Author Topic: Free Will: Split from "The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue" thread  (Read 16243 times)

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Offline Jaime

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Why would I have a high view of myself. I have accomplished nothing for myself. I just grabbed the totally free priceless life jacket that Jesus tossed me, a miserable and drowning man capable of nothing on my own. I agree totally not one of us can achieve perfection. Whether one says belief only or belief and baptism, we have to ACCEPT the free gift. If baptism is a work (I don't believe it is), then how is belief not a work? My job entails a lot of mental activity, and I defy anyone to say that I am not working because it does not require physical exertion. Therefore if my acceptance of the free gift by belief and baptism is salvation by my work, then acceptance by belief only is also salvation by my work. (mental work).

« Last Edit: Sat Nov 03, 2007 - 18:22:08 by Gary »

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #1 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 11:57:07 »

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; (BELIEVERS)

but he (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 7:22  (BELIEVERS) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:24  Every one (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
Mat 7:25  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.

Mat 7:26  And every one (BELIEVERS) that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.



Every one of these examples you give is of a false believer.  These are not believers, they are hypocrites, etc..  They cannot be construed as believers in any sense of the word because of their fruit.  You simply do not believe as scripture teaches, that a believer, by definition obeys, and his fruit establishes that.  Fruit is evidence of true belief, true faith.  Faith and belief are either present or they are not.

Yes you are correct. False Believers vs Obedient True Believers. If one is purposely disobedient, (in rebellion against a commandment of Jesus) he is a false believer no matter what else is true about him. And I'm not just limiting this to baptism. If a man claims to be a believer and he refuses to help the needy, like in the example of the Good Samaritan, he is not an obedient true believer. And yes fruit is evidence of true faith.

da525382

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #2 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 11:57:54 »
I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.


You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again.  

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him.  

da525382

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #3 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:02:02 »

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; (BELIEVERS)

but he (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 7:22  (BELIEVERS) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:24  Every one (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
Mat 7:25  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.

Mat 7:26  And every one (BELIEVERS) that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.



Every one of these examples you give is of a false believer.  These are not believers, they are hypocrites, etc..  They cannot be construed as believers in any sense of the word because of their fruit.  You simply do not believe as scripture teaches, that a believer, by definition obeys, and his fruit establishes that.  Fruit is evidence of true belief, true faith.  Faith and belief are either present or they are not.

Yes you are correct. False Believers vs Obedient True Believers. If one is purposely disobedient, (in rebellion against a commandment of Jesus) he is a false believer no matter what else is true about him. And I'm not just limiting this to baptism. If a man claims to be a believer and he refuses to help the needy, like in the example of the Good Samaritan, he is not an obedient true believer. And yes fruit is evidence of true faith.

Your argument fails because you can never include that man in the class of "believers", those who are saved.....What is your point?  One who is purposefully disobedient is every one in the world, the non-believer.  They can never be classified as a believer, ever.  Again, EVERYONE who is a believer disobeys, willfully or not.....What is your point?

Offline zoonance

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #4 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:03:07 »
man has free will.

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #4 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:03:07 »



da525382

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #5 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:03:22 »
Why would I have a high view of myself. I have accomplished nothing for myself. I just grabbed the totally free priceless life jacket that Jesus tossed me, a miserable and drowning man capable of nothing on my own. I agree totally not one of us can achieve perfection. Whether one says belief only or belief and baptism, we have to ACCEPT the free gift. If baptism is a work (I don't believe it is), then how is belief not a work? My job entails a lot of mental activity, and I defy anyone to say that I am not working because it does not require physical exertion. Therefore if my acceptance of the free gift by belief and baptism is salvation by my work, then acceptance by belief only is also salvation by my work. (mental work).



Because belief, our faith, has never been a work since the beginning of time, Old Testament or New.  It is from God and always has been.

da525382

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #6 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:04:56 »

Offline zoonance

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Offline Jaime

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Offline Jaime

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #9 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:19:08 »
I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.


You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again.  

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him.  


You sure are dogmatic for a guy that apparently hates my dogmatic ways.

BTW, man has free will or God is unjust if anyone is going to hell, and I believe there will be many entering into the wide gate. (by choice)

da525382

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #10 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:20:29 »
I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.


You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again.  

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him.  


You sure are dogmatic for a guy that apparently hates my dogmatic ways.

BTW, man has free will or God is unjust if anyone is going to hell.


Please quit misconstuing me.  I don't care about your dogmatic ways, let alone hate them.
Man does not have free will and God is never unjust.

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #11 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:25:31 »
I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.


You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again.  

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him.  


You sure are dogmatic for a guy that apparently hates my dogmatic ways.

BTW, man has free will or God is unjust if anyone is going to hell.


Please quit misconstuing me.  I don't care about your dogmatic ways, let alone hate them.
Man does not have free will and God is never unjust.


If we have no free will, anyone in hell will have to be there because of God's soverignty. If that ain't unjust I don't know what is. God has predestined us all to salvation, but not all will take that path. Wide vs. Narrow, ya know. Every acorn on an oak tree is predestined to become another oak tree, but not everyone of them will.

BTW, like Senator Ernest Hollings used to say, "There's a whole lot of mis-construing goin' on round here!"

da525382

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #12 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:28:55 »
I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.


You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again.  

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him.  


You sure are dogmatic for a guy that apparently hates my dogmatic ways.

BTW, man has free will or God is unjust if anyone is going to hell.


Please quit misconstuing me.  I don't care about your dogmatic ways, let alone hate them.
Man does not have free will and God is never unjust.


If we have no free will, anyone in hell will have to be there because of God's soverignty. If that ain't unjust I don't know what is. God has predestined us all to salvation, but not all will take that path. Wide vs. Narrow, ya know. Every acorn on an oak tree is predestined to become another oak tree, but not everyone of them will.


The problem with your logic is that if God predestined everyone to be saved, then everyone would be saved and they are not and have not since the beginning of time.  Otherwise, you make man the determiner of God's own will.   God knew that not all would be saved from the beginning, otherwise there would absolutely be no need for the creation of hell.  As a matter of fact, yes, most everyone on the face of the earth now and in world history has taken the wide path, those who believe are a remnant throughout all time.

Offline zoonance

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #13 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:29:50 »

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; (BELIEVERS)

but he (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 7:22  (BELIEVERS) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:24  Every one (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
Mat 7:25  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.

Mat 7:26  And every one (BELIEVERS) that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.



Every one of these examples you give is of a false believer.  These are not believers, they are hypocrites, etc..  They cannot be construed as believers in any sense of the word because of their fruit.  You simply do not believe as scripture teaches, that a believer, by definition obeys, and his fruit establishes that.  Fruit is evidence of true belief, true faith.  Faith and belief are either present or they are not.

Yes you are correct. False Believers vs Obedient True Believers. If one is purposely disobedient, (in rebellion against a commandment of Jesus) he is a false believer no matter what else is true about him. And I'm not just limiting this to baptism. If a man claims to be a believer and he refuses to help the needy, like in the example of the Good Samaritan, he is not an obedient true believer. And yes fruit is evidence of true faith.

Your argument fails because you can never include that man in the class of "believers", those who are saved.....What is your point?  One who is purposefully disobedient is every one in the world, the non-believer.  They can never be classified as a believer, ever.  Again, EVERYONE who is a believer disobeys, willfully or not.....What is your point?



obedience is free will in action.  However, the bible reveals believers that willfully sinned.  They were not recategorized as being fakes.   But, repentance was demanded (free will again) in order to be in fellowship.

Offline zoonance

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #14 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:31:45 »
I suppose free will is involved in choosing to read or not to read the Spiritual Sword, the outstanding subject of this thread.

da525382

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #15 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:32:05 »

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; (BELIEVERS)

but he (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 7:22  (BELIEVERS) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:24  Every one (OBEDIENT BELIEVERS) therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
Mat 7:25  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.

Mat 7:26  And every one (BELIEVERS) that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27  and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.



Every one of these examples you give is of a false believer.  These are not believers, they are hypocrites, etc..  They cannot be construed as believers in any sense of the word because of their fruit.  You simply do not believe as scripture teaches, that a believer, by definition obeys, and his fruit establishes that.  Fruit is evidence of true belief, true faith.  Faith and belief are either present or they are not.

Yes you are correct. False Believers vs Obedient True Believers. If one is purposely disobedient, (in rebellion against a commandment of Jesus) he is a false believer no matter what else is true about him. And I'm not just limiting this to baptism. If a man claims to be a believer and he refuses to help the needy, like in the example of the Good Samaritan, he is not an obedient true believer. And yes fruit is evidence of true faith.

Your argument fails because you can never include that man in the class of "believers", those who are saved.....What is your point?  One who is purposefully disobedient is every one in the world, the non-believer.  They can never be classified as a believer, ever.  Again, EVERYONE who is a believer disobeys, willfully or not.....What is your point?



obedience is free will in action.  However, the bible reveals believers that willfully sinned.  They were not recategorized as being fakes.   But, repentance was demanded (free will again) in order to be in fellowship.

The obedient of God, those who believe, are those who are truly free.  Repentance is demanded of everyone all the time, the non-believer and the believer.  In fact, the believer is the repentant of God, his entire life is changed to a life of repentance by and through the granting and grace of God.

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #16 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:34:13 »
I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.


You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again.  

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him.  


You sure are dogmatic for a guy that apparently hates my dogmatic ways.

BTW, man has free will or God is unjust if anyone is going to hell.


Please quit misconstuing me.  I don't care about your dogmatic ways, let alone hate them.
Man does not have free will and God is never unjust.


If we have no free will, anyone in hell will have to be there because of God's soverignty. If that ain't unjust I don't know what is. God has predestined us all to salvation, but not all will take that path. Wide vs. Narrow, ya know. Every acorn on an oak tree is predestined to become another oak tree, but not everyone of them will.


The problem with your logic is that if God predestined everyone to be saved, then everyone would be saved and they are not and have not since the beginning of time.  Otherwise, you make man the determiner of God's own will.   God knew that not all would be saved from the beginning, otherwise there would absolutely be no need for the creation of hell.  As a matter of fact, yes, most everyone on the face of the earth now and in world history has taken the wide path, those who believe are a remnant throughout all time.


Your last sentence screams "Free Will"..... taken the wide path, ...........those who believe......

If there is no free will, why 2 paths?

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #17 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:34:51 »
I suppose free will is involved in choosing to read or not to read the Spiritual Sword, the outstanding subject of this thread.

Man has a volition, however it is never "free" of or outside of God.  God directs the steps of everyman and maintains his creation and universe always.

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #18 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:37:15 »
Your last sentence screams "Free Will"..... taken the wide path, ...........those who believe......

If there is no free will, why 2 paths?

With your logic, there is only one path, or God is impotent.  You argue He wills all to be saved, yet nothing God has ever decided or set out to do has been thwarted by any principality or power, for it is His own characteristic that He accomplishes all His purposes.
While He may desire life for all of mankind, He knows and has always known that not all would be saved, and He has always chosen a remnant.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:47:25 by da525382 »

Offline zoonance

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #19 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:38:04 »
So he has a volition will?       Same point.      He/she can choose.   Otherwise, it ain't anybody's fault.

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #20 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:40:03 »
So he has a volition will?       Same point.      He/she can choose.   Otherwise, it ain't anybody's fault.

Scripturally, man chooses all the time, God directs everything and all of man's steps.  He is never "free" of the God of the universe, otherwise you have just set him up as equal to God.  For example, you may want to go to the store to buy Thousand Island dressing for your salad, you freely choose that's the dressing you want....however, when you go to the store, you find the only thing sold in every aisle and every shelf is Thousand Island dressing.  Sure you had a free choice.

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #21 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 12:49:59 »
Your last sentence screams "Free Will"..... taken the wide path, ...........those who believe......

If there is no free will, why 2 paths?

With your logic, there is only one path, or God is impotent.  You argue He wills all to be saved, yet nothing God has ever decided or set out to do has been thwarted by any principality or power, for it is His own characteristic that He accomplishes all His purposes.
While He may desire life for all of mankind, He knows and has always known that not all would be saved

I am only espousing Paul's recollection of God's will:

Quote
1Ti 2:3  This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4  who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

With this scripture evidence, not my own logic, God wills all of us to be saved, but yes there are 2 paths the wide and narrow. Hence free will. But yes God want's all to be saved. But of course not all will......because of God? NOOOOO. Because of the free will choice he has given us because without free will we can not show him love. Without free will we cannot love.

Ever since the Garden of Eden, man (and woman) has had free will. He demonstrated that by eating the forbidden fruit. God didn't need mindless robots to gather around him. He created us to love him and without freewill, that is not possible.

That is what is so powerful about Christ's love for us. He showed it by WILLINGLY going to the cross and dying for us. Yes his sacrifice was beyond belief even if you discount the fact that he had the choice and he chose to go through with it. But willfully crawling up on that cross beam and submitting to the agony of the nails is love beyond my comprehension

As much as we may dislike it, our children have free will to a certain extent to obey us or not. The fact that they have the choice and choose to obey IS what love is.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 15:26:00 by Jaime »

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #22 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 15:45:12 »
Please tell me this thread hasn't degenerated into a thread about whether man has free will.  If it has, I will prove this once and for all by exercising mine and not opening this thread again.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 15:58:33 by marc »

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #23 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 15:52:52 »
Please tell me this thread hasn't degenerated into a thread about whether man has free will.  If it has, I will prove this once and for all by exercizing mine and not opening this thread again.

Thank you, I rest my case.  ::tippinghat::

It only took 14 pages to degenerate to this point.

Must be bad, 'cause Okimar and Mistergus have flown the coop on this thread.   ::lookaround::

« Last Edit: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 16:17:11 by Jaime »

da525382

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #24 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 16:20:21 »
Your last sentence screams "Free Will"..... taken the wide path, ...........those who believe......

If there is no free will, why 2 paths?

With your logic, there is only one path, or God is impotent.  You argue He wills all to be saved, yet nothing God has ever decided or set out to do has been thwarted by any principality or power, for it is His own characteristic that He accomplishes all His purposes.
While He may desire life for all of mankind, He knows and has always known that not all would be saved

I am only espousing Paul's recollection of God's will:

Quote
1Ti 2:3  This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4  who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

With this scripture evidence, not my own logic, God wills all of us to be saved, but yes there are 2 paths the wide and narrow. Hence free will. But yes God want's all to be saved. But of course not all will......because of God? NOOOOO. Because of the free will choice he has given us because without free will we can not show him love. Without free will we cannot love.

Ever since the Garden of Eden, man (and woman) has had free will. He demonstrated that by eating the forbidden fruit. God didn't need mindless robots to gather around him. He created us to love him and without freewill, that is not possible.

That is what is so powerful about Christ's love for us. He showed it by WILLINGLY going to the cross and dying for us. Yes his sacrifice was beyond belief even if you discount the fact that he had the choice and he chose to go through with it. But willfully crawling up on that cross beam and submitting to the agony of the nails is love beyond my comprehension

As much as we may dislike it, our children have free will to a certain extent to obey us or not. The fact that they have the choice and choose to obey IS what love is.


That God desires all men be saved is not in dispute.  God never wanted any man to sin to begin with.  Never.  Man is called to come, yet no man will come to the Father except the Son provides that it happen, and no one will come to the Son except the Father provides that it happen.  These realities are always at tension in scripture, they coexist.

The only beings that had the closest thing that you define as free will were Adam and Eve, they were neutral, amoral beings, they had neither a predilection for good nor evil in a pre-fall creation.  No one since has ever been born that way, no one.

Your children do not have free will to obey you or not, I note you even say "to a certain extent".  They will disobey you, it is predictable.  They do not have the power within themselves to not disobey you.  No child has ever done that except the Son of God.

One cannot know love unless he understands how diametrically separated he is from God, that he is nothing, that God is everything.  That understanding leading to surrendering, giving it up, is whereby love is truly understood, because it is God that gives that understanding.

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #25 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 16:27:28 »
Your last sentence screams "Free Will"..... taken the wide path, ...........those who believe......

If there is no free will, why 2 paths?

With your logic, there is only one path, or God is impotent.  You argue He wills all to be saved, yet nothing God has ever decided or set out to do has been thwarted by any principality or power, for it is His own characteristic that He accomplishes all His purposes.
While He may desire life for all of mankind, He knows and has always known that not all would be saved

I am only espousing Paul's recollection of God's will:

Quote
1Ti 2:3  This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4  who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

With this scripture evidence, not my own logic, God wills all of us to be saved, but yes there are 2 paths the wide and narrow. Hence free will. But yes God want's all to be saved. But of course not all will......because of God? NOOOOO. Because of the free will choice he has given us because without free will we can not show him love. Without free will we cannot love.

Ever since the Garden of Eden, man (and woman) has had free will. He demonstrated that by eating the forbidden fruit. God didn't need mindless robots to gather around him. He created us to love him and without freewill, that is not possible.

That is what is so powerful about Christ's love for us. He showed it by WILLINGLY going to the cross and dying for us. Yes his sacrifice was beyond belief even if you discount the fact that he had the choice and he chose to go through with it. But willfully crawling up on that cross beam and submitting to the agony of the nails is love beyond my comprehension

As much as we may dislike it, our children have free will to a certain extent to obey us or not. The fact that they have the choice and choose to obey IS what love is.


That God desires all men be saved is not in dispute.  God never wanted any man to sin to begin with.  Never.  Man is called to come, yet no man will come to the Father except the Son provides that it happen, and no one will come to the Son except the Father provides that it happen.  These realities are always at tension in scripture, they coexist.

The only beings that had the closest thing that you define as free will were Adam and Eve, they were neutral, amoral beings, they had neither a predilection for good nor evil in a pre-fall creation.  No one since has ever been born that way, no one.

Your children do not have free will to obey you or not, I note you even say "to a certain extent".  They will disobey you, it is predictable.  They do not have the power within themselves to not disobey you.  No child has ever done that except the Son of God.

One cannot know love unless he understands how diametrically separated he is from God, that he is nothing, that God is everything.  That understanding leading to surrendering, giving it up, is whereby love is truly understood, because it is God that gives that understanding.

OK Don, you have the last word...........Please

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #26 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 16:29:55 »
The sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man working together in salvation is something that has been discussed by sages for ages.  One of the most enlighening passages on this occurred after Paul and Barnabas spoke the gospel in Pisidian Antioch.  We read that there were some who repudiated the good news and did not judge themselves worth of eternal life (Acts 13:46), and then a couple of verses later we are told that "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).  These two statements dovetail together perfectly in God's economy, however in our finite minds sometimes have trouble grasping this truth.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 21:49:26 by spurly »

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #27 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 21:44:21 »
The sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man working together in salvation is something that has been discussed by sages for ages.  One of the most enlighening passages on this occurred after Paul and Barnabas spoke the gospel in Pisidian Antioch.  We read that there were some who repudiated the good news and did not judge themselves worth of eternal life (Acts 13:46), and then a couple of verses later we are told that "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).  These two statements dovetail together perfectly in God's economy, however in man's our finite minds sometimes have trouble grasping this truth.

I agree Spurly, it is somehow BOTH God's soverignty and man's free will.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 22:01:28 by Jaime »

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #28 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 23:17:19 »
Wow - how this thread has changed  ::noworries::
 

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #29 on: Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 23:24:20 »
You're relatively new here, aren't you?  This happens every three months.  It's like those little family traditions at holidays that annoy you, but are so familiar they're somehow comforting.

::shrug::

da525382

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #30 on: Sat Nov 03, 2007 - 17:13:18 »

OK Don, you have the last word...........Please

Okay, I will:  the last word, as always, I defer to scripture.

da525382

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Re: The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue
« Reply #31 on: Sat Nov 03, 2007 - 17:17:02 »
The sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man working together in salvation is something that has been discussed by sages for ages.  One of the most enlighening passages on this occurred after Paul and Barnabas spoke the gospel in Pisidian Antioch.  We read that there were some who repudiated the good news and did not judge themselves worth of eternal life (Acts 13:46), and then a couple of verses later we are told that "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).  These two statements dovetail together perfectly in God's economy, however in man's our finite minds sometimes have trouble grasping this truth.

I agree Spurly, it is somehow BOTH God's soverignty and man's free will.

No, it is God's sovereignty period.  Man's will is never independent or "free" from God as you use it, and certainly as this passage clearly does not support.  If anything, it is a free agency, granted to us by God, but by no means is man's will independent of God.  It is amazing(but quite characteristic) how man looks into the face of God so hideously and demands from Him his right to have a free will independent of God and to demand it first from God before he even considers relating back to Him.  The pot, of course, directs the potter.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 03, 2007 - 17:43:01 by da525382 »

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Free Will: Split from "The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue" thread
« Reply #32 on: Sat Nov 03, 2007 - 18:27:40 »
I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.


You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again. 

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him. 


You sure are dogmatic for a guy that apparently hates my dogmatic ways.

BTW, man has free will or God is unjust if anyone is going to hell, and I believe there will be many entering into the wide gate. (by choice)



Au Contrair Mi Capitan!

Read Romans 9. 

Quote
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
   "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
      and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.


 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?


 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Offline Jaime

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Re: Free Will: Split from "The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue" thread
« Reply #33 on: Sun Nov 04, 2007 - 19:51:00 »
Obviously I was being sarcastic to make a point. God is never unjust.

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Re: Free Will: Split from "The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue" thread
« Reply #34 on: Sun Nov 04, 2007 - 20:29:48 »
2 quick points.  1 On baptism most Christian groups do pratice baptism (it may not be immersion and they may not view it as for the remission of sins but baptism none the less.  Others do not understand it to be a condition of salvation.  This is not willful disobedience. I don't understand why we expect doctrinal purity when we are but fail men.  2. On man' s free will vs God's sovernty.  God knows all.  He knows who will be saved and who will be lost.  Call it whatever you want but God knows.  We are obsessed as humans on being in charge but  all we can do is ask for God's mercy understanding that He is in charge  Later Johnb