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Author Topic: Can man come to Jesus in and of their own freewill?  (Read 27464 times)
Terrence
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« on: May 30, 2008, 08:08:06 PM »

Many of you here assume that men can, if they so choose, to come to Christ whenever they please. They need only to believe, and they will know Him. How do you reconcile that belief with such scripture as:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:44

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” - John 6:65

"All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." - Luke 10:22
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OkiMar
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2008, 08:40:08 PM »

Absolutely man comes to God of his own free will. 

John 6:44 - The Father draws us through his word. Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17).

John 6:65 - We are saved through God's plan of redemption. We cannot be saved separate and apart from grace by faith. Those who obey the Lord are granted into His rest.

Lu 10:22 - To know Christ and the Father is to obey them (I John 2:3). God revealed the new covenant. Without such revelation, we would be lost. God's word reveals Christ to us today just as his words and deeds revealed Him to the world in the 1st century.
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2008, 08:40:08 PM »

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da525382
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2008, 09:31:29 PM »

No.
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spurly
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2008, 09:46:10 PM »

No.  The will of man and the will of the Father must work together.
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He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; like one from whom men hide their face; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.  Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.  But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.
Robert Pate
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2008, 10:08:55 PM »

Many of you here assume that men can, if they so choose, to come to Christ whenever they please. They need only to believe, and they will know Him. How do you reconcile that belief with such scripture as:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:44

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” - John 6:65

"All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." - Luke 10:22

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."  John 3:16.
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BornToReign
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2008, 10:09:42 PM »

I can tell you it is detrimental that you give up on yourself, realize your evil and you have to understand why and how grace works.
and have a genuine desire to be a son of God. then the Spirit comes.
Thats what happened to me and I had no preconceived notions of how it all worked before this happened.
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2008, 10:09:42 PM »

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JerryW
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2008, 11:04:37 PM »

No man has ever come to Christ on his own "freewill." The vs. already stated on prior posts say it very well. For one the natural man cannot see the depth of his depravity aside from the convicting work of the Holy Spirit. Second of all Eph. 2:1 says "we were dead in our trespasses and sin."  Something that is dead cannot raise itself up on its own. Those that think you can have been deceived by the "Great Deceiver who comes as an angel of Light." He has deceived many into thinking they are in the Light but yet they still are walking  in darkness. There are many other vs. that speak of man"s inability to come into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ on his own effort.
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blituri
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2008, 11:22:51 PM »

Certainly, but probably not those who take verses out of context:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:44

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets,
      And they shall be all taught of God.
      Every man therefore that hath heard,
      and hath learned of the Father,
      cometh unto me
.

John 5:39 [you] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
       and they are they which testify of me.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life

Wouldn't that accuse Jesus with being deceptive if they COULD NOT come IN ORDER THAT they might have life?

Those who believe that "Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God" know the Father and are therefore justified and COMPETENT to come to God.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
       and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Those who "rejected God" did so because they COULD: otherwise wouldn't we accuse Jesus with nonsense?

Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God,
       being baptized with the baptism of John.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves,
        being not baptized of him.



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Bonnie
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2008, 05:09:44 AM »

"No man comes unto me except my Father which sent me draw him."
I believe the drawing power of God must be working within an individual for them to be saved; however the Bible tells us that it's not God's Will that any should perish but that all come to the knowledge of the truth.

Based on those Scriptures I believe God calls every person at least once in their lifetime and probably He has called them many times if they've rejected Him?
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Psalms 118:24  "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
JerryW
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2008, 08:35:54 AM »

"No man comes unto me except my Father which sent me draw him."
I believe the drawing power of God must be working within an individual for them to be saved; however the Bible tells us that it's not God's Will that any should perish but that all come to the knowledge of the truth.

Based on those Scriptures I believe God calls every person at least once in their lifetime and probably He has called them many times if they've rejected Him?
Bonnie,   Can you explain how God "calls" people since you believe he calls everybody at least once. Also, then can you explain Rom 8:30 where it says"those he called he also justified and those he justified he also glorified".
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2008, 08:35:54 AM »

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Jimmy
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« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2008, 08:36:01 AM »

It is a fact that all men everywhere from the beginning of time until now have sought to find God.  That is evidenced everywhere from the tribes isolated in the heart of the most dense jungles of the earth to the largest societies open and interactive.  The results of that seeking out to find God are evidenced also by the vast array of religions such as Hinduism, Buddism, or the great white spirit of the native American Indians.

I believe that is part of what Paul was talking about when he said "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen..." (Rom 1:21)  One of the most important differences between all those religions and Judaism and Christianity is the revelation from God himself. All the others are God looked for.  Judaism and then Christianity is God revealed.

So it is not so much a matter of free will.  It is nearly universal that man of his own free will seeks God.  But the critical part in this is that God has given the answer to man's seeking.  God has told us who He is and what He is.  God has revealed himself to us through his word.  Jesus said,

John 6:45  "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Here Jesus may have been referring to Isaiah,

Isa 54:13  "And all your sons will be taught of the LORD; And the well-being of your sons will be great.

Or more that likely He was referring to the new covenant (Jer 31:33-34),  

33  "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34  "And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD , "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


Some think that what the prophet meant was that God would divinely instill into the hearts of man His law.  But the point here is that God through his Holy Word has revealed himself to us.   It is through His Holy Word that His Law is written on our hearts.  If we hear and obey then Jesus is there for us.  If we hear and learn from the Father, that is,  read and study the Word, we will come to Jesus.  That is what He said.  Of course some hear and do not learn.

So then the answer is man can seek God of their own free will.  That is apparent throughout the world and throughout all time.  In that search if man is given the Holy Word of God then his search can be successful for God has revealed himself to all who will hear and obey him.

It is your job and my job to see that all men everywhere are given the Holy Word of God in answer to his seeking.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,  teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matt 28:19-20)
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Robert Pate
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2008, 08:45:54 AM »

The Spirit of God is in the world beckoning all to come to Christ.  This is why we are to be witnesses for him.  The Gospel is the call to come to Christ.
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OkiMar
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2008, 09:00:02 AM »

According to Romans, faith comes by hearing the word of God. As we hear the Gospel story, we are free to make up our own mind. For God to beckon some and not others would make God a respecter of persons. He is not. His desire is for everyone to be saved. Those who hear and obey will be saved. Those who reject Christ and His message will be lost.
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2008, 09:00:02 AM »

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DCR
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2008, 09:10:44 AM »

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:44

But, then, Jesus said this in John 12:32:

"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Must we assume that drawing means forcing or that God's drawing is irresistible?  

I personally believe the use of the term "free will" is a distraction in these discussions, so I tend to avoid it.  Man does have a will of his own... and the ability to make choices (however, limited those choices may be in any given situation).  The providence of God may dictate how "free" a man's will may be in a given context.  Man is certainly not "free" to do anything and everything he wills or wants to do.  So, that's why "free will" is not true in any "absolute" sense.

With all that said, discipleship appears to be voluntary.  God won't necessarily force/predestine everyone into it.  But, His not forcing/predestining someone does not necessarily mean that someone can't follow God if the opportunity is there, and the individual makes the choice to do so (given that we have scriptures that tell us that Jesus will draw all men to Himself and that God desires all men to be saved, etc.). 

"Choose you this day whom you will serve...  As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:15)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2008, 09:17:08 AM by DCR » Logged
Circuitridingpreacher
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« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2008, 09:25:47 AM »

Sure he can, once his will has been made free. Until then, he doesn't even want to come to Christ.

If man can come to Christ apart from God, why pray for God to change hearts and save souls? And the corollary statement, if man is not responsible to seek out his salvation, why preach to them? God is 100% sovereign in the salvation of man, and man is 100% responsible for his own condition. There is an apparent set of overlapping responsibilities that may not be fully grasped this side of eternity, yet it exists.

If we take an example of the person of Christ it becomes clearer:

We know that the Bible teaches that Christ is fully God and fully man. If I were to overemphasize either of these attributes at the expense of the other, I would have had to have denied Christ at some point. To limit one's theology to Calvinism's TULIP might be akin to denying the humanity of Christ, while holding to Arminianism could be akin to denying the divinity of Christ. How the two natures of Christ are merged together is a mystery to us, yet we must stand on them as foundational truths. Likewise, how the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man are merged is a mystery to us, yet we must stand on them as foundational truths as well. To attempt to delineate them perfectly, naturally must cause man to reject (or explain away) some portion of God's word.


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« Last Edit: May 31, 2008, 09:48:12 AM by Circuitridingpreacher » Logged
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