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Author Topic: Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will.  (Read 9641 times)
Tantor
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« Reply #135 on: February 13, 2008, 03:56:41 PM »
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 13, 2008, 03:49:07 PM
Quote from: Tantor on February 13, 2008, 03:44:21 PM
da525382 disagreed with you all over the place and responded to your post and asked for you to be gentleman enough to do the same and rebut his post.

And you so rudely dismissed it.

Which just goes to prove once again that when you visit this board you are way out of your league.

And no, I dont believe the bible in its original form is in error.. I have just been around long enough to know that any attempt at translation by humans is frought with errors..

Humans aren't near as smart as they think they are. (take you for example).


No, Da responded with " So What"  Hardley a valid response.. Would you like to try?Confused?


Quote
No, Dream, it just won't work with me.  I already broke your post down into sections, all of it, in my post, and responded in kind to each section, investing a great amount of time.  It is your turn, should you desire, to take each responsive section I have made and simply respond again in kind to it, rather than just to back-handedly be dismissive of it.  It's called discourse.  I, as I have said before, will not tolerate your own diversional nose-leading behavior, and therefore, no, as long as you refuse to engage, that will similarly be my response to you.

No.. he responded with the above and invited you to do a little work and you have ignored him so far... which is your typical pattern.
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« Reply #136 on: February 13, 2008, 04:06:40 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on February 13, 2008, 03:56:41 PM
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 13, 2008, 03:49:07 PM
Quote from: Tantor on February 13, 2008, 03:44:21 PM
da525382 disagreed with you all over the place and responded to your post and asked for you to be gentleman enough to do the same and rebut his post.

And you so rudely dismissed it.

Which just goes to prove once again that when you visit this board you are way out of your league.

And no, I dont believe the bible in its original form is in error.. I have just been around long enough to know that any attempt at translation by humans is frought with errors..

Humans aren't near as smart as they think they are. (take you for example).


No, Da responded with " So What"  Hardley a valid response.. Would you like to try?Confused?


Quote
No, Dream, it just won't work with me.  I already broke your post down into sections, all of it, in my post, and responded in kind to each section, investing a great amount of time.  It is your turn, should you desire, to take each responsive section I have made and simply respond again in kind to it, rather than just to back-handedly be dismissive of it.  It's called discourse.  I, as I have said before, will not tolerate your own diversional nose-leading behavior, and therefore, no, as long as you refuse to engage, that will similarly be my response to you.

No.. he responded with the above and invited you to do a little work and you have ignored him so far... which is your typical pattern.

Ill put you down for another "So WHAT"
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« Reply #136 on: February 13, 2008, 04:06:40 PM »
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dreamaccount2000
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« Reply #137 on: February 13, 2008, 04:25:43 PM »
Quote from: da525382 on February 13, 2008, 12:50:58 PM
First of all, Dream, thank you for finally making a declarative statement of your position, I appreciate it, that's what I have been trying to get from you this entire thread.  Now turning to your post:

Quote
Da525382 has stated that Romans 9:16-20 is proof of Iresitable grace but has failed to back it up

Whoa! Hold on just one minute.  This exchange between you and I is about one issue and one issue only: the ability of the Holy Spirit to overcome any resistance to Him by man.   I remind you that I proffered that position to you after your statement that the Holy Spirit can be resisted, with which I agreed, then you asked me for scriptures to support my proposition.  I responded that I would only begin citing one scripture at a time to test your sincerity, as in all previous correspondence here with me and with others as I see it, you do not engage, you tell people to go study or to go to a corner and answer your questions first.  I told you that would not happen with me.  And, as of this post, your controlling attempt to lead me in that direction has failed, and it always will with me.  So, in summary, let's be accurate here,  I have never attempted to prove an exhaustive doctrine of Irresistable Grace with one scriptural reference from Romans.  Such a discussion would involve dozens of scriptures to prove.  I am confronting your position that the Holy Spirit can always be resisted by man.


Lets take this one step at a time. The whole point of the discussion is does man have freewill... The doctrine I have been discussing is irresistable Grace....
So just what are you trying to prove with this passage???

You said" This exchange between you and I is about one issue and one issue only: the ability of the Holy Spirit to overcome any resistance to Him by man."

If grace is Irresitable then he cannot be resisted... The bible says that he can therefore irresitable grace is false.

This is the point of my disscussion.. Irresitable Grace... if you can prove it then feel free to go for it.. If you agree with me that Grace can be resisted and man is free to accept or reject salvation then that is fine also but the passage in Romans is not about salvation at all.
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da525382
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« Reply #138 on: February 13, 2008, 06:27:23 PM »
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 13, 2008, 03:24:18 PM
Sorry, "So what "does not cut it... I will just take it that you cannot identify what part of my psot you disagree with nor can you back up your position... Thanks

Then if you think my "so what" does not cut it, then respond as to how your original comment I said that about is relevant to that Romans 9 passage.  Gee, it's as if you had said, "hey, if you don't want to go study, then go watch the movie The Ten Commandments and see Pharoah himself portrayed in all his detailed infamy and figure it out yourself".  Your points are irrelevant to the question before you.  This is not an inquiry about Pharoah's story.  It's an inquiry about Paul's point.  He is not talking about Pharoah other than by example, he rather is talking about God's Sovereign choices in electing all of us.  You reject that scriptural reality. 

That's why most of what you insist on deflecting into the story of Pharoah amounts to "so what".   You're sitting there watching exactly what parts of your post I'm disagreeing with, I quoted every single part of your post and commented on it, there were many sequential opportunities for you to reciprocate with one rebuttal after another, to each of my comments on your post, not just to my "so what" comment.  If you wish to respond with a rebuttal comment, as most people in a discourse do, then do so, if not then, as I told you before, that's fine, then don't responsively answer anything at all, as you characteristically do anyway, of course, don't expect your applause meter to even register, either.  And most of all don't just drive your fellow conversant back into your own discussion incessantly in spite of and overlooking everything he has tried to enter a discussion with you with, it is simply a selfish act, and you're an expert at it.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 09:25:52 PM by da525382 » Logged
da525382
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« Reply #139 on: February 13, 2008, 07:27:31 PM »
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 13, 2008, 04:25:43 PM
Quote from: da525382 on February 13, 2008, 12:50:58 PM
First of all, Dream, thank you for finally making a declarative statement of your position, I appreciate it, that's what I have been trying to get from you this entire thread.  Now turning to your post:

Quote
Da525382 has stated that Romans 9:16-20 is proof of Iresitable grace but has failed to back it up

Whoa! Hold on just one minute.  This exchange between you and I is about one issue and one issue only: the ability of the Holy Spirit to overcome any resistance to Him by man.   I remind you that I proffered that position to you after your statement that the Holy Spirit can be resisted, with which I agreed, then you asked me for scriptures to support my proposition.  I responded that I would only begin citing one scripture at a time to test your sincerity, as in all previous correspondence here with me and with others as I see it, you do not engage, you tell people to go study or to go to a corner and answer your questions first.  I told you that would not happen with me.  And, as of this post, your controlling attempt to lead me in that direction has failed, and it always will with me.  So, in summary, let's be accurate here,  I have never attempted to prove an exhaustive doctrine of Irresistable Grace with one scriptural reference from Romans.  Such a discussion would involve dozens of scriptures to prove.  I am confronting your position that the Holy Spirit can always be resisted by man.


Lets take this one step at a time. The whole point of the discussion is does man have freewill... The doctrine I have been discussing is irresistable Grace....
So just what are you trying to prove with this passage???

You said" This exchange between you and I is about one issue and one issue only: the ability of the Holy Spirit to overcome any resistance to Him by man."

If grace is Irresitable then he cannot be resisted... The bible says that he can therefore irresitable grace is false.

This is the point of my disscussion.. Irresitable Grace... if you can prove it then feel free to go for it.. If you agree with me that Grace can be resisted and man is free to accept or reject salvation then that is fine also but the passage in Romans is not about salvation at all.


Dream, I will make one final response to you with this ridiculous post of yours, and then move on.  Your badgering is exquisite.  You are an exquisite expert at it, my friend.

THE ENTIRE factual basis for my interaction with you in this thread has been chronologized as follows:

It started with my response to your assertion (Reply #62 in this thread) as follows:

Quote
Quote from: da525382 on February 12, 2008, 09:25:55 AM
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 12, 2008, 08:27:49 AM
The Holy Spirit can be resisted

Of course it can, and as has been previously discussed with you repeatedly without recipocating acknowledgement from you, this is a distortion.  The doctrine you think you are discussing has nothing to do with how you actually present it in your ignorance. 

This doctrine absolutely agrees with you, that is, that the Holy Sprit can be resisted.  Of couse it can, if it cannot be resisted, then there would be no need to even discuss salvation, because all of us have resisted God, that's why we need a Saviour.  What it actually says, as I present here again to you is the following:  The Holy Spirit can be resisted indeed, however, He can and will overcome any resistance given Him as He may so choose.

There is no construction of an issue of freewill as you have just said, or a request to discuss an entire doctrine, or a challenge to you to engage in anything even close to that, by me.  It is a specific proffer about the issue of God's overcoming man's resistance to him, and it is even given to you in italics and it is profferred in response to only one statement from you that is quoted by me to initiate the post, that being: "The Holy Spirit can be resisted".  You have just revised the inaugurating basis of my discussion with you.  I really don't care how you characterize any doctrine "you have been discussing", my confrontation of you in the midst of your discussion was singularly on this issue.

Continuing:

The very next post you then presented in response to mine (Reply #66 in this thread) was to accept that challenge, it appears, because you asked me to show you scripture supporting God's overcoming man's resistance, as follows:

Quote
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 12, 2008, 09:31:46 AM
Quote from: da525382 on February 12, 2008, 09:25:55 AM
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 12, 2008, 08:27:49 AM
The Holy Spirit can be resisted

Of course it can, and as has been previously discussed with you repeatedly without recipocating acknowledgement from you, this is a distortion.  The doctrine you think you are discussing has nothing to do with how you actually present it in your ignorance. 

This doctrine absolutely agrees with you, that is, that the Holy Sprit can be resisted.  Of couse it can, if it cannot be resisted, then there would be no need to even discuss salvation, because all of us have resisted God, that's why we need a Saviour.  What it actually says, as I present here again to you is the following:  The Holy Spirit can be resisted indeed, however, He can and will overcome any resistance given Him as He may so choose.



Scripture please

Continuing:

Then, my next response to you (Reply #82 on this thread) was to set the parameters of my interaction with you, to then reference scripture as you requested, however to quote to you only one scriptural reference to see if you had the integrity to continue an engaged exchange upon it, which you have never done before with anyone here.  It was an attempt to invite you to talk, pointed and focused, in what's called a discourse or dialogue.  Here it is (referencing Hebrews 9:16-20 by mistake, intending  instead to reference Romans 9:16-20):

Quote
Quote from: da525382 on February 12, 2008, 10:22:15 AM
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 12, 2008, 09:31:46 AM
Quote from: da525382 on February 12, 2008, 09:25:55 AM
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 12, 2008, 08:27:49 AM
The Holy Spirit can be resisted

Of course it can, and as has been previously discussed with you repeatedly without recipocating acknowledgement from you, this is a distortion.  The doctrine you think you are discussing has nothing to do with how you actually present it in your ignorance. 

This doctrine absolutely agrees with you, that is, that the Holy Sprit can be resisted.  Of couse it can, if it cannot be resisted, then there would be no need to even discuss salvation, because all of us have resisted God, that's why we need a Saviour.  What it actually says, as I present here again to you is the following:  The Holy Spirit can be resisted indeed, however, He can and will overcome any resistance given Him as He may so choose.



Scripture please

Again, that has been given to you repeatedly in the past without the common decency of response from you.  I will start with one scriptural reference. Based on your responsive behavior, i.e., should you respond in consideration, I will then reciprocate in consideration by continuing the discussion with additional scriptural references:

Quote
Hebrews 9:16-20
16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God


And in spite of your insisted efforts to deflect this initiating postural foundation of my interaction with you on the issue of God's overcoming the resistance of man, you have for the most part refused characteristically to engage, you have refused to follow out in reciprocation, the issue of that very initial scriptural reference I gave you.  And that, as I have said, characterizes everything about you and your interaction on this forum.  You talk and you insult and you badger and you spin the other guy back onto your own discussion, without engaging him on what he is attempting to get you to talk about.  It is an exasporating waste of the generosity of all of those here who have tried to engage you in some kind of reasoned interchange, under a most oblivious assumption that you had at least some minimal competence and minimal consideration to reciprocate.  I am sorry for even bringing up the issue of God's overcoming of man's resistance to Him with you, my patience is now at end.  Thank you for the "exchange".  Best regards to you.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 08:22:01 PM by da525382 » Logged
segell
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« Reply #140 on: February 13, 2008, 10:44:15 PM »
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 13, 2008, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: segell on February 13, 2008, 03:48:51 PM
By the way, this just came to me when driving home today.

When it comes to salvation, I think man responds.  And the man capable of responding has had his heart pierced by Truth.

True, No matter how they respond. They may respond positive or negative.

No, not after the Holy Spirit breaks through the individual's heart of stone.  Remember the choice has already been made.  All who are not in Christ have rejected Him.  It is the piercing of a sinner's heart that enables him to respond.  And it is that piercing that is the work of God.

However, if you wish to believe that you were capable of "choosing" God on your own, then that is your choice, isn't it?
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #140 on: February 13, 2008, 10:44:15 PM »
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Mere Nick
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« Reply #141 on: February 13, 2008, 11:28:11 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on February 13, 2008, 06:57:50 AM
Quote from: Mere Nick on February 13, 2008, 06:45:44 AM
I looked at the first page of this thread and then glanced over at the flight of stairs that my youngest daughter fell down some ten years ago.  I guess I'm glad she got it over with.

If she had broken her leg or an arm or both, would you have bothered to take her to a doctor to get them fixed or would you have just ignored it hoping it would go away on its own?  Did she have a younger sister that might have succumbed to the same problem?

But more to the point.  What aspect of theology could you not make your above same statement about?

Evidently, she wasn't predestined to break a bone.
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taller, better looking and smarter . . .

They turned me loose from the nervous hospital.  Said I was well.  Mmm hmm.

Suffering for your beliefs is called faithfulness, making others suffer for your beliefs is called being a jerk.

His cross, like the ark in the wilderness, is the center around which his people are to encamp; so that they cannot separate into factions, or withdraw from each other, without retiring at the same time from the presence of the cross.
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« Reply #142 on: February 14, 2008, 07:25:49 AM »
Quote from: Mere Nick on February 13, 2008, 11:28:11 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on February 13, 2008, 06:57:50 AM
Quote from: Mere Nick on February 13, 2008, 06:45:44 AM
I looked at the first page of this thread and then glanced over at the flight of stairs that my youngest daughter fell down some ten years ago.  I guess I'm glad she got it over with.

If she had broken her leg or an arm or both, would you have bothered to take her to a doctor to get them fixed or would you have just ignored it hoping it would go away on its own?  Did she have a younger sister that might have succumbed to the same problem?

But more to the point.  What aspect of theology could you not make your above same statement about?

Evidently, she wasn't predestined to break a bone.

And if she had, you think it would have been God who broke it?  Or maybe it was just that God tripped her in the first place so that she would fall down those stairs?
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« Reply #143 on: February 14, 2008, 10:09:28 AM »
Da525382,

If grace is Irresitable then he cannot be resisted... The bible says that he can therefore irresitable grace is false.

This is the point of my disscussion.. Irresitable Grace... if you can prove it then feel free to go for it.. If you agree with me that Grace can be resisted and man is free to accept or reject salvation then that is fine also but the passage in Romans is not about salvation at all.
You cant make it say something that it does not
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dreamaccount2000
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« Reply #144 on: February 14, 2008, 10:10:28 AM »
Quote from: segell on February 13, 2008, 10:44:15 PM
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 13, 2008, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: segell on February 13, 2008, 03:48:51 PM
By the way, this just came to me when driving home today.

When it comes to salvation, I think man responds.  And the man capable of responding has had his heart pierced by Truth.

True, No matter how they respond. They may respond positive or negative.

No, not after the Holy Spirit breaks through the individual's heart of stone.  Remember the choice has already been made.  All who are not in Christ have rejected Him.  It is the piercing of a sinner's heart that enables him to respond.  And it is that piercing that is the work of God.

However, if you wish to believe that you were capable of "choosing" God on your own, then that is your choice, isn't it?

How and when does one get "in Christ" in your opinion?
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« Reply #144 on: February 14, 2008, 10:10:28 AM »
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segell
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« Reply #145 on: February 14, 2008, 11:41:35 AM »
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 14, 2008, 10:10:28 AM
Quote from: segell on February 13, 2008, 10:44:15 PM
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 13, 2008, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: segell on February 13, 2008, 03:48:51 PM
By the way, this just came to me when driving home today.

When it comes to salvation, I think man responds.  And the man capable of responding has had his heart pierced by Truth.

True, No matter how they respond. They may respond positive or negative.

No, not after the Holy Spirit breaks through the individual's heart of stone.  Remember the choice has already been made.  All who are not in Christ have rejected Him.  It is the piercing of a sinner's heart that enables him to respond.  And it is that piercing that is the work of God.

However, if you wish to believe that you were capable of "choosing" God on your own, then that is your choice, isn't it?

How and when does one get "in Christ" in your opinion?

Not going down your rabbit trails, Dream.  I asked you much earlier about your experience with Christ and you didn't respond as I recall.  If you want to tell us about your experience with the risen Savior, I'm all for it.  Otherwise, I stand on all that I have shared before (and therein you will find the answer to your question).
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #146 on: February 14, 2008, 11:47:13 AM »
Quote from: segell on February 14, 2008, 11:41:35 AM
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 14, 2008, 10:10:28 AM
Quote from: segell on February 13, 2008, 10:44:15 PM
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 13, 2008, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: segell on February 13, 2008, 03:48:51 PM
By the way, this just came to me when driving home today.

When it comes to salvation, I think man responds.  And the man capable of responding has had his heart pierced by Truth.

True, No matter how they respond. They may respond positive or negative.

No, not after the Holy Spirit breaks through the individual's heart of stone.  Remember the choice has already been made.  All who are not in Christ have rejected Him.  It is the piercing of a sinner's heart that enables him to respond.  And it is that piercing that is the work of God.

However, if you wish to believe that you were capable of "choosing" God on your own, then that is your choice, isn't it?

How and when does one get "in Christ" in your opinion?

Not going down your rabbit trails, Dream.  I asked you much earlier about your experience with Christ and you didn't respond as I recall.  If you want to tell us about your experience with the risen Savior, I'm all for it.  Otherwise, I stand on all that I have shared before (and therein you will find the answer to your question).

All about makeing statements but you dont want to answer when someone ask you to back it up.. How and when does one get "in Christ". .That is important to the discussion.

Scripture trumps personal experience
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« Reply #147 on: February 14, 2008, 11:50:22 AM »
Its real funny that this whole thread is about rejecting Freewill but the ones that claim this will not deal with the verses of scripture that plainly state that man has freewill
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« Reply #147 on: February 14, 2008, 11:50:22 AM »
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« Reply #148 on: February 14, 2008, 12:00:25 PM »
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 14, 2008, 11:50:22 AM
Its real funny that this whole thread is about rejecting Freewill but the ones that claim this will not deal with the verses of scripture that plainly state that man has freewill

Dream - do you actually live in a shell?  Your accusations are flat out false.  This whole thead isn't about "rejecting freewill" (it is interesting that you capitalized the word  Pondering).  And, man, have people dealt with you and used Scripture to boot.  You're losing all kinds of "cred" with me, my friend. 
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #149 on: February 14, 2008, 12:03:57 PM »
Quote from: segell on February 14, 2008, 12:00:25 PM
Quote from: dreamaccount2000 on February 14, 2008, 11:50:22 AM
Its real funny that this whole thread is about rejecting Freewill but the ones that claim this will not deal with the verses of scripture that plainly state that man has freewill

Dream - do you actually live in a shell?  Your accusations are flat out false.  This whole thead isn't about "rejecting freewill" (it is interesting that you capitalized the word  Pondering).  And, man, have people dealt with you and used Scripture to boot.  You're losing all kinds of "cred" with me, my friend. 
I think you better check the title of the thread
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