Ah yes...so true Grasshopper...so true....

Sorry to get it off track, Dave, that wasn't my intention.

JMG , it wasn't off track that bad, but I did want to head it off before it got out of control. Your question was a valid one, but one that I also believed would be answered if everything that was posted was considered. Follow along with da if you wish to. I'd like to hear what you have to say regarding this.

da...i'm glad you recognise that "tension". Both truths are taught, hence the term "compatibilism". Actually, the title of the thread is correct when we consider that libertarian free will, is very different from what the Bible teaches. Libertarian free will supporters are those "who believe that that free will is free and independent of God's own will". Hence the term "incompatabilism". In other words, they believe that God's will and man's will must be seperate for there to be actual accountability and "freedom" as they believe.

If you recognise God's sovereignty, and the tension, then that's half the battle. Now, we need to consider just how free man's will really is.

We can now take a closer look at the difference between libertarian free will and Biblical free will. The link provided in the OP does just that.

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What is Libertarian Free Will?

Freedom as understood in the libertarian sense means that a person is fully able to perform some other action in place of the one that is actually done, and this is not predetermined by any prior circumstances, our desires or even our affections. In other words, our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature. All free will theists hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called our decision or free choice. Libertarian freedom is, in fact, the freedom to act contrary to our nature, wants and greatest desires. Responsibility, in their view, always means that we could have done otherwise.  This is what libertarians themselves confess as you will see in the following 3-part definition from Jerry Walls and Joseph Dongell in their popular book Why I am not a Calvinist:


(1) “The essence of this view is that a free action is one that does not have a sufficient condition or cause prior to its occurrence…the common experience of deliberation assumes that our choices are undetermined.” 

(2) “…It seems intuitively and immediately evident that many of our actions are up to us in the sense that when faced with a decision, both (or more) options are within our power to choose…Libertarians argue that our immediate sense of power to choose between alternative courses of action is more certain and trustworthy than any theory that denies we have power. 

(3) “Libertarians take very seriously the widespread judgment that we are morally responsible for our actions and that moral responsibility requires freedom” That is, a person cannot be held morally responsible for an act unless he or she was free to perform that act and free to refrain from it. This is basic moral intuition.”

 
Finally, in a very revealing admission, Wall and Dongell end their definition of libertarian freedom by asserting that to prove the validity of libertarian free will “…Arminians rely on contested philosophical judgments at this point.”  By their own admission, then they RELY on philosophy, not Scripture as an ultimate basis for their conjecture. Walls and Dongell contest that Calvinists no less must also rely on philosophy to demonstrate the truthfulness of their positions. However, this is a notion which I will decisively refute later in the discussion by showing the Scriptural basis for the position that there is always, of necessity, a reason for the choices we make, especially moral choices (compatiblism).

Libertarians, therefore, when asked what caused the person to choose one action over another, will answer that a free act is when no causal, antecedent, laws of nature, desires or other factors are sufficient to incline the will decisively to chose one option or another. Clark Pinnock, a well-known defender of this position, asserted that only the kind of freedom, which has the ability to choose the contrary, is genuine freedom. He says, “It views a free action as one in which a person is free to perform an action or refrain from performing it and is not completely determined in the matter by prior forces---nature, nurture or even God. Libertarian freedom recognizes the power of contrary choice. One acts freely in a situation if, and only if, one could have done otherwise.” (Most Moved Mover pg. 127) In other words, within libertarianism, we could acceptably choose to receive Christ apart from a desire to receive Him. 

Now lets look at the opposing position called compatibilism.

What is Compatibilism?

Compatibilism is the belief that we make choices for a reason, that the will is not independent of the person and we will always choose what we want (Deut 30:16,17,19; Matt 17:12; James 1:14).  It means that we can act freely (without coercion), not independent from God or free from our desires, but free to act according to our desires and nature. In other words, a self-determining will (to chose to act as we please) is compatible with determinism. The Scripture itself testifies that

“…no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.  (Luke 6:42-45)

Figtrees, of necessity, grow figs, not thorns. According to Jesus, then, nature produces a necessary result or fruit at the exclusion of something else. One cannot produce a result that is contrary to nature. While libertarians uphold the philosophy that “choice without sufficient cause” is what makes one responsible, the compatibilist, on the other hand, looks to Scripture which testifies that it is because our choices have motives and desires that moral responsibility is actually established.  Responsibility requires that our acts, of necessity, be intentional, as I will further demonstrate later in the essay.
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Are you with me so far?

Ehp. 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to my Greek NT text book "and that" sums up everything that came before....meaning even faith is a gift of God.  Faith is also listed as a fruit of the Spirit, man does not produce saving faith.

jm

Ok Harold, I’ll help ya out.

I posted the following:

Ehp. 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to my Greek NT text book "and that" sums up everything that came before....meaning even faith is a gift of God.  Faith is also listed as a fruit of the Spirit, man does not produce saving faith.[end of quote]

So, lets get a little deeper, you asked the following:


Nope, but God does give you faith to believe.  The unregenerate man cannot bring about his own salvation by producing a saving faith from his spiritually dead soul.


See Ehp. 2.  God supplies our every need, faith included and if I may quote you on Eph. 2, “the above statement, I believe points to the gift of salvation.”  This would include grace AND faith.


Yes, we repent because God’s work in our soul. 

As for defining [saving as opposed to, say historical] faith, I make no claim to be eloquent and so I must rely on a confession of faith which I believe states it better then I ever could:

Chapter 14: Of Saving Faith

1._____ The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened. ( 2 Corinthians 4:13; Ephesians 2:8; Romans 10:14, 17; Luke 17:5; 1 Peter 2:2; Acts 20:32 )

2._____ By this faith a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word for the authority of God himself, and also apprehendeth an excellency therein above all other writings and all things in the world, as it bears forth the glory of God in his attributes, the excellency of Christ in his nature and offices, and the power and fullness of the Holy Spirit in his workings and operations: and so is enabled to cast his soul upon the truth thus believed; and also acteth differently upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come; but the principal acts of saving faith have immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.  ( Acts 24:14; Psalms 27:7-10; Psalms 119:72; 2 Timothy 1:12; John 14:14; Isaiah 66:2; Hebrews 11:13; John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Galatians 2:20; Acts 15:11 )

3._____ This faith, although it be different in degrees, and may be weak or strong, yet it is in the least degree of it different in the kind or nature of it, as is all other saving grace, from the faith and common grace of temporary believers; and therefore, though it may be many times assailed and weakened, yet it gets the victory, growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ, who is both the author and finisher of our faith.
( Hebrews 5:13, 14; Matthew 6:30; Romans 4:19, 20; 2 Peter 1:1; Ephesians 6:16; 1 John 5:4, 5; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Colossians 2:2; Hebrews 12:2 )

Peace,

jm

One Reason to Affirm Free Will


If it were only God's choice in the matter then all would be saved--He is not wishing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance.  Obviously man has a choice to make when it comes to salvation.

Man's ability to choose does not violate God's sovereignty since it was God, in His sovereignty who gave man that ability.

Don't you know?  Peter never did understood the truth - only Paul was accurately in tune with the Holy Spirit.

2Pe 3:7  By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8  But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (NIV)

God is not slack in His promise to us, but is patient with the ungodly wanting all to come to repentance. Wanting all to have a chance to repent.

FTL