Free Will: Split from "The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue" thread

[Jaime]

Why would I have a high view of myself. I have accomplished nothing for myself. I just grabbed the totally free priceless life jacket that Jesus tossed me, a miserable and drowning man capable of nothing on my own. I agree totally not one of us can achieve perfection. Whether one says belief only or belief and baptism, we have to ACCEPT the free gift. If baptism is a work (I don't believe it is), then how is belief not a work? My job entails a lot of mental activity, and I defy anyone to say that I am not working because it does not require physical exertion. Therefore if my acceptance of the free gift by belief and baptism is salvation by my work, then acceptance by belief only is also salvation by my work. (mental work).

[Jaime]

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; (BELIEVERS)

but he (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 7:22  (BELIEVERS) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:24  Every one (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
Mat 7:25  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.

Mat 7:26  And every one (BELIEVERS) that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.

Every one of these examples you give is of a false believer.  These are not believers, they are hypocrites, etc..  They cannot be construed as believers in any sense of the word because of their fruit.  You simply do not believe as scripture teaches, that a believer, by definition obeys, and his fruit establishes that.  Fruit is evidence of true belief, true faith.  Faith and belief are either present or they are not.

Yes you are correct. False Believers vs Obedient True Believers. If one is purposely disobedient, (in rebellion against a commandment of Jesus) he is a false believer no matter what else is true about him. And I'm not just limiting this to baptism. If a man claims to be a believer and he refuses to help the needy, like in the example of the Good Samaritan, he is not an obedient true believer. And yes fruit is evidence of true faith.

[da525382]

I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.

You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again.  

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him.  

[da525382]

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; (BELIEVERS)

but he (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 7:22  (BELIEVERS) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:24  Every one (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
Mat 7:25  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.

Mat 7:26  And every one (BELIEVERS) that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.

Every one of these examples you give is of a false believer.  These are not believers, they are hypocrites, etc..  They cannot be construed as believers in any sense of the word because of their fruit.  You simply do not believe as scripture teaches, that a believer, by definition obeys, and his fruit establishes that.  Fruit is evidence of true belief, true faith.  Faith and belief are either present or they are not.

Yes you are correct. False Believers vs Obedient True Believers. If one is purposely disobedient, (in rebellion against a commandment of Jesus) he is a false believer no matter what else is true about him. And I'm not just limiting this to baptism. If a man claims to be a believer and he refuses to help the needy, like in the example of the Good Samaritan, he is not an obedient true believer. And yes fruit is evidence of true faith.

Your argument fails because you can never include that man in the class of "believers", those who are saved.....What is your point?  One who is purposefully disobedient is every one in the world, the non-believer.  They can never be classified as a believer, ever.  Again, EVERYONE who is a believer disobeys, willfully or not.....What is your point?

[zoonance]

man has free will.

[da525382]

Why would I have a high view of myself. I have accomplished nothing for myself. I just grabbed the totally free priceless life jacket that Jesus tossed me, a miserable and drowning man capable of nothing on my own. I agree totally not one of us can achieve perfection. Whether one says belief only or belief and baptism, we have to ACCEPT the free gift. If baptism is a work (I don't believe it is), then how is belief not a work? My job entails a lot of mental activity, and I defy anyone to say that I am not working because it does not require physical exertion. Therefore if my acceptance of the free gift by belief and baptism is salvation by my work, then acceptance by belief only is also salvation by my work. (mental work).

Because belief, our faith, has never been a work since the beginning of time, Old Testament or New.  It is from God and always has been.

[da525382]

man has free will.

Nope.

[zoonance]

man has free will.

Nope.

yep

[Jaime]

man has free will.

Nope.

Yep

[Jaime]

I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.

You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again.  

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him.  

You sure are dogmatic for a guy that apparently hates my dogmatic ways.

BTW, man has free will or God is unjust if anyone is going to hell, and I believe there will be many entering into the wide gate. (by choice)

[da525382]

I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.

You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again.  

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him.  

You sure are dogmatic for a guy that apparently hates my dogmatic ways.

BTW, man has free will or God is unjust if anyone is going to hell.

Please quit misconstuing me.  I don't care about your dogmatic ways, let alone hate them.
Man does not have free will and God is never unjust.

[Jaime]

I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.

You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again.  

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him.  

You sure are dogmatic for a guy that apparently hates my dogmatic ways.

BTW, man has free will or God is unjust if anyone is going to hell.

Please quit misconstuing me.  I don't care about your dogmatic ways, let alone hate them.
Man does not have free will and God is never unjust.

If we have no free will, anyone in hell will have to be there because of God's soverignty. If that ain't unjust I don't know what is. God has predestined us all to salvation, but not all will take that path. Wide vs. Narrow, ya know. Every acorn on an oak tree is predestined to become another oak tree, but not everyone of them will.

BTW, like Senator Ernest Hollings used to say, "There's a whole lot of mis-construing goin' on round here!"

[da525382]

I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.

You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again.  

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him.  

You sure are dogmatic for a guy that apparently hates my dogmatic ways.

BTW, man has free will or God is unjust if anyone is going to hell.

Please quit misconstuing me.  I don't care about your dogmatic ways, let alone hate them.
Man does not have free will and God is never unjust.

If we have no free will, anyone in hell will have to be there because of God's soverignty. If that ain't unjust I don't know what is. God has predestined us all to salvation, but not all will take that path. Wide vs. Narrow, ya know. Every acorn on an oak tree is predestined to become another oak tree, but not everyone of them will.

The problem with your logic is that if God predestined everyone to be saved, then everyone would be saved and they are not and have not since the beginning of time.  Otherwise, you make man the determiner of God's own will.   God knew that not all would be saved from the beginning, otherwise there would absolutely be no need for the creation of hell.  As a matter of fact, yes, most everyone on the face of the earth now and in world history has taken the wide path, those who believe are a remnant throughout all time.

[zoonance]

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; (BELIEVERS)

but he (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 7:22  (BELIEVERS) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:24  Every one (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
Mat 7:25  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.

Mat 7:26  And every one (BELIEVERS) that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.

Every one of these examples you give is of a false believer.  These are not believers, they are hypocrites, etc..  They cannot be construed as believers in any sense of the word because of their fruit.  You simply do not believe as scripture teaches, that a believer, by definition obeys, and his fruit establishes that.  Fruit is evidence of true belief, true faith.  Faith and belief are either present or they are not.

Yes you are correct. False Believers vs Obedient True Believers. If one is purposely disobedient, (in rebellion against a commandment of Jesus) he is a false believer no matter what else is true about him. And I'm not just limiting this to baptism. If a man claims to be a believer and he refuses to help the needy, like in the example of the Good Samaritan, he is not an obedient true believer. And yes fruit is evidence of true faith.

Your argument fails because you can never include that man in the class of "believers", those who are saved.....What is your point?  One who is purposefully disobedient is every one in the world, the non-believer.  They can never be classified as a believer, ever.  Again, EVERYONE who is a believer disobeys, willfully or not.....What is your point?

obedience is free will in action.  However, the bible reveals believers that willfully sinned.  They were not recategorized as being fakes.   But, repentance was demanded (free will again) in order to be in fellowship.

[zoonance]

I suppose free will is involved in choosing to read or not to read the Spiritual Sword, the outstanding subject of this thread.