Author Topic: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.  (Read 26778 times)

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Offline Dave...

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Offline Dave...

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #1 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 13:07:56 »
Divine Sovereignty and Human Will

God's Words is not only unapologetic, but also relentless in teaching God's complete sovereignty over all He created, every rain drop that falls, every lot that is drawn, every sparrow that falls, that none of these things happen contrary to His decree, but because he ordains them to happen. His word also teaches us that man makes responsible choices and will be held accountable for them. The Bible also teaches both of these truths in the same breath more than a few times.

Divine sovereignty and human will, Compatible or Incompatible?

God's sovereignty is unaffected, no matter how free or how enslaved one might be. To pit God's sovereignty against mans freedom, as many do today, in reality doesn't solve anything and is also clearly contrary to scripture. One does not cancel the other out. Freedom cancels out enslavement, and vise versa. God sovereignty is unaffected through all of this. God is completely sovereign, while man, in his enslavement to his sinful nature, is free to follow his hearts desire, this is called "responsible choice."

Compatibilism: Grounded in scripture.

"The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."Taken from the book "Why I am not an Arminian"

Incompatiblism: Grounded on the theory of "libertarian free will".

"Freedom as understood in the libertarian sense means that a person is fully able to perform some other action in place of the one that is actually done, and this is not predetermined by any prior circumstances, our desires or even our affections. In other words, our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature. All free will theists hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called our decision or free choice. Libertarian freedom is, in fact, the freedom to act contrary to our nature, wants and greatest desires. Responsibility, in their view, always means that we could have done otherwise. "http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol...bertarian.html

That's the foundation of this discussion. We move on.

The incompadibilist seeks to find some room for the sovereignty of God within the assumption of libertarian freedom. But incompatibilism fails badly as a way of understanding the relationship between divine sovereignty and human freedom. First, it assumes a libertarian view of freedom. Human beings always possess the power of contrary choice. Second, incompatibilism insists that such a notion of freedom is the necessary condition for moral accountability: I cannot be held responsible if I could not choose to do otherwise. Third, in this view the sovereignty of God is necessarily limited by human freedom. If God has ordained that I perform some act, I could not choose otherwise and thus I am not truly free. While this collection of assumptions constitutes a coherent whole, each is no more than an assumption. And while they are all taken as having self-evident power within Arminian theological circles, we can find no evidence that scripture teaches or assumes any of them.---

---Scripture seems to deny the very sort of independence that the libertarian freedom demands. Human beings are never independent of God. Whereas incompatibilism holds that libertarian freedom--independence from all causes and forces external to the will--is the prerequisite for responsibility, the Bible seams to assume the opposite: responsibility is the necessary condition for freedom. The gift of responsible choice has meaning and significance not because of any connection to libertarian freedom but because it is an essential aspect of our imaging God. Freedom in scripture is not independence from God and His will but dependence upon God and our faithful participation in His Kingdom.

True freedom, freedom in the Biblical sense, is the liberty to obey God without restraint, without sin standing in the way.---

---Scripture teaches that the sinner is a slave to sin. A slave is not free but bound. Any discussion of freedom within a Christian or Biblical context must do justice to this fundamental Biblical principle: sin reigns over the unregenerate heart. The sinner is not free to please or love God. Biblical freedom, the ability to do that which is pleasing to God ( John 8:34-36; cf. Romans 6:15-23; 2 Corinthians 3:17 ), Freedom from sin, is given to us by the redemptive work of Christ.---

---Jesus said: "The good man brings forth good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored in his heart. For out of the outflow of his heart his mouth speaks" ( Luke 6:45; cf. Matthew 7:15-20; Matthew 12:33-35 ). A person chooses and acts according to his character. The will is not independent of the person and nature who chooses. We do what we want to do ( Deuteronomy 30:19; Matthew 17:12 Jas 1:14), even though our characters, which are themselves determined by a myriad of forces external to us and outside of our control, determine what we want to do. Personal character is not nearly as spontaneous as those who see the will as a power of contrary choice like to suggest.
--- (Taken from the book "why I am not an arminian")

Offline Harold

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #2 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 13:35:18 »
So God believes for you?

God believed for Abraham?

You do not repent?

FTL

Offline Dave...

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #3 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:08:09 »
Harold, do you give thanks to God before dinner, or, for that matter, before you eat at any time?

It was you who worked for the money, went to the store to buy the food, and prepared the food to eat. Why would you thank God for that?

Or to use your line of reasoning...

Does God gets the food for you?

Dave



 

Offline Dave...

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #4 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:10:43 »
Here are two very clear biblical examples of God's sovereignty and man making a responsible choice (compatibilism) in action at the same time.

Joseph speaking to his brothers who sold him into slavery said;

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (also Gen. 45:4-8)

"One sinful action is in view. Josephs brothers meant it for evil. But in direct parallel, God meant the same action for good. Due to the intention of the hearts of Josephs brothers, the action in the human realm was evil. The very same action as part of God's eternal decree was meant for good, for by it God brought about His purpose and plan. One action, two intentions, compatible in all things. Josephs brothers were accountable for their intentions; God is glorified for His."(White)

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

"One action , the great sacrifice of the son of God, is in view. Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews were all gathered together against Jesus. Their actions were obviously sinful. Their intentions were evil. Yet, the Word of God is clear: They did what they did because God's hand and purpose predestined it to take place. Were they accountable for their intentions and desires? Of course. But was the certainty of the Cross and the sacrifice ever dependent upon man's will? Never. It happened according to the predestined plan of God and is therefore completely to His honor and glory. One action, part of the divine decree, sinful on the part of the intentions of the men involved, and yet fully in harmony with the holy purpose of God, to His glory and His praise. Man's will, God's sovereign decree, compatible with one another. This is the biblical teaching." (White)

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #4 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:10:43 »



Offline Dave...

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #5 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:14:31 »
The Bible tells us that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:13-13), but does this make it any less through, by and from God?

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jude shows the same...

Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 But others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, 25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

Offline Harold

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #6 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:18:44 »
Yes, I choose to give thanks from a grateful heart.

God provides for my every need, that's a promise, I believe it because God has said it.

I have to choose to believe.

Joseph"s brothers choose to do evil, Joseph chooses to do good, God works all things for good, of those who choose to love him. We love Him because He first loved us.

FTL




Offline Dave...

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #7 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:21:38 »
The Holy Spirit is necessary in salvation, hence the idea of libertarian free will does not exist. Here is a non exhaustive list to get the idea across.

The result of the fall of man into spiritual death.

Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:1-7, Romans 5:12, Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 2:13, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, ( John 3:5-7 compare to John 1:12-13 )

Darkened minds and corrupt hearts.

Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8:21, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Jeremiah 17:9, Mark 7:21-23, John 3:19, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 4:17-19, Ephesians 5:8, Titus 1:15.

Bondage to sin and Satan

John 8:44, Ephesians 2:1-2, 2 Timothy 2:25-26, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, John 8:34, Romans 6:20, Titus 3:3.

A universal bondage

2 Chronicles 6:36 (Compare to 1 Kings 8:46), Job 15:14-16, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:9-12, (James 3:2, James 3:, (1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10.)

Inability to change

Job 14:4, Jeremiah 13:23, Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 12:33, John 6:44, John 6:65, Romans 11:35-36, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 4:7, 2 Corinthians 3:5.

The Spirit saves

Romans 8:14, 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 2 Corinthians 3:6, 1 Peter 1:1-2.

The Spirit reveals the Secrets of God

Matthew 11:25-27, Luke 10:21, (Matthew 13:10-11, Matthew 13:16), Luke 8:10, Matthew 16:15-17, (John 6:37, John 6:44-45), John 6:64-65, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 1:17-18, (John 10:3-6, John 10:16, John 10:26-29).

The Spirit gives faith and repentance

Faith and repentance are divine gifts and are the result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, Acts 16:14, Acts 18:27, Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 1:29, 2 Timothy 2:25-26.

The Spirit effectually calls

In addition to the general outward call, the Holy Spirit extends a special inward call to the elect. The general call can be and often is rejected, the special call always results in the conversion of those of whom it was made.

Romans 1:6-7, Romans 8:30, Romans 9:23-24, 1 Corinthians 1:1-2, 1 Corinthians 1:9, 1 Corinthians 1:23-31, Galatians 1:15-16, Ephesians 4:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, Hebrews 9:15, Jude 1, 1 Peter 1:15, 1 Peter 2:9, 1 Peter 5:10, 2 Peter 1:3, Revelation 17:14.

Salvation, Given by a Sovereign God

Isaiah 55:11, John 3:27, John 17:2, Romans 9:16, 1 Corinthians 3:6-7, 1 Corinthians 4:7, Philippians 2:12-13, James 1:18, 1 John 5:20.

Perseverance is from God

Isaiah 43:1-3, Isaiah 54:10, Jeremiah 32:40, Matthew 18:12-14, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:35-40, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, (John 17:11-12, John 17:15), Romans 5:8-10, Romans 8:1, Romans 29-30, Romans 8:35-39, 1 Corinthians 1:7-9, 1 Corinthians 10:13, (2 Corinthians 4:14, 2 Corinthians 4:17), (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:13-14), Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 2 Timothy 4:18, (Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:15), Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 12:28, 1 Peter 1:3-5, (1 John 2:19, 1 John 2:25), (1 John 5:4, 1 John 5:11-13, 1 John 5:20), Jude 1, Jude 24-25.

Some more hurdles here. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/libertarian.html

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Do you believe that God "works all things according to the counsel of His will"?

You must decide how sovereign is God as revealed by the Bible. Absolutely sovereign or with a reduced sovereignty.

If we have the natural capacity to believe or reject the gospel freely (in the libertarian sense) why is there the need for the Holy Spirit in salvation at all?

You must decide whether man can freely of his own free will decide for Christ or is he totally helpless - really blind, deaf, lost etc., - and must altogether rely on the free grace of God.

 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Eph. 1:4 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

What people are doing is taking one of the great truths of God's Word that has offered great comfort to Christians since the Gospel began to be preached (God's complete sovereignty) and traded it in for a philosophy (libertarian free will) that has nothing to do with God's Word. This freedom of mans will, as the libertarian defines it, is nowhere taught in scripture. To use that philosophy as a starting point and as some kind of grid for all other scripture and doctrines to be tested by, and if they fail this test they are rejected, is nothing more than a rejection of the true God in exchange for an idol. The true biblical God is an offense to them.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #8 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:21:45 »
I've not gotten to read your posts yet, Dave, but I will later on today.  Before I do, though, I have to ask if anyone sees the irony in the thread title? 

If you choose to reject free will, then........how'd you do that?  Sounds a lot like one hand clapping.

Offline Dave...

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #9 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:24:03 »
Harold's question:
Quote
So God believes for you?

God believed for Abraham?

You do not repent?

Harold's answer to himself:
Quote
God provides for my every need, that's a promise, I believe it because God has said it.

God bless

Offline Harold

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #10 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:26:39 »
I've not gotten to read your posts yet, Dave, but I will later on today.  Before I do, though, I have to ask if anyone sees the irony in the thread title? 

If you choose to reject free will, then........how'd you do that?  Sounds a lot like one hand clapping.

Where's the emoticon for the one hand clapper.   rofl

FTL

Offline Dave...

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #11 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:27:43 »
JMG, read the thread, then you will understand.

Offline Harold

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #12 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:30:23 »
Harold's question:
Quote
So God believes for you?

God believed for Abraham?

You do not repent?

Harold's answer to himself:
Quote
God provides for my every need, that's a promise, I believe it because God has said it.

God bless


Finish by saying I choose to believe.

FTL

Can you answer or do you just use copy and paste?

Offline DCR

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #13 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:32:53 »
I've not gotten to read your posts yet, Dave, but I will later on today.  Before I do, though, I have to ask if anyone sees the irony in the thread title? 

If you choose to reject free will, then........how'd you do that?  Sounds a lot like one hand clapping.

I think I may have been sovereignly predestined to accept libertarian free will.

Offline Dennis

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #14 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:39:22 »
Must kill Frank Drebbin . . . must kill Frank Drebbin. . . .

Offline broach972

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #15 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 15:52:22 »
I've not gotten to read your posts yet, Dave, but I will later on today.  Before I do, though, I have to ask if anyone sees the irony in the thread title? 

If you choose to reject free will, then........how'd you do that?  Sounds a lot like one hand clapping.

Ah yes...so true Grasshopper...so true....

Offline Dave...

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #16 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 19:08:35 »
Does anyone have any serious questions?

Dave

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #17 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 19:53:55 »
Sorry to get it off track, Dave, that wasn't my intention.

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #18 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 21:07:02 »
Dave,

I'm fully with you....the title of your thread seems to detract from your post....perhaps it would have been better to say something like "11 Reasons Why Free Will Does Not Exist", etc......Anyway, so many here will dog you with questions about "choosing" or simply proffer dismissive, obtusive statements of derision about "God believing for me", etc. 

All of us have the free will to choose, we all have a "free will".....however, the problem comes with the teaching of many you will come up against here, who believe that that free will is free and independent of God's own will, which it is not and no scripture anywhere presupposes that.

Our choices ultimately are ordained and exist in the great fabric of God's own control and sovereignty over everything.  Our "free" choice simultaneously exists within God's own will, scripture is replete with that tension.  Our free choice is "free" but never independent of God's will, for anything independent of God's will is non-existence, for only by and through His will does everything in existence exist and thrive.

How true it is that man may think he chooses everything in his life, when in reality it is God who directs his steps, He tilts the floor and the man, unknowingly increases the speed of his gait, then the Lord tips the floor up, and the man suddenly starts getting tired going uphill.  Truly it is the arrogance of man that sets himself independent and free of the God of this universe.

Offline Dave...

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #19 on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 21:46:42 »
JMG , it wasn't off track that bad, but I did want to head it off before it got out of control. Your question was a valid one, but one that I also believed would be answered if everything that was posted was considered. Follow along with da if you wish to. I'd like to hear what you have to say regarding this.

da...i'm glad you recognise that "tension". Both truths are taught, hence the term "compatibilism". Actually, the title of the thread is correct when we consider that libertarian free will, is very different from what the Bible teaches. Libertarian free will supporters are those "who believe that that free will is free and independent of God's own will". Hence the term "incompatabilism". In other words, they believe that God's will and man's will must be seperate for there to be actual accountability and "freedom" as they believe.

If you recognise God's sovereignty, and the tension, then that's half the battle. Now, we need to consider just how free man's will really is.

We can now take a closer look at the difference between libertarian free will and Biblical free will. The link provided in the OP does just that.

-------------

What is Libertarian Free Will?

Freedom as understood in the libertarian sense means that a person is fully able to perform some other action in place of the one that is actually done, and this is not predetermined by any prior circumstances, our desires or even our affections. In other words, our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature. All free will theists hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called our decision or free choice. Libertarian freedom is, in fact, the freedom to act contrary to our nature, wants and greatest desires. Responsibility, in their view, always means that we could have done otherwise.  This is what libertarians themselves confess as you will see in the following 3-part definition from Jerry Walls and Joseph Dongell in their popular book Why I am not a Calvinist:


(1) “The essence of this view is that a free action is one that does not have a sufficient condition or cause prior to its occurrence…the common experience of deliberation assumes that our choices are undetermined.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 11, 2007 - 03:01:30 by Dave... »

Offline Harold

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #20 on: Tue Dec 11, 2007 - 12:54:44 »
I asked you questions to which I got no reply.

Still waiting.

FTL

Offline JM

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #21 on: Tue Dec 11, 2007 - 14:05:38 »
So God believes for you?

God believed for Abraham?

You do not repent?

FTL

Ehp. 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to my Greek NT text book "and that" sums up everything that came before....meaning even faith is a gift of God.  Faith is also listed as a fruit of the Spirit, man does not produce saving faith.

jm

Offline Harold

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #22 on: Tue Dec 11, 2007 - 15:07:40 »
So God believes for you?

God believed for Abraham?

You do not repent?

FTL

Ehp. 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to my Greek NT text book "and that" sums up everything that came before....meaning even faith is a gift of God.  Faith is also listed as a fruit of the Spirit, man does not produce saving faith.

jm


An excellent response to an unasked question. Even though, the above statement, I believe points to the gift of salvation. So let's define faith, responding to what one believes to be true. Now back to the orginial questions.

FTL

Offline JM

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #23 on: Tue Dec 11, 2007 - 18:43:19 »
Quote
An excellent response to an unasked question. Even though, the above statement, I believe points to the gift of salvation. So let's define faith, responding to what one believes to be true. Now back to the orginial questions.

FTL

Ok Harold, I’ll help ya out.

I posted the following:

Ehp. 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to my Greek NT text book "and that" sums up everything that came before....meaning even faith is a gift of God.  Faith is also listed as a fruit of the Spirit, man does not produce saving faith.[end of quote]

So, lets get a little deeper, you asked the following:

Quote
So God believes for you?

Nope, but God does give you faith to believe.  The unregenerate man cannot bring about his own salvation by producing a saving faith from his spiritually dead soul.

Quote
God believed for Abraham?

See Ehp. 2.  God supplies our every need, faith included and if I may quote you on Eph. 2, “the above statement, I believe points to the gift of salvation.

Offline Harold

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #24 on: Wed Dec 12, 2007 - 12:06:15 »
Quote from: JM
Nope, but God does give you faith to believe.  The unregenerate man cannot bring about his own salvation by producing a saving faith from his spiritually dead soul.

The Greek word.

G4102
πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.

Faith is the result of belief not the other way around, faith comes from hearing. If you believe what you hear and act on it, then it is faith. If you believe the Good News, and then act on it, you show that you believe God, as Abraham did.

FTL

So, God repents for you, and believes for you. Then how do you know you are saved?


Offline johntwayne

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #25 on: Thu Dec 13, 2007 - 04:17:31 »
One Reason to Affirm Free Will

Quote
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9 NASB)

If it were only God's choice in the matter then all would be saved--He is not wishing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance.  Obviously man has a choice to make when it comes to salvation.

Man's ability to choose does not violate God's sovereignty since it was God, in His sovereignty who gave man that ability.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #26 on: Thu Dec 13, 2007 - 06:39:13 »
Good point Jack

Offline zoonance

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #27 on: Thu Dec 13, 2007 - 08:03:06 »
One Reason to Affirm Free Will

Quote
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9 NASB)

If it were only God's choice in the matter then all would be saved--He is not wishing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance.  Obviously man has a choice to make when it comes to salvation.

Man's ability to choose does not violate God's sovereignty since it was God, in His sovereignty who gave man that ability.




Don't you know?  Peter never did understood the truth - only Paul was accurately in tune with the Holy Spirit.

da525382

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #28 on: Thu Dec 13, 2007 - 12:49:46 »
One Reason to Affirm Free Will

Quote
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9 NASB)

If it were only God's choice in the matter then all would be saved--He is not wishing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance.  Obviously man has a choice to make when it comes to salvation.

Man's ability to choose does not violate God's sovereignty since it was God, in His sovereignty who gave man that ability.


Jack,

When we read this passage in the context of 2 Peter, it is apparent he is writing to the church, in fact he states he is writing to the elect, which makes the use of the word "you" pivotal.....He states "but is patient toward you"...he starts out in verse 1 of this chapter using the term "beloved" and repeats it in verse 14....then also in verse 14 he again brings up their forbearance, which continues his own previous point about God's forbearance to them.....and in verse 15 he says "and count the forbearance (or patience) of the Lord as salvation":.......

Quote
14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15And count the patience of our Lord as salvation

In other words, the "not wishing any..but for all" phrases used in verse 9 relate to God's forbearance in waiting on all the elect to come to repentance.  I do not see how contextually Peter would be referring to all men in the world, as that is a given that only  a remnant of the world will be saved, and the readers themselves are a part of this remnant, the elect, as he told them they were....and back in verse 9 that's why Peter states "The Lord is not slow about His promise" for that promise is to them.

Offline Harold

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #29 on: Thu Dec 13, 2007 - 13:12:59 »
2Pe 3:7  By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8  But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (NIV)

God is not slack in His promise to us, but is patient with the ungodly wanting all to come to repentance. Wanting all to have a chance to repent.

FTL

Offline Dave...

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #30 on: Thu Feb 07, 2008 - 14:00:23 »
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« Last Edit: Tue Feb 12, 2008 - 09:33:50 by Dave... »

Offline dreamaccount2000

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #31 on: Fri Feb 08, 2008 - 11:57:45 »
Bible or vain Philosophy?
I will stick with Bible
 
Deut:30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live
 
Prov 1:29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD
 
Prov 3:31Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways
 
 
Psalm 119:30
I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me
 
Ezra 7:13
13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own free will to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
 
Psalm 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.
 
Leviticus 19:5
5 And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will.
 
John 7:17: "if any man will do His will he shall know of the doctrine." Here He said that a man may will to do God's will.
 
But if they had stood in my council, then had they caused my people to hear my words, and had turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings." Jer. 23:22
 
26 then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. Exodus 32:26
 
See Joshua 24:15-25
 

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #32 on: Sun Feb 10, 2008 - 08:09:10 »
Isn't the Bible a lot of words just to tell me that I am going to either heaven or hell and God has decided already which it is?  Moreover, since I don't really have any ability to choose, there is nothing that I can do about it, so why even discuss the issue?
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 10, 2008 - 14:06:57 by Jimmy »

Offline dreamaccount2000

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #33 on: Mon Feb 11, 2008 - 09:11:56 »
Isn't the Bible a lot of words just to tell me that I am going to either heaven or hell and God has decided already which it is?  Moreover, since I don't really have any ability to choose, there is nothing that I can do about it, so why even discuss the issue?

According to Calvinism that is correct. Not according to the bible

Offline Dave...

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Re: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.
« Reply #34 on: Mon Feb 11, 2008 - 09:50:30 »
Dream, yet again you ignore the substance of every post in the thread. You are a propagandist, that's all. I know it makes you furious, but God IS on His throne and He is sovereign. Have a nice day.

Dave