Free Will: Split from "The Spiritual Sword - October 2007 Issue" thread

[da525382]

OK Don, you have the last word...........Please

Okay, I will:  the last word, as always, I defer to scripture.

[da525382]

The sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man working together in salvation is something that has been discussed by sages for ages.  One of the most enlighening passages on this occurred after Paul and Barnabas spoke the gospel in Pisidian Antioch.  We read that there were some who repudiated the good news and did not judge themselves worth of eternal life (Acts 13:46), and then a couple of verses later we are told that "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).  These two statements dovetail together perfectly in God's economy, however in man's our finite minds sometimes have trouble grasping this truth.

I agree Spurly, it is somehow BOTH God's soverignty and man's free will.

No, it is God's sovereignty period.  Man's will is never independent or "free" from God as you use it, and certainly as this passage clearly does not support.  If anything, it is a free agency, granted to us by God, but by no means is man's will independent of God.  It is amazing(but quite characteristic) how man looks into the face of God so hideously and demands from Him his right to have a free will independent of God and to demand it first from God before he even considers relating back to Him.  The pot, of course, directs the potter.

[Bocephus]

I agree Steve. That was a good article. I think and have thought for a long time that differences such as we have seen on this thread are from perspective and semantics. I don't disagree with a thing stated in the article, I still do however believe that salvation is something we must ACCEPT by whatever means, or it is no avail to us. We have the free will to reject or accept. Does acceptance of that salvation mean we saved ourselves, NO. Does rejection mean we condemned ourselves, YES of course. It's God's will that all would be saved. 

Jesus freely gives us the lifejacket. We can freely take it, and enjoy HIS and only his rescue (salvation). Or we can refuse to grab it and doom ourselves to eternal damnation.

BTW, I think Robert's dog died, I haven't seen anything from him in a while.

You know, on this message board, this discussion just never ends.  It really is eternal.
Man has no free will.  Man is not looking for a life jacket.  Man is dead.  He cannot save himself.

These are extremely bright line distinctions in theologic construct that scripture lays out.
It would take hours and hours (which has been done here many times before) to work through these analyses of scripture, and no one would change their belief, as has already been demonstrated here time and time again. 

Suffice it to say, scripture screams our salvation from beginning to end being from God, it never starts with us "screaming" for a life jacket or anything else.  It is from a gracious God who wants us in our own self-imposed death, back with Him and who then provides the way entirely Himself.
Man is awakened and called to recieve Christ.  He does. It is a passive reciept, not active through his own efforts in anyway.  To the extent one chooses Christ is only because God chose Him first, and no other reason, otherwise there is every man-centered stimulus to boast, to boast about  how "well" I understood my own salvation and others didn't......See, look at all those poor saps around me that didn't have the sense, the intellegence, nor the analytical ablilty I did to "accept" God.  Our choice is only because of Him.  Our acceptance is only because of Him.  And both of them are graciously provided through the work of His Holy Spirit.

Who on this board has ever told a relative....."Hey, look, buddy, really REACH down into your own faculties,  come on, GET SMART, accept Jesus".   Who here would reject the notion that we are to pray that GOD OPEN THE MINDS AND HEARTS of those we love who need the gospel.....which all of us do all the time.  God's move is always precedent to and the generation of our "acceptance", thanks be and glory be to Him. 

You sure are dogmatic for a guy that apparently hates my dogmatic ways.

BTW, man has free will or God is unjust if anyone is going to hell, and I believe there will be many entering into the wide gate. (by choice)

Au Contrair Mi Capitan!

Read Romans 9. 

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
   "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
      and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

[Jaime]

Obviously I was being sarcastic to make a point. God is never unjust.

[Johnb]

2 quick points.  1 On baptism most Christian groups do pratice baptism (it may not be immersion and they may not view it as for the remission of sins but baptism none the less.  Others do not understand it to be a condition of salvation.  This is not willful disobedience. I don't understand why we expect doctrinal purity when we are but fail men.  2. On man' s free will vs God's sovernty.  God knows all.  He knows who will be saved and who will be lost.  Call it whatever you want but God knows.  We are obsessed as humans on being in charge but  all we can do is ask for God's mercy understanding that He is in charge  Later Johnb

[Jaime]

2 quick points.  1 On baptism most Christian groups do pratice baptism (it may not be immersion and they may not view it as for the remission of sins but baptism none the less.  Others do not understand it to be a condition of salvation.  This is not willful disobedience. I don't understand why we expect doctrinal purity when we are but fail men.  2. On man' s free will vs God's sovernty.  God knows all.  He knows who will be saved and who will be lost.  Call it whatever you want but God knows.  We are obsessed as humans on being in charge but  all we can do is ask for God's mercy understanding that He is in charge  Later Johnb

Yes God is in charge and knows ALL. He knows who is going to chose, by free will, to come to Christ. He has to, he knows the beginning from the end. He exists at the same time in the past, present and future.

No need for the Great Commission if free will is not involved.

[da525382]

2 quick points.  1 On baptism most Christian groups do pratice baptism (it may not be immersion and they may not view it as for the remission of sins but baptism none the less.  Others do not understand it to be a condition of salvation.  This is not willful disobedience. I don't understand why we expect doctrinal purity when we are but fail men.  2. On man' s free will vs God's sovernty.  God knows all.  He knows who will be saved and who will be lost.  Call it whatever you want but God knows.  We are obsessed as humans on being in charge but  all we can do is ask for God's mercy understanding that He is in charge  Later Johnb

Yes God is in charge and knows ALL. He knows who is going to chose, by free will, to come to Christ. He has to, he knows the beginning from the end. He exists at the same time in the past, present and future.

No need for the Great Commission if free will is not involved.

So, then, if God therefore knows exactly who will not choose him from the beginning, why then did He create them to begin with?  Why would he knowingly create these people, this whole "race" of people who will not choose Him, if Hell is only a possibility?

[Johnb]

da
are you disagreeing with me or Janine or both?

[da525382]

da
are you disagreeing with me or Janine or both?

Johnb,

I am agreeing with you.  The sovereignty of God does control all.  I simply think that the teaching over our lives about man's free will is contrary to that, and that man's freedom to choose exists in the context of God's sovereignty and is not therefore free or independent of Him, which traditionally has been the implication in the use of the phrase "man's free will".

[OkiMar]

Jaime,

You are correct IMO. To say that God is sovereign does not necessitate that God controls our actions and thoughts. Joshua, inspired by the Holy Spirit, stated, "Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
I would contend that we can neither serve in sincerity if our actions are controlled nor can we choose if our actions are controlled. ISTM, that if God controls all, He also controls sin, but we know that God is not capable of sin because of His nature. 

[Johnb]

da

I thought that was what you were saying.  You and I agreeing on a point.  Now that is scary.   Later Johnb

[da525382]

da

I thought that was what you were saying.  You and I agreeing on a point.  Now that is scary.   Later Johnb

Well, I guess it's because it's still fairly close to Halloween....sorry to spook you Johnb!  Maybe I'm just getting too old, but I don't remember disagreeing with you about anything, in fact have always enjoyed reading your posts......

[Johnb]

da
I know I was just trying to lighten things up.  Such a serious discusion over something we have no control over; trying to tell God how He should handle my affairs.  We have some differences but not enought to worry about.  Later Johnb

[Harold]

Are you saying God believes for you?

FTL

[Johnb]

Harold I guess that question was for me.  The answer is God knows if He knows who will and who will not be saved it can be no other way.  I choose not to drive myself and others nuts over the mechanics or theology of that.  "We have free will...but God know who will come so do we really have a choice..."  We could do another 14 pages but in the end God will still be sovern and in-charge. Later Johnb