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JERRY C
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« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2007, 12:20:12 PM »
da525382, you ask which is who --
dear brother, I should think that is obvious!
Chewie and I are cousins, by the way; but, he is a Catholic.

so, is that tag a zipcode or inmate#?

I really do not intend to make light of this post; but I do despise elitism and gnosticism.

one of my dad's favorite verses was Dt.29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.

another one is Job11:
7"Can you fathom the mysteries of God?
       Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
 8 They are higher than the heavens—what can you do?
       They are deeper than the depths of the grave —what can you know?
 9 Their measure is longer than the earth
       and wider than the sea.

I try to take my picture of God from the life of Jesus, as much as possible.
I do like to read theology, but it gets tedious, speculative, semantical, dubious.
Someone has already made that point in this string about definitions and terms.

We got it wrong the 1st time he came; we will likely repeat history.

But, let's strive know him; "beyond the sacred page, I seek thee, Lord..."
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JERRY C
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« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2007, 12:25:09 PM »
Quote from: charlie on December 20, 2007, 11:57:54 AM
Quote from: da525382 on December 20, 2007, 11:40:12 AM
(1) If scripture truly taught God's grace is conditional, then it is no longer grace. 
                    His grace is His and it is not conditioned on anything.
 

I don't know if anybody hit on this already, but I would like to challenge the notion quoted above. It is often said that, since we are saved by grace, then God does everything pertaining to salvation and we contribute nothing because, after all, if we contribute anything to our own salvation, then it is not grace.

If I'm selling my car and the price is $10k and you want to buy it, you really like it, you really need it, and you don't have the money, and I sell it to you for $1 (by the way, I did that once), am I not being gracious? If you told your friends about it, how many of them would correct you and say I was not being gracious, but generous, because if I had been gracious, I would have given it to you for free.

And please, let's not bring baptism or confession into this. I'm not talking about form of proclamation. In fact, God requires much more from us than that in order to accept his gracious gift. He requires no less than a changed life and complete devotion. As soon as you start quibbling about just how much change will suffice, you've already missed the mark. Like any good Lexus salesman will tell you, if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Bonhoeffer would agree with me.

And of course, we agree to disagree.   I do not see scripture paralleling God's salvation of us with a car salesman, I'm sorry.  It all depends, I guess, on whether the gracious gift of God, our salvation, is seen as that, or is seen as a contract to enter with man, conditioned on the parameters of the contract man must perform.   That's really about it in a nutshell.  I fully realize Christians out there are on a spectrum of belief, perhaps with "pure gift" at one end and "pure contract" at the other end.  I just do not see scripture in any way proclaiming anything other than God's gracious gift of salvation, it is His possessory interest alone, and it is His gracious Will that has provided that to his elect by His own desire and purpose, and to His own glory, even since before the beginning of time.
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« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2007, 12:25:09 PM »
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JERRY C
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« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2007, 12:31:48 PM »
one comment before I get back to work --

D# commented,
His gracious Will that has provided that to his elect by His own disire and purpose

is He willing that any should perish?
if not, then how is this resisted?
if He wills all to be saved, then how are they not elect, predestined, ...

is predestination concerning individuals or a group?

later.
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ο θεος ιλασθητι μοι τω αμαρτωλω

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JERRY C
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« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2007, 01:26:20 PM »
Quote from: Sherman Nobles on December 19, 2007, 09:21:11 PM
Calvanism illustrated:
Fore Ordination of God -------> Man's Salvation -------> Man's Response of Faith

Armenianism illustrated:
Fore Knowledge of God -------> Man's Response of Faith -------> Man's Salvation

I believe that the problem is we are thinking linear/temporal, whereas God exists in a different dimmension non-linear/eternal.  I'll try to illustrate this as follows in a triangle:

                           Man's Salvation
                                   /\
                                 /    \
                               /        \
                             /            \
                           /                \
Fore Knowledge <--------------> Man's Response
Fore Ordination                               of Faith
   of God

Note that the arrows go both ways at the same time.  I'm no electrician, but apparently Alternating Current flows both ways at the same time.  I don't understand how that is possible, but I know that if I turn the light switch on, I don't sit in darkness and I see the light.  In like manner, when I responded in faith to the Gospel the lights came on in my heart and I was born of the Spirit! I don't understand salvation or how it works, but I thank Jesus that he died for me before the foundation of the world.

Just so you know, Alternating electricity alternates from negative to positive in a linear motion called a sine-wave.

Gods comes to us, someone tells the Good News, we hear and BELIEVE, I believe God's salvation message, through faith in this message I am saved. I am not trying to fill in all the blanks, the point is, Paul states in Romans how one hears and receives the message.

Do you believe with all your heart?

For the Cals, does God believe for you?

FTL
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Rom 1:17  For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (NIV)

I neither agree nor disagree with any thing posted on the board, I am interjecting thoughts not my beliefs, unless so stated.
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« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2007, 01:54:43 PM »
Quote from: da525382 on December 20, 2007, 12:25:09 PM
Quote from: charlie on December 20, 2007, 11:57:54 AM
Quote from: da525382 on December 20, 2007, 11:40:12 AM
(1) If scripture truly taught God's grace is conditional, then it is no longer grace. 
                    His grace is His and it is not conditioned on anything.
 

I don't know if anybody hit on this already, but I would like to challenge the notion quoted above. It is often said that, since we are saved by grace, then God does everything pertaining to salvation and we contribute nothing because, after all, if we contribute anything to our own salvation, then it is not grace.

If I'm selling my car and the price is $10k and you want to buy it, you really like it, you really need it, and you don't have the money, and I sell it to you for $1 (by the way, I did that once), am I not being gracious? If you told your friends about it, how many of them would correct you and say I was not being gracious, but generous, because if I had been gracious, I would have given it to you for free.

And please, let's not bring baptism or confession into this. I'm not talking about form of proclamation. In fact, God requires much more from us than that in order to accept his gracious gift. He requires no less than a changed life and complete devotion. As soon as you start quibbling about just how much change will suffice, you've already missed the mark. Like any good Lexus salesman will tell you, if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Bonhoeffer would agree with me.

And of course, we agree to disagree.   I do not see scripture paralleling God's salvation of us with a car salesman, I'm sorry.  It all depends, I guess, on whether the gracious gift of God, our salvation, is seen as that, or is seen as a contract to enter with man, conditioned on the parameters of the contract man must perform.   That's really about it in a nutshell.  I fully realize Christians out there are on a spectrum of belief, perhaps with "pure gift" at one end and "pure contract" at the other end.  I just do not see scripture in any way proclaiming anything other than God's gracious gift of salvation, it is His possessory interest alone, and it is His gracious Will that has provided that to his elect by His own desire and purpose, and to His own glory, even since before the beginning of time.

And all I'm saying is that, just because justification may be cooperative (synergistic, rather than monergistic) doesn't mean it's not grace.

The more I read, the more that Reform theology seems to me to be an overreaction to medieval Catholicism. Arminianism seems to have been an attempted check on the extremes of Calvin's followers (supralapsarianism ala Theodore Beza). I'm wondering if even Calvin would have been a Calvinist. He never even mentioned Unconditional Election.
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da525382
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« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2007, 03:27:27 PM »
Quote from: charlie on December 20, 2007, 01:54:43 PM
Quote from: da525382 on December 20, 2007, 12:25:09 PM
Quote from: charlie on December 20, 2007, 11:57:54 AM
Quote from: da525382 on December 20, 2007, 11:40:12 AM
(1) If scripture truly taught God's grace is conditional, then it is no longer grace. 
                    His grace is His and it is not conditioned on anything.
 

I don't know if anybody hit on this already, but I would like to challenge the notion quoted above. It is often said that, since we are saved by grace, then God does everything pertaining to salvation and we contribute nothing because, after all, if we contribute anything to our own salvation, then it is not grace.

If I'm selling my car and the price is $10k and you want to buy it, you really like it, you really need it, and you don't have the money, and I sell it to you for $1 (by the way, I did that once), am I not being gracious? If you told your friends about it, how many of them would correct you and say I was not being gracious, but generous, because if I had been gracious, I would have given it to you for free.

And please, let's not bring baptism or confession into this. I'm not talking about form of proclamation. In fact, God requires much more from us than that in order to accept his gracious gift. He requires no less than a changed life and complete devotion. As soon as you start quibbling about just how much change will suffice, you've already missed the mark. Like any good Lexus salesman will tell you, if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Bonhoeffer would agree with me.

And of course, we agree to disagree.   I do not see scripture paralleling God's salvation of us with a car salesman, I'm sorry.  It all depends, I guess, on whether the gracious gift of God, our salvation, is seen as that, or is seen as a contract to enter with man, conditioned on the parameters of the contract man must perform.   That's really about it in a nutshell.  I fully realize Christians out there are on a spectrum of belief, perhaps with "pure gift" at one end and "pure contract" at the other end.  I just do not see scripture in any way proclaiming anything other than God's gracious gift of salvation, it is His possessory interest alone, and it is His gracious Will that has provided that to his elect by His own desire and purpose, and to His own glory, even since before the beginning of time.

And all I'm saying is that, just because justification may be cooperative (synergistic, rather than monergistic) doesn't mean it's not grace.

The more I read, the more that Reform theology seems to me to be an overreaction to medieval Catholicism. Arminianism seems to have been an attempted check on the extremes of Calvin's followers (supralapsarianism ala Theodore Beza). I'm wondering if even Calvin would have been a Calvinist. He never even mentioned Unconditional Election.

Calvin never even mentioned TULIP, it was constructed after his death in response to the five Arminian tenets.   Whether he designated it Unconditiional Election or not does not contradict the concept itself.  Many theological concepts are designated differently by different individuals and groups of individuals as history passes by.

And I am very glad for what you call the "overreaction" of the reformationists to "medieval" catholicism....it was much more than that, I think.....of primacy in my mind is its return to the foundations of Christianity via scripture.

You are very much entitled to believe the grace of God manifests in a synergystic cooperation with man.  Much of Christiandom does, much of it however, does not.
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« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2007, 03:27:27 PM »
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JERRY C
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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2007, 05:48:45 PM »
in light of the "gracious-generous" dichotomy comments made earlier, let me share a quote I ran across today --

Having saved every penny to make the journey, they are intent to fight all odds to complete the rituals. Ali, a farmer from Egypt's impoverished Fayoum province, said he saved for four years to make the trip ... "The hardship is worth it because we are carrying out a duty toward God," Ashraf said. ...His father said that, once back in Egypt, he will have to start from scratch because he has no money left. But it's worth it, he said. ... "Look how we are sitting here in the heat of the sun. But we are happy," she said, rubbing her knees. "The hardship is worth it because we are carrying out a duty toward God," Ashraf said.  ..."Hajj's reward is heaven," he said. "God is generous."

god is generous

is anyone here really saying anything like this?!
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ο θεος ιλασθητι μοι τω αμαρτωλω

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JERRY C
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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2007, 06:04:02 PM »
Doctrine does not matter.
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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2007, 08:16:11 PM »
Quote from: zoonance on December 20, 2007, 06:04:02 PM
Doctrine does not matter.
...as long as I'm right.   Mobbed
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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2007, 09:10:17 PM »
Quote from: zoonance on December 20, 2007, 06:04:02 PM
Doctrine does not matter.

Zoonance, that surprises me coming from you. 
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He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; like one from whom men hide their face; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.  Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.  But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.
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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2007, 09:10:17 PM »
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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2007, 09:10:51 PM »
Quote from: zoonance on December 20, 2007, 06:04:02 PM
Doctrine does not matter.

You left off the word "Your" at the beginning of the sentence.  Geek
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« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2007, 09:39:33 PM »
Jerry I didn't know the narrow gates were so wide.  Confused

Quote
2Pet.3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any (*) should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Who is the "us" Jerry? (wink) Speaking of longsuffering...

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory.

Paul presupposes your arguements in the same chapter. And answers them.

II. "BUT ELECTION ISN'T FAIR!"

Some years ago I was at a weekend retreat with a group of university students. During a discussion period someone raised the subject of predestination and election. One girl asked, "Where does the Bible clearly teach that God sovereignly chooses some people to be saved?" I asked her to read Romans nine out loud. She paused a second with a surprised look on her face as she slowly read "before they were born or had done good or evil." When she got to 9:13 and read, "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated," she stopped and said, "But that's not fair." I asked her to read the next verse. The King James Version says, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." She had a modern speech translation and it said, "You will object and say, 'but that's not fair.'" The surprised girl blurted out, "That's what I just said."

Now listen very carefully. If you object to election on the grounds that you think it is unfair, you are using an objection that has already been used and answered in the Scripture. The moment you say, "Election is unfair," you are admitting that you disagree with Paul's teaching in Romans 9:11-13 because that is the very objection he is presupposing his opponents will make. In his answer Paul does not back up or soften his statement. He declares that God has every right to show mercy to whomever he chooses.

The young lady continued to read Romans nine. She read verse 18, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." She literally gasped, "Then man cannot be held responsible. He is only a robot." Again I asked her to read the next verse. The King James says, "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" The young lady's modern speech translation read, "You will say to me, 'Then man cannot be held responsible. He is only a robot.'" The poor girl said, "I did it again!" Let me repeat what I just said. If you object to election on the grounds that you think it makes man a robot, you are using an objection that has already been used and answered in the Scripture. The moment you say, "Election means man cannot be held responsible," you are admitting that you disagree with Paul's teaching in Romans 9:18. Again, we see that Paul did not soften his statement. He declares that the Potter has the sovereign right to fashion, as he chooses, the lump of clay which is sinful man.

Both of the above objections forget the fall of Adam and the doctrine of depravity. They treat sinners as if God created them sinful instead of remembering that we all chose, in Adam, to sin...."

http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace/reisingerelection.html
 
That was a good picture of me though.

Dave
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"If God does not save men by truth, he certainly will not save them by lies. And if the old gospel is not competent to work a revival, then we will do without the revival." (CHS)
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« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2007, 11:41:44 PM »
For purposes of this thread, I put together a comparison of Calvinism, Arminianism and Scripture:

http://www.uebelecentral.com/arcalbible.htm

I hope you find it useful.

In Christ,
KP
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« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2007, 11:41:44 PM »
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charlie
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« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2007, 06:30:02 AM »
Quote from: da525382 on December 20, 2007, 03:27:27 PM
You are very much entitled to believe the grace of God manifests in a synergystic cooperation with man.  Much of Christiandom does, much of it however, does not.
Well MOST of Christendom is Roman Catholic, so where does that leave us? I one time had a fellow try to shut me down in a religious discussion on homosexuality by claiming that since there are sincere and faithful Christians who believe in full inclusion, that it must therefore not be an outrageous idea.
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« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2007, 08:21:30 AM »
Quote from: charlie on December 21, 2007, 06:30:02 AM
Quote from: da525382 on December 20, 2007, 03:27:27 PM
You are very much entitled to believe the grace of God manifests in a synergystic cooperation with man.  Much of Christiandom does, much of it however, does not.
Well MOST of Christendom is Roman Catholic, so where does that leave us? I one time had a fellow try to shut me down in a religious discussion on homosexuality by claiming that since there are sincere and faithful Christians who believe in full inclusion, that it must therefore not be an outrageous idea.

Your premise is illogical, nor do I even understand your question about where it "leaves" us.  That sect of Christiandom had about a 10 century head-start with a foundational primacy not in scripture alone, and an incredible purge machine to snuff out any opposition and maintain illiteracy in the laity. 

And I am really scratching my head about your discussion of homosexuality in the context of synergism and monergism.  I'm sorry, but if you equate God's grace with "full inclusion" as you seem to have defined it, you certainly have gone off on your own trail, that does not make God a synergistic God of salvation, in my opinion, from scripture, if that's what you're trying to say with this obtuse statement of yours.
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