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Author Topic: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?  (Read 71112 times)

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Offline GTM

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #700 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 18:04:31 »
Wycliffes_Shillelagh,

 Amen, It is the hearing that unlocks the truth, not the intellect.


GTM

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #700 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 18:04:31 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #701 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 19:12:04 »
My friend, I think that your idea is close but I am not sure that it is intellect that gets the job done but saints who are walking in the presence of God.

GTM
I agree, and would rather hear from God daily than be able to read the Bible with perfect clarity all the time.

Jarrod

The first, hearing from God, I find a bit interesting.  What is the scriptural basis for expecting such a thing?  The second, being able to read the Bible with perfect clarity, is only wishful thinking, but certainly a goal.  We should all want to read and understand the Bible.  I can understand that you might  prefer the first over the second, but I am not much interested in learning from you about anything that you think you might have heard, unless you can back it up with the second.

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #701 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 19:12:04 »

Offline GTM

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #702 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 19:23:28 »
Jimmy,

  Your response seems a little short. Did I do or say something to rile you up?

The Greek for word comes in several flavors.

Graphe or scripture/ writing
Logos or divine reason
Rema/Rhema  the spoken not written word of God.

To read the scriptures means nothing to the unregenerate man. To read the scriptures with the eyes of the Holy Spirit is a totally different experience.

There are many Bible scholars out there that do not believe the scriptures. They can recites chapter after chapter verse by verse flawlessly. What does that knowledge do for them? You on the other hand are a Christian and the Spirit of God teaches you in His time and in His way because you have been given the eyes to see. That my friend is the rema of God.

Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing and hearing from the word (rema)

By the way, I don't need yto back up what I say but rather to share why I believe asI do.

God bless Jimmy and I hope your day gets better.

GTM


   

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #703 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 19:44:38 »
Jimmy,

Your response seems a little short. Did I do or say something to rile you up?

I was responding to Jarrod's post, not to yours.

By the way, I don't need yto back up what I say but rather to share why I believe asI do.

God bless Jimmy and I hope your day gets better.

GTM

Unless you can back it up, then what you say is only interesting.  It carries not weight at all with me.  You can tell me how much you have "heard" from God speaking to you, but frankly that is of little consequence and meaning to me.  I have talked with too many who have "heard" the Lord speak to them telling them this and that.  Too many times it is apparent that it was just plain wrong.

So in fact I don't care why you believe as you do unless you can show me where it supported by the Scriptures.

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #703 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 19:44:38 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #704 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 19:45:16 »
I agree, and would rather hear from God daily than be able to read the Bible with perfect clarity all the time.

Jarrod

The first, hearing from God, I find a bit interesting.  What is the scriptural basis for expecting such a thing?
Genesis - Maps?  That the Bible exists at all?  Seriously, show me the Biblical book that doesn't include hearing from God.  It doesn't exist, because they are all revelation.

I am not much interested in learning from you about anything that you think you might have heard, unless you can back it up with the second.
As it should be.  Although, He doesn't usually include a command to "tell Jimmy."  When I get one of those, I'll let you know.

Jarrod

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #704 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 19:45:16 »



Offline Jimmy

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #705 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 19:57:13 »
I agree, and would rather hear from God daily than be able to read the Bible with perfect clarity all the time.

Jarrod

The first, hearing from God, I find a bit interesting.  What is the scriptural basis for expecting such a thing?
Genesis - Maps?  That the Bible exists at all?  Seriously, show me the Biblical book that doesn't include hearing from God.  It doesn't exist, because they are all revelation.

I am not much interested in learning from you about anything that you think you might have heard, unless you can back it up with the second.
As it should be.  Although, He doesn't usually include a command to "tell Jimmy."  When I get one of those, I'll let you know.

Jarrod

That the Bible exists at all is pretty much evidence of the fact that God is probably not going to speak to you directly.  If God were speaking to each of us individually, there would be no need for the Bible at all. 

I do agree that one of the ways that the Holy Spirit works with us and for us is to help us in our studies of the Scriptures.  But that doesn't include what some refer to as the doctrine of illumination.

Offline GTM

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #706 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 19:57:41 »
Wycliffes_Shillelagh,

 Amen Brother

GTM

Offline GTM

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #707 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 19:59:31 »
Jimmy,

  I might be wrong, but I am inclined to believe that you like the fight part of this forum.

GTM

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #708 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 20:02:27 »
That the Bible exists at all is pretty much evidence of the fact that God is probably not going to speak to you directly.  If God were speaking to each of us individually, there would be no need for the Bible at all. 
Right up to the point where someone claimed to have a revelation, but lied.

Jim, you seem to be living in Amos 8:

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find [it].

I recommend you move your spiritual HQ to the New Testament, where God was pleased to call His name "the Word."

Jarrod
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 20:13:11 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

Offline GTM

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #709 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 20:20:13 »
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh,

    You have just received a new title. The post Master. That was a great post.

GTM

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #710 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 20:30:29 »
 ::blushing::  ::tippinghat::

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #711 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 20:50:33 »
That the Bible exists at all is pretty much evidence of the fact that God is probably not going to speak to you directly.  If God were speaking to each of us individually, there would be no need for the Bible at all. 
Right up to the point where someone claimed to have a revelation, but lied.

Jim, you seem to be living in Amos 8:

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find [it].

I recommend you move your spiritual HQ to the New Testament, where God was pleased to call His name "the Word."

Jarrod

And........?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #712 on: Sun Aug 24, 2008 - 21:02:58 »
And then listen for Him.

Do you want a Scriptural formula for hearing from God?  Look at Jesus baptism, Matthew 3.

1.  Fulfill that which you know to be righteous.
2.  Determine that God knows better than you, and endeavor to change your thinking to agree with His.  Drown yourself in His thinking.  (ie be baptized in repentance)
3.  Go.  It's easier to steer a moving boat than a stationary one.  Do something.
4.  Watch.  God shows us things - usually "what could be."  Try to make your world look like what He shows you it could look like.
5.  Be inspired.  Spiritual impetus isn't vocal, it's compulsive.  Obey the compulsions to do righteous things.  Be a hand or foot in the body of Christ.
6.  Listen.  And ask.

There's some progression there, but also a lot of overlap.

Jarrod

Offline GTM

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #713 on: Mon Aug 25, 2008 - 15:06:49 »
Wycliffes_Shillelagh,

 Amen


GTM

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #714 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 07:59:21 »
And then listen for Him.

Do you want a Scriptural formula for hearing from God?  Look at Jesus baptism, Matthew 3.

1.  Fulfill that which you know to be righteous.
2.  Determine that God knows better than you, and endeavor to change your thinking to agree with His.  Drown yourself in His thinking.  (ie be baptized in repentance)
3.  Go.  It's easier to steer a moving boat than a stationary one.  Do something.
4.  Watch.  God shows us things - usually "what could be."  Try to make your world look like what He shows you it could look like.
5.  Be inspired.  Spiritual impetus isn't vocal, it's compulsive.  Obey the compulsions to do righteous things.  Be a hand or foot in the body of Christ.
6.  Listen.  And ask.

There's some progression there, but also a lot of overlap.

Jarrod

Amen.

da525382

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #715 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 08:02:11 »
That the Bible exists at all is pretty much evidence of the fact that God is probably not going to speak to you directly.  If God were speaking to each of us individually, there would be no need for the Bible at all. 
Right up to the point where someone claimed to have a revelation, but lied.

Jim, you seem to be living in Amos 8:

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find [it].

I recommend you move your spiritual HQ to the New Testament, where God was pleased to call His name "the Word."

Jarrod

Another "amen". .................Here's the ludicrous-ness of the whole matter:  You know, God only wants the literate, that's why he transformed himself into parchment and ink.  Poor illiterate fellas (of course, the massive majority of the earth's population), I feel bad that God has shut them out.  But we can pat ourselves on the back, that is those of us who are literate, that God shines his face upon us.

Offline GTM

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #716 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 08:03:06 »
da525382,

  Haven't heard from you in a while. Where you been hiding?

GTM

da525382

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #717 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 08:06:53 »
da525382,

  Haven't heard from you in a while. Where you been hiding?

GTM

Sorry, GTM, I've been quite busy lately, but I still tune in to read your posts.  All I can say is "hoo-rah" to you, and of course, many others here, for saying things profoundly above my own head, hence my reticence to chime in much.....You guys are above my head!!

Offline GTM

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #718 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 08:09:20 »
da525382 ,

 You should join us over on another thread. It is titled, a question I would like answered. It is under theology.

GTM

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #719 on: Wed Aug 27, 2008 - 08:40:10 »
da525382 ,

 You should join us over on another thread. It is titled, a question I would like answered. It is under theology.

GTM

Sure thing...thanks.

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #720 on: Sun Sep 21, 2008 - 14:58:20 »
Many of you here assume that men can, if they so choose, to come to Christ whenever they please. They need only to believe, and they will know Him. How do you reconcile that belief with such scripture as:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:44

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

Offline kindlychung

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #721 on: Wed Oct 01, 2008 - 21:35:40 »
I can tell you it is detrimental that you give up on yourself, realize your evil and you have to understand why and how grace works.
and have a genuine desire to be a son of God. then the Spirit comes.
Thats what happened to me and I had no preconceived notions of how it all worked before this happened.


I guess God is so good at saving that it seems like it is all about us making a good decision.
I don't understand why a sinner should suddenly feel the necessity of repentance and have a genuine desire of being a child of God.

Offline kindlychung

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #722 on: Wed Oct 01, 2008 - 21:50:44 »
Sure he can, once his will has been made free. Until then, he doesn't even want to come to Christ.

If man can come to Christ apart from God, why pray for God to change hearts and save souls? And the corollary statement, if man is not responsible to seek out his salvation, why preach to them? God is 100% sovereign in the salvation of man, and man is 100% responsible for his own condition. There is an apparent set of overlapping responsibilities that may not be fully grasped this side of eternity, yet it exists.

If we take an example of the person of Christ it becomes clearer:

We know that the Bible teaches that Christ is fully God and fully man. If I were to overemphasize either of these attributes at the expense of the other, I would have had to have denied Christ at some point. To limit one's theology to Calvinism's TULIP might be akin to denying the humanity of Christ, while holding to Arminianism could be akin to denying the divinity of Christ. How the two natures of Christ are merged together is a mystery to us, yet we must stand on them as foundational truths. Likewise, how the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man are merged is a mystery to us, yet we must stand on them as foundational truths as well. To attempt to delineate them perfectly, naturally must cause man to reject (or explain away) some portion of God's word.


CRP


A balanced view. I love it!
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 01, 2008 - 22:03:27 by kindlychung »

Offline Harold

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Re: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?
« Reply #723 on: Thu Oct 02, 2008 - 16:23:44 »
I can tell you it is detrimental that you give up on yourself, realize your evil and you have to understand why and how grace works.
and have a genuine desire to be a son of God. then the Spirit comes.
Thats what happened to me and I had no preconceived notions of how it all worked before this happened.


I guess God is so good at saving that it seems like it is all about us making a good decision.
I don't understand why a sinner should suddenly feel the necessity of repentance and have a genuine desire of being a child of God.

It is called the power of God's word to change a heart. Faith comes from hearing.

FTL

 

     
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