salvation, but they may lose their psuche-life for the duration of the coming age. Only those who persevere will receive the double inheritance of the first-born son, life in the Millennium reigning with Christ, and the common salvation of the eternal ages for all who have received Christ.
If general (spirit) salvation (from the lake of fire) is solely by grace through faith, then election can be based on God's foreknowledge of our faith in his Son. And since faith is non-meritorious, and good works are neither required for salvation nor a necessary consequence of being born-again (can I get an Amen from the thief on the cross?), election in time can be compatible with man's free will.
As for Total Depravity, our spirit, soul and body were all affected by the fall.
Election to salvation (of our spirit) in Christ is based on foreseen faith, and is not unconditional.
The Atonement had adequate provision for all, but is only effective on the repentant soul.
Grace is resistable.
All who receive Christ are saved to the uttermost and are saved from the lake of fire. Saints who persevere in doing good will be rewarded with rulership (inheritance) in the coming kingdom. (Rom 2:2-11) Those saved who are disobedient will be shut out in the darkness that is outside until the kingdom is given back to the Father. (Matt. various)

Salvation is a free gift received by faith. Life in the Kingdom of Christ is a reward for obedience after faith.
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Sherman Nobles
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« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2007, 09:21:11 PM »

Calvanism illustrated:
Fore Ordination of God -------> Man's Salvation -------> Man's Response of Faith

Armenianism illustrated:
Fore Knowledge of God -------> Man's Response of Faith -------> Man's Salvation

I believe that the problem is we are thinking linear/temporal, whereas God exists in a different dimmension non-linear/eternal.  I'll try to illustrate this as follows in a triangle:

                           Man's Salvation
                                   /\
                                 /    \
                               /        \
                             /            \
                           /                \
Fore Knowledge <--------------> Man's Response
Fore Ordination                               of Faith
   of God

Note that the arrows go both ways at the same time.  I'm no electrician, but apparently Alternating Current flows both ways at the same time.  I don't understand how that is possible, but I know that if I turn the light switch on, I don't sit in darkness and I see the light.  In like manner, when I responded in faith to the Gospel the lights came on in my heart and I was born of the Spirit! I don't understand salvation or how it works, but I thank Jesus that he died for me before the foundation of the world.
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« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2007, 09:21:11 PM »

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da525382
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« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2007, 09:57:33 PM »

Hey, that's cool, Sherman! 
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2007, 12:57:13 AM »

Does anybody know if Arminianism has a handy acrostic like TULIP? And if not, does it least have a list of basic tenets?

Arminianism is the exact opposite of Calvinism.  Take Tulip and go to the other end of the spectrum and you have Arminianism.

I personally believe both are about half right.  :)

In Christ,
KP
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