Free Will: Split from "The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue" thread

[Jaime]

Of course God is sovereign and knows all. Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundations of the world. Why? Because God knew that Adam and Eve would screw it up for everyone, and we would need a way for God to reconcile us back to him.

God exists in the past, present and future simultaneously. I don't understand that, but that accounts for him knowing all, right?

Adam and Eve had a choice and they made it. Yes God knew what they would choose and when because he had seen it happen in the future, before it happened in their present.

Mankind trying to understand God is like a one dimensional straight line trying to explain a three dimensional figure like a sphere.
 

[Hobbit]

Why would I have a high view of myself. I have accomplished nothing for myself. I just grabbed the totally free priceless life jacket that Jesus tossed me, a miserable and drowning man capable of nothing on my own. I agree totally not one of us can achieve perfection. Whether one says belief only or belief and baptism, we have to ACCEPT the free gift. If baptism is a work (I don't believe it is), then how is belief not a work? My job entails a lot of mental activity, and I defy anyone to say that I am not working because it does not require physical exertion. Therefore if my acceptance of the free gift by belief and baptism is salvation by my work, then acceptance by belief only is also salvation by my work. (mental work).

1.Would not reaching for the lifesaver constitute a"work"? Afterall (apart from your action) you would have perished beneath the waves!

2.The Bible does not teach that the natural man is able to believe spiritual truth. Quite the opposite...1 Cor:214-16 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Hobbit

[Jaime]

Why would I have a high view of myself. I have accomplished nothing for myself. I just grabbed the totally free priceless life jacket that Jesus tossed me, a miserable and drowning man capable of nothing on my own. I agree totally not one of us can achieve perfection. Whether one says belief only or belief and baptism, we have to ACCEPT the free gift. If baptism is a work (I don't believe it is), then how is belief not a work? My job entails a lot of mental activity, and I defy anyone to say that I am not working because it does not require physical exertion. Therefore if my acceptance of the free gift by belief and baptism is salvation by my work, then acceptance by belief only is also salvation by my work. (mental work).

1.Would not reaching for the lifesaver constitute a"work"? Afterall (apart from your action) you would have perished beneath the waves!

Not in the sense of saving ourselves. Same is true with the Gospel. We have to accept the free gift or it avails us nothing. If not universal salvation would be what we are talking about.

If reaching for the life jacket is work of salvation, so to speak, then the mental activity to engage the arms and fingers is a work also.

2.The Bible does not teach that the natural man is able to believe spiritual truth. Quite the opposite...1 Cor:214-16 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

I believe that the Holy Spirit works to draw (natural) men to God. This would be the concept of prevenient grace. Grace available before we knew we needed it. The Holy Spirit's wooing us, if you will. Yet man can reject the wooing or drawing of the Holy Spirit, I believe. That would constitute Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 12:31  Therefore I say unto you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

[da525382]

We are not disabled in sin, we are dead in sin.  We aren't bobbing around trying to reach out for anything.  Dead people do not and of course, cannot do that.  Spiritual death has no power to reach out and "gain" spiritual life.  We are "quickened" in our death and empowered to believe. That quickening is by the Holy Spirit.  It is He who triggers or enables all of our responses to the gospel.

[Jaime]

We are not disabled in sin, we are dead in sin.  We aren't bobbing around trying to reach out for anything.  Dead people do not and of course, cannot do that.  Spiritual death has no power to reach out and "gain" spiritual life.  We are "quickened" in our death and empowered to believe. That quickening is by the Holy Spirit.  It is He who triggers or enables all of our responses to the gospel.

I'm glad you see we do respond to the gospel. That's all I am saying and have said. We respond. Without our response we are not saved. Does that save us, NO! We can blaspheme the holy spirit and REJECT.

[da525382]

We are not disabled in sin, we are dead in sin.  We aren't bobbing around trying to reach out for anything.  Dead people do not and of course, cannot do that.  Spiritual death has no power to reach out and "gain" spiritual life.  We are "quickened" in our death and empowered to believe. That quickening is by the Holy Spirit.  It is He who triggers or enables all of our responses to the gospel.

I'm glad you see we do respond to the gospel. That's all I am saying and have said. We respond. Without our response we are not saved. Does that save us, NO! We can blaspheme the holy spirit and REJECT.

Of course we respond to the gospel.  Who here has said we do not?  My comment reaches to God Himself, as I believe scripture teaches our salvation begins there, not with our self-generated decision.  I distinguish between a decision wholly generated from and in man versus a decision inspired and ordained by God, bringing us to an enabling state from death, enabling us to decide. which, I clearly understand, you do not believe, and that is fine.  That is the distinction I am trying to make between what I and you are saying, that's all.

[Jaime]

We are not disabled in sin, we are dead in sin.  We aren't bobbing around trying to reach out for anything.  Dead people do not and of course, cannot do that.  Spiritual death has no power to reach out and "gain" spiritual life.  We are "quickened" in our death and empowered to believe. That quickening is by the Holy Spirit.  It is He who triggers or enables all of our responses to the gospel.

I'm glad you see we do respond to the gospel. That's all I am saying and have said. We respond. Without our response we are not saved. Does that save us, NO! We can blaspheme the holy spirit and REJECT.

Of course we respond to the gospel.  Who here has said we do not?  My comment reaches to God Himself, as I believe scripture teaches our salvation begins there, not with our decision.  I distinguish between a decision wholly generated from and in man versus a decision inspired and ordained by God, which, I clearly understand, you do not believe, and that is fine.  That is the distinction I am trying to make between what I and you are saying, that's all.

I do believe it is BOTH! inspired and ordained by God, Prevenient Grace (the wooing or drawing by God), if you will, AND Free will by man to reject. If we had no free will to reject, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would not be a possibility and a waste of time for Jesus to mention it as the only unforgivable sin.

BTW, Robert Pate has argued for pages with me that we do not respond to the gospel.

[da525382]

We are not disabled in sin, we are dead in sin.  We aren't bobbing around trying to reach out for anything.  Dead people do not and of course, cannot do that.  Spiritual death has no power to reach out and "gain" spiritual life.  We are "quickened" in our death and empowered to believe. That quickening is by the Holy Spirit.  It is He who triggers or enables all of our responses to the gospel.

I'm glad you see we do respond to the gospel. That's all I am saying and have said. We respond. Without our response we are not saved. Does that save us, NO! We can blaspheme the holy spirit and REJECT.

Of course we respond to the gospel.  Who here has said we do not?  My comment reaches to God Himself, as I believe scripture teaches our salvation begins there, not with our decision.  I distinguish between a decision wholly generated from and in man versus a decision inspired and ordained by God, which, I clearly understand, you do not believe, and that is fine.  That is the distinction I am trying to make between what I and you are saying, that's all.

I do believe it is Both inspired and ordained by God, Prevenient Grace (the wooing or drawing by God), if you will, AND Free will by man to reject. If we had no free will to reject, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would not be a possibility and a waste of time for Jesus to mention it as the only unforgivable sin.

BTW, Robert Pate has argued for pages with me that we do not respond to the gospel.

What Robert Pate believes is what he believes.  As for myself, again, I believe scripture allows choice, but that that choice is at the same time ordained.....that is, our will is not free or independent of God.  Our "free" choice exists at the same time as an ordained choice, because it is He who has chosen us first, before we even think about choosing Him.  That is what I believe scripture quite clearly presents.  Is it for us to understand?  Not really.  Is it for us to accept?  I, myself, simply believe so.  Those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit have never truly chosen Him to begin with, neither were they chosen by Him

[Jaime]

We are not disabled in sin, we are dead in sin.  We aren't bobbing around trying to reach out for anything.  Dead people do not and of course, cannot do that.  Spiritual death has no power to reach out and "gain" spiritual life.  We are "quickened" in our death and empowered to believe. That quickening is by the Holy Spirit.  It is He who triggers or enables all of our responses to the gospel.

I'm glad you see we do respond to the gospel. That's all I am saying and have said. We respond. Without our response we are not saved. Does that save us, NO! We can blaspheme the holy spirit and REJECT.

Of course we respond to the gospel.  Who here has said we do not?  My comment reaches to God Himself, as I believe scripture teaches our salvation begins there, not with our decision.  I distinguish between a decision wholly generated from and in man versus a decision inspired and ordained by God, which, I clearly understand, you do not believe, and that is fine.  That is the distinction I am trying to make between what I and you are saying, that's all.

I do believe it is Both inspired and ordained by God, Prevenient Grace (the wooing or drawing by God), if you will, AND Free will by man to reject. If we had no free will to reject, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would not be a possibility and a waste of time for Jesus to mention it as the only unforgivable sin.

BTW, Robert Pate has argued for pages with me that we do not respond to the gospel.

What Robert Pate believes is what he believes.  As for myself, again, I believe scripture allows choice, but that that choice is at the same time ordained.....that is, our will is not free or independent of God.  Our "free" choice exists at the same time as an ordained choice, because it is He who has chosen us first, before we even think about choosing Him.  That is what I believe scripture quite clearly presents.  Is it for us to understand?  Not really.  Is it for us to accept?  I, myself, simply believe so.  Those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit have never truly chosen Him to begin with, neither were they chosen by Him

Very good points Don. I commend you and consider you as a brother.

I do think back about the rich young ruler that Jesus encountered. He was searching for eternal life, and I'm sure at the drawing of the Holy Spirit, but he weighed the cost and rejected Jesus.

Luk 18:18  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, even God.
Luk 18:20  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother.
Luk 18:21  And he said, All these things have I observed from my youth up.
Luk 18:22  And when Jesus heard it, he said unto him, One thing thou lackest yet: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luk 18:23  But when he heard these things, he became exceeding sorrowful; for he was very rich.

[da525382]

We are not disabled in sin, we are dead in sin.  We aren't bobbing around trying to reach out for anything.  Dead people do not and of course, cannot do that.  Spiritual death has no power to reach out and "gain" spiritual life.  We are "quickened" in our death and empowered to believe. That quickening is by the Holy Spirit.  It is He who triggers or enables all of our responses to the gospel.

I'm glad you see we do respond to the gospel. That's all I am saying and have said. We respond. Without our response we are not saved. Does that save us, NO! We can blaspheme the holy spirit and REJECT.

Of course we respond to the gospel.  Who here has said we do not?  My comment reaches to God Himself, as I believe scripture teaches our salvation begins there, not with our decision.  I distinguish between a decision wholly generated from and in man versus a decision inspired and ordained by God, which, I clearly understand, you do not believe, and that is fine.  That is the distinction I am trying to make between what I and you are saying, that's all.

I do believe it is Both inspired and ordained by God, Prevenient Grace (the wooing or drawing by God), if you will, AND Free will by man to reject. If we had no free will to reject, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would not be a possibility and a waste of time for Jesus to mention it as the only unforgivable sin.

BTW, Robert Pate has argued for pages with me that we do not respond to the gospel.

What Robert Pate believes is what he believes.  As for myself, again, I believe scripture allows choice, but that that choice is at the same time ordained.....that is, our will is not free or independent of God.  Our "free" choice exists at the same time as an ordained choice, because it is He who has chosen us first, before we even think about choosing Him.  That is what I believe scripture quite clearly presents.  Is it for us to understand?  Not really.  Is it for us to accept?  I, myself, simply believe so.  Those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit have never truly chosen Him to begin with, neither were they chosen by Him

Very good points Don. I commend you and consider you as a brother.

I do think back about the rich young ruler that Jesus encountered. He was searching for eternal life, and I'm sure at the drawing of the Holy Spirit, but he weighed the cost and rejected Jesus.

Luk 18:18  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, even God.
Luk 18:20  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother.
Luk 18:21  And he said, All these things have I observed from my youth up.
Luk 18:22  And when Jesus heard it, he said unto him, One thing thou lackest yet: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luk 18:23  But when he heard these things, he became exceeding sorrowful; for he was very rich.

Thank you for the compliment.  My only comment about the rich young ruler, as distinguished from your interpretation, was that Christ knew he coveted his riches before he even talked to him and Christ knew exactly the choice he would make.  I, however, again realize you do not see it this way at all, and again, I say, that is fine.

[Jaime]

I agree wholeheartedly about what you said about the rich young ruler. Yes he coveted his riches and in my opinion was probably only interested in eternal life as he knew it on earth, since he was so rich.

It was probably not the best example to use to support Free Will but it did come to mind. (In a Holy Spirit kind of nudging!)

 

I really don't think we are that far apart, Don. Again semantics and perspective is huge in religion and politics. That's why those two topics are always so devisive.

We are hopeless without the Holy Spirit drawing us to Christ. I guess our main difference now is that I believe one can reject the Holy Spirit's drawing.

[da525382]

I agree wholeheartedly about what you said about the rich young ruler. Yes he coveted his riches and in my opinion was probably only interested in eternal life as he knew it on earth, since he was so rich.

It was probably not the best example to use to support Free Will but it did come to mind. (In a Holy Spirit kind of nudging!)

 

I really don't think we are that far apart, Don. Again semantics and perspective is huge in religion and politics. That's why those two topics are always so devisive.

We are hopeless without the Holy Spirit drawing us to Christ. I guess our main difference now is that I believe one can reject the Holy Spirit's drawing.

That's fine....and again, my difference simply is that the Holy Spirit draws, Jesus wills those who will come to him, the Father gives them to Him.  It is all a move of God, not simply a  response of man completely free and independent of God, and it is a move of God we will never completely understand with our feeble minds........therefore, this move of God upon man for his salvation is irresistable, for what He purposes, He completes.  I do not in any way condemn you for your believing it is not.

[Jaime]

We are in agreement on everything but the irresistable part.

Act 26:27  King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
Act 26:28  Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost, thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

This is kind of another topic, but I believe a person can reject or even fall away because of the following:

Heb 6:4  For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5  and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6  and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Also a passage out of the Gospel of John is interesting:

Joh 1:11  He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not.
Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name

[Harold]

Did God believe for Abraham?

FTL

God so loved the world that He gave His Son so all who believe in Him would not perish. The world was Spiritually dead, Jesus came to bring life. God loved the whole world, how come He did not quicken the whole world. You make God a respecter of persons.

[da525382]

We are in agreement on everything but the irresistable part.

I know.

Act 26:27  King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
Act 26:28  Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost, thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Again, this is simply a distinguishing interpretation you and I have.  My interpretation of this via the rest of scripture is that Agrippa could never be persuaded by Paul or anyone else to be a Christian unless God granted that to happen in the first place.
 

This is kind of another topic, but I believe a person can reject or even fall away because of the following:

Heb 6:4  For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5  and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6  and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Again, your interpretion and mine are the opposite here.  I believe scripturally that this passage does not refer to one who is truly a believer and therefore truly saved.  That would probably take an entire thread to pursue and work through.  Again, what you believe is fine. 

Also a passage out of the Gospel of John is interesting:

Joh 1:11  He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not.
Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name

Again, those who received him via believing in and on Him are, as I see in scripture, given to Him by the Father, and this passage does not contradict that.